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have experience with them. I will of course audition them extensively but things to listen for as indicators or experience with reliability is much appreciated.Melody AN 211 amplifier 16 watt SET based on the 211 output tube. I liked some other Melody amps but this one the dealer liked best - and I do like the Jinro and Ongaku as the only other 211 based tubes I've heard.
http://www.divineaudio.co.uk/hi-fi/amplifiers/integrated-amplifiers/melody-an-211-integrated-valve-amplifier/prod_2637.html?review=write
The other amp is the Line Magnetic 219a (pictured) which I did audition and it sounded terrific. The appeal this amp has is not in the looks department but it seems to offer a lot of power and tube choice options. Line Magnetic is designed from the original Western Electrics and apparently they were in the WE restoration business for years until now making their own.The downside is that the Line Magnetic weighs 3 times more than the Melody. The 219 is something like 140lbs and it's physically big. I can overcome that but I want them to put wheels on it.
Scroll down to the bottom to read about it.
Edits: 04/22/12 04/22/12Follow Ups:
unfortunately, the dealer was sort of new to low wattage stuff and had the speakers hooked up to the Joseph Audio flagship speaker. The amp did not have enough juice to play that speaker (meter spent way too much time at the top of the range) and so it sounded somewhat dynamically "polite" (no obviously heavy distortion/clippling). It sounded nice, but, I would like to hear it with something more efficient--which the dealer is supposedly getting. The high end also sounded a bit soft and rounded too.
This is a BIG amp and it looks quite nice. I did not get to see inside, and because of the covers, I could not determine how big are the output transformers.
I notice that the company is quite big into vintage Western Electric gear. If we are lucky, they will be able to reproduce some of the old Western speakers and the Jensen speakers that were made for Western.
Buy AMERICAN - IF ITS WELL MADE AND FAIRLY PRICED !!!
Edits: 04/23/12 04/23/12
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Beatnik's stuff http://web.me.com/jnr1/Site/Beatniks_Pictures.html
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Beatnik's stuff http://web.me.com/jnr1/Site/Beatniks_Pictures.html
So the appeal of buying American is no different to me than buying Chinese.
And most of the parts in American made amps are still Chinese. I'm not going to allow border politics make decisions for me - something is either better or it is not - where it is made to me is irrelevant.
I won't hold a company and workers responsible for their government's politics and human rights records. Indeed, they are generally improving while in the U.S. and Canada (where I'm from) it seems to me that worker's rights and worker treatment is going in the wrong direction (getting worse). Hellooooo Wal-Mart.
Further Americans are the one's importing the gear and selling it and repairing them. So there is still money in it heading to Americans/Canadians.
.
A USA amp made with USA iron is really, really hard to beat. You can't trick physics: you need pure iron, copper, winding skill and proper engineering. Every transformer I have seen out of third world country is a huge compromise with usually a metal cover hiding the crap inside.
And please, agreeing that the USA worker is subjected to the pay and conditions found in those foreign sweatshops is a bit off-putting.
Perhaps I shouldn't feel defensive about such posts at this point, but I can't help it. This kind of generalization perpetuates falsehoods that hurt my business.For one thing, not many USA made amps actually use USA iron, even if they do their own winding, and certainly it's impossible to use only US sourced parts. Quality level varies significantly just like any other country of origin. The blatant generalization shows a lack of understanding about both modern manufacturing and the audio business. I can't speak to a comparison between the Melody amp and the others suggested here since I haven't heard them, but I can tell you that Melody uses quality parts and first rate construction.
It's a privately owned factory built by Melody, and many employees are family members. Here is a nice tour of the Melody "sweatshop."
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/roadtourchina/melody_2.html
I've certainly been in factories in the US with worse conditions. Also note some of the pictures of the "crap inside the metal covers" being made as they hand-wind all of their transformers. (even interstage and balancing transformers) The C-Cores in the ANXX series are imported from Japan, btw. You'll also see such crap as Jensen and Mundorf capacitors, huge chokes, and point to point wiring. Also notice the terrible quality control featuring capacitor testing, tube burn-in testing, amp burn-in racks, extensive measurement equipment, and a "noise sniffing" room for finished products. As an example of how superior "made in USA" gear is, Genesis amps have come out of that factory in the past.
This article shows the transformer used in the AN211 and AN300B (the AN300b has been updated since these pictures were taken)
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/roadtourchina/sidebar_melody.html
Like I said, I don't know which amp discussed here is the best, but I would encourage the OP not to rule out Chinese amps (doesn't sound like he is) and to give the AN211 a listen if possible. I wouldn't say it beats the dramatically no-holds-barred Ongaku, and I've heard both, but it certainly shares sonic similarities. It is a special amp though, and to achieve maybe 85% of the Ongaku at about 5.9% of the price (US pricing) is an impressive feat to say the least. Stereomojo recently named it best integrated of 2011. (http://www.stereomojo.com/2011%20Stereomojo%20Products%20of%20the%20Year/2011PRODUCTSOFTHEYEAR.htm) Unfortunately they've been dragging their feet a bit on getting the full review finished.I've included a picture of its internals for reference.
Tim Evans
East Street Audio
Edits: 04/27/12 04/27/12 04/27/12
"For one thing, not many USA made amps actually use USA iron, even if they do their own winding, and certainly it's impossible to use only US sourced parts. "
Isn't that the sorry truth.
We have people like you to thank.
You know nothing about the mentioned products and didn't answer the question. You respond with misinformation and stereotypes. You win ignorant post of the day. Congrats!
BTW-
Linn= Scotland
Dynaudio= Denmark
The poster said "So the appeal of buying American is no different to me than buying Chinese."
Are Scotland and Denmark in china? Are Scotland and Denmark third world countries?
You win ignorant post of the day. Congrats!
I agree with the notion that there are indeed sweatshops in China. However, like most stereotypes you can't generalize the few to be representative of ALL.
Line Magnetic and Melody have been OEM for numerous American and Italian and Japanese brands who put Made in Japan, Made in Italy, Made in America stickers on their amps - so the laws governing labeling is questionable (when you cut government bodies that check on that stuff - that's what happens.
I lived in Mainland China and I saw terrible working conditions by any North America standard. But I also saw some good ones.
The Asian market is loaded with money - they're the ones buying all the $100,000 British Made Audio Note preamps. The dealer in Hong Kong probably sells to rich Chinese who vacation in Hong Kong wanting the best. All the money is in Asia.
So the Chinese makers who build for their own market have to be good in order to compete - they have to be much better in fact because the Rich Chinese ALSO view Chinese made stuff as being inferior. Reputations once earned are very difficult to overcome (see American piles of junk cars through all of the 80's and 90s and even now they're looked at sideways despite the Japanese quality falling off a cliff)
To be fair though you really should look to these better makers - Steven Rochlin of enjoythtmusic.com did a big factory tour through the Chinese tube amp makers availabe at their site.
Another from 6moons http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/roadtourchina/melody.html
Pay is lower but cost of living is lower - the key is whether the wage is reasonable to the cost of living of the city in which you live. I'm a teacher in B.C. Canada - my wage in terms of buying power is 50% of what it was in the mid 1980s. Like I said - we're going in the wrong direction.
Line Magnetic is here (none of these are deplorable working conditions).
RGA-
The Line Magnetic amps use mostly imported parts and iron. They wind their own transformers using wire and cores from Europe. Same goes for the caps, depending on the model, I've seen custom made Jensen's, Mallory's, Sprague's etc. They're hand made by a small group of guys/gals in a very clean, very modern and very pleasant facility. I can tell you that since dealing with them over the past two years, they have been closed numerous times for vacations, they don't work weekends or long days. No sweat shop here. So the stereotypes do not apply here as Chris O likes to paint with. I do agree that many Chinese made products are very poorly built. Not all, not by a wide margin. Funy thing is, some very popular US and Japanese made products, as you pointed out, are made by Line Magnetic and other Chinese brands.
Back in 2005, I and a friend were approached by a Chinese manufacturer at CES. He showed us pictues of their plant. In the photos you could clearly see many VERY expensive "US made" speakers being produced. One photo showed a "Made in CT." badge on the rear of a massive and over $50K speaker.
So ignore the tags and supposed country of origins and listen.
I have had much better luck (sound quality, build quality and longevity) with USA wound transformers and amps than I have had with Chinese amps.
If you like the Chinese amp, go for it. We (and even Canada) are a free country, for now.
The problem comes down to comparing what to what? Which specific Chinese amp versus which specific American amp.
I've heard several American amps and I see most people seem to compare $10k American amps with the $299 Vuum or $999 Jolida/Antique Sound Labs of the world.
My first tube amp was going to be the 202a from Jolida as a second hand piece. I went to audition it and it failed. - they repaired it - I went back two weeks later - it failed again. Apparently the first fail it had caught on fire. This was back when it was made in America. I've had an ASL headphone amp for over 10 years and never once had a problem (but interestingly this model of ASL had had some people on forums questioning the build. It's not neatly put together in a seamless way perhaps.
The Grant Fidelity Rita sounds better and is built better than the McIntosh 275 (arguably the best and only McIntosh worth buying). I can guarantee that no one will walk away from that amp thinking that it isn't well made. Sonic interpretations ok - it is KT88 and not everyone likes that but ...
your view that the G.F. Rita is better built amp than the Mc 275 is a bunch of crap, not sure how you came up with that. (or even care)
Well I reviewed the Rita - and I've used the 275. The 275 is the best amp I've heard from McIntosh. Personally I would not buy either amplifier because while I do like the sound of them I happen to like the Single Ended presentation more than Push Pull.
Edits: 04/28/12
For your info, the above recommended Monaco 845 output transformers are made in Taiwan.
I own American made SET amp with Japanese output transformers that looks like a home brew project, an American made autoformer base preamp that has the worst rigged chassis, wish their fit and finish can match products from some third world countries.
by Wan Electric Wire & Cable Mfg., Co., Ltd. Some of the best hook-up in the world is made in Taiwan.
Guys,
With all of the Aye Rand quoting, on the take Law Makers in this great nation coupled with the Fox News propaganda, we are ALREADY on the fast track to 3rd world status...the argument is basically NULL...
Go with your ears....
Stuben
:)
The thing is, and Peter Qvortrup pointed this out decades ago - Asian audiophiles have always been in love with tube amps. Some credit should go to the fact that they can hear!
So it strikes me that some of these guys would be hugely passionate about sound - and now they have money in China they are following their passion and trying to take over. Japan did that with cars - or would have if they were not number of sales limited.
I think that the better makers really do care about making quality products. Some don't - but that's true of any market.
And to be blunt - because China has this bad reputation (and maybe not for much longer) now is the time to be able to buy the stuff at a somewhat affordable price. The LM 219IA looks like a $50k amp in person.
I have the little Line Magnetic Mini 218 IA. I use it mostly as a headphone amp, but got crazy one day and used it on my Teresonics, it was a really good sound. I like it better than any Melody amp I have heard. I have heard several of Line Magnetic amps and their speakers and I have been very impressed.
Beatnik's stuff http://web.me.com/jnr1/Site/Beatniks_Pictures.html
Thanks Jack - I read your take over on Tone Imports.
The little 218ia 3 watter the dealer here had them driving the ZU Audio Essence and he claims they drive the "ATC 150 better than you think."
The unit has some appeal as well since I brought my HD 600 headphones with me.
If you are "set" on an 845 (pun intended), the new Trafomatic Fusion looks interesting (use the link below and scroll down a bit). You can use either 2A3 or 45 driver tubes. The only problem is that it may be very expensive.
Gerry
Perhaps some refinement of the front panel and switch gear might improve things a little, but I like the looks of the Line Magnetic (note: I have not seen them in the flesh). Much modern audio equipment seems to have the human character polished out to a cold, sterile, fashionable sheen.Cheers.
Edits: 04/23/12
They look old school - and there's nothing really wrong with that. According to the Shindo U.S. importer both Shindo and Line Magnetic are based on the original designs from Western Electric. Both using better newer parts parts I should imagine.They look military style to me as if it would be in the cockpit of a B-52.
The Melody AN 211 looks absolutely stunning and has been well reviewed - but there is something to LM I can't quite put my finger on - perhaps a slight grab you by the scruff of the neck and drag you into the music - a little less finesse and smoothness of the finer tube designs but a little more bubbly and entertaining and ballsy - which isn't such a bad thing.
The 211 may cater to classical more while the 219 will let you rattle the walls with Slipknott.
I mean check out this monstrosity - I have never seen anything quite like it - it looks like it should be in Frankenstein's lab. The nice thing is that it has wheels.
Edits: 04/23/12 04/23/12
I guess you need to know what kind of presentation you would like in the long run. Sometimes what grabs us initially fails to draw us into the music - or even becomes a barrier to musical enjoyment - in the longer term. A pair of Duntech Statesman speakers taught me this lesson. Vice versa, often what we do not notice initially - or may not even be aware of - is what significantly contributes to lasting musical satisfaction.
Of course, I am just repeating what you would already know, but perhaps a reminder might not go astray.
Best wishes for your search - no doubt you will come to a decision that suits you well.
Cheers.
The other issue of course is system synergy. I am pretty good at picking up on the "exciting" sound that I know over time may irritate me. Occasionally it slips past my radar so fortunately I am not in a rush and can go back and audition several times.
I did buy the LM CD 215 (not available in the US yet I believe)- it's the best CD player I've ever owned. Audio Note is the best I've heard for CD replay due likely to zero oversampling and no filters - but again the prices are out of reach - Can always add a DAC later should it be deemed necessary.
I recommend you try a KR Audio VA350 if you want that kind of power. I have heard a lot of the best 845 and 211 based tube amps (including those from Kondo and AN UK) and the KR best them with a purity and bass control the others can't touch. No other SET controls a speaker this well. Also, they avoid the overly lush sound that many have due to transformer overload/distortion.
Do you have a price on this one?
Thanks for reminding me of KR Audio - I liked them at CES. They also have a distributor in HK so I will head down and listen - even if they're way out of my price range.
I can understand why these amps interest you: A Meishu silver line is $11K, a Jinro is $25K, an Ongaku is $110K. A pair of Conquest Silvers (18W) is $16K and an M5 to go with it is somewhere between $12-15K.
All of these AN amps have double C-Core output transformers. What is the construction of the OPTs in the Line_Magnetic 45 integrated? And what about all those switches, dials and variable-defeatable NFB? They add noise at the very least, and why do you want any NFB? Are you even sure it doesn't use local feedback?
And the weight, of course. I think it would make a very rigid frame for a combination hotdog cart/hi-fi systems.
Personally, I would go for the Meishu S or SS with a pair of Sophia Royal Princess tubes, and a decent WWII 6SN7-GT for the preamp. Different makes of these have quite an impact on the tone.
Observe, don't think
Audio Note is simply too expensive a much as I like them their entry level 300B is the Meishu and it really is designed for AN speakers and HE speakers. Part of the appeal of the LM gear was that it effortlessly drove the ATC SCM 150 (a notoriously difficult to drive loudspeaker). Further it is dual mono.The transformers are EI not C Core - which I agree is something to consider but then again the OTO sounds wonderful and it is EI.
The Melody 211 is C core.
My interest in part also lies with the fact that the U.S. importer of Shindo has also brought in Line Magnetic so their ears and my ears are hearing these roughly the same.
All the extra switches like feedback control raises eyebrows but ultimately it comes down to sound quality - I won't penalize something merely for having features or remote controls. The Jinro is ideal but the cost is out of reach. The Melody amp advertises that it is trying to beat the Ongaku at a much lower price. I got a kick out of that cause they know what the best is and they advertise the fact they want to beat it. They use C cores and silver caps so there is some appeal. It looks basically like a lower power version of the Ongaku. We'll see - err hear.
Edits: 04/23/12
see link
http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb071998.htm
My Meishu sounds gorgeous on LS3/5A speakers 83db efficient (+11 Ohms ave impedance, never below 8 ohms). I was tipped onto this by a Chinese acquaintance and Peter, grudgingly, noted that his equipment "sounds good" on these speakers. My other speakers are J's, which I also use with Fi Audio 2A3s. The Fi 300B monos are also fantastic amps and Don has upgraded to Hashimoto OPTs on them and the 2A3s.If you're going to try to audition Sibelius, Mahler or Bruckner symphonies using any kind of gear, the odds are stacked against you because, unless you are in a symphony hall (or Yankee stadium) your ears either can't hear or stand both ends of the dynamic swings, depending on how you adjust the volume (to hear the quiet end or not become deaf from the loud end). These guys music poses the same problems as ACDC.
But for all the rest - you don't need high sensitivity (100dB +) amps with tubes, if the electrical load is benign. For SS, the best strategy to set the volume loud and insert ear plugs as the crescendo approaches. The best over-all strategy is to live with the existing trade-offs between an easy load and very high sensitivity....I think.
By the way, AN Js and Es are said to measure lower sensitivity than AN advertises, even when you stick them in corners, according to some of my danish DIY speaker buddies. (I haven't measured them).
Observe, don't think
Edits: 04/23/12
are you sure that you need that much power in your SET? if you have efficient speakers, many, me included, like simple SETs with 300b, 2A3, or 45 output tubes. i recommend auditioning a low power SET (i know that may not be easy to do) before making your choice.
in any event, all the best on your SET journey!
-andre d
Well normally I agree - I have an Audio Note OTO Phono SE which is about 10 watts (generous rating - it is 4.2 watts undistorted according to Hi-Fi Choice) and it has no problem driving my AN J speakers.
Line Magnetic does offer an 8W 300B. I will consider it.
However, I am a reviewer and down the road I may review somewhat more difficult to drive loudspeakers. So a 16 or 24 watt set is likely overkill now but may be handy later.
I liked the KT88 push pull amps the least - they sounded more SS and leaner than I liked.
...the LM 219IA with the lower priced LM 218IA yet?
You mentioned that the KT88 based integrated (LM 216IA) sounded leaner and more SS than you like. Would you characterize the EL34 based LM 211IA in the same way?
TIA for any comments on comparisons.
Sorry I should be clear.
I auditioned the Melody KT 88 based amplifier and greatly preferred the less expensive Line Magnetic EL 34 based integrated on the ATC SCM 150 speakers. Despite the EL 34 having less powered it had much richer bass depth and had more "feeling."
But this is not apples to apples comparing brands because KT 88s generally always sound leaner and too solid state like for my taste. The Melody was by no means bad it's just a presentation that I didn't like as much.
The dealer was out of stock on the 218 which seems to be one of their best sellers so I am waiting for it to come in.
My speakers are quite happy with 5 watts so power is less the concern it's the quality of sound. I'll take midrange liquidity over absolute bass depth.
My other option I suppose is to buy a few of the less expensive amps
LM has sounded really good on both the ATC SCM 150 82dbish speakers and the Zu Audio Essence which is the only speaker the dealer here sells. The main reason they attracted my attention in the first place was they could drive very different speakers with very different sensitivities.
The KR amps mentioned by Morricab hold appeal. But I get the sense it will be much more costly.
The great difficulty is getting all the amps in the same room with the same speakers. I would not wish to say one amp brand will sound better than another because I've found it to be speaker dependent. For example AN amplifiers are all designed specifically for the load behavior of AN speakers. The transformer is designed and build specifically for the speaker - so it may very well be bested by others on a different set of loudspeakers. What is also true is that those others may sound brutal on AN speakers.
The Grant Fidelity Rita doesn't sound as good as the OTO on the AN J or AN E for example but sounds MUCH better driving Martin Logans than the OTO. Part of that is the massive power supplies in the GF but massive can tend to bully.
The 219 is the first experience with the 845 output tube. The 218 is simpler - so it could be better - but I dunno the 219 sounded very good in the 2 hours I auditioned it.
I'll keep going back. Not in a big rush.
Boy, that is not my experience at all.
My experience is that the EL34 has a nice mid-range, bloated bass and the treble has a towel thrown over it (Rogue Atlas and Quick Silver Mini-mites).
My experience with KT88/6550 tubes in my mini-mites and a custom class A PP triode is that they have a rich, powerful mid-range sound that is exquisite for listening to Peter Gilmore play the guitar; have proper highs, much better than the EL34, and really excell in the bass. (I use GE 6550 and the Chinese GEKT88 tubes, the latter of which is a copy of the GEC hard plates and is bargain tube with great sound).
Of course we don't all hear or prefer the same sounds in the same way, but I wouldn't give up on the KT88, before trying some other amps. They also make a nice sound in SE mode, if you have ever listened to the old AN Kit 1.
As I mentioned above, Don Garber's 2A3 and 300B amps represent a much lower cost bargain to great sound than AN. But he doesn't make an integrated (yet) and the wait is over a year! Read the Jeff Day reviews of these in 6M. I think Art Dudley may also have reviewed the 300b monos a while back.
Good luck.
Observe, don't think
Its true we all hear differently. I owned the Fi amps. Several of them actually. It took me awhile to recognize that these are quite possibly the most overrated amps on the planet. My hi-fi friends and myself own nearly 50 amplifiers past and present. I was the only one that liked Fi amps. Not anymore. Totally bleached out, dry, harmonically threadbare and downright boring. We tube rolled, cable swapped, speaker swapped. Always the same. Piano has no wood, voices have no weight. Like they went through a washing machine. I now own the Line Magnetic 219 among other amps, no contest. Line Magnetic is much better sounding in every way. To each his own I suppose.
James
".. but I'm a reviewer... Good for you . It's the only way for a poor guy to acquire expensive equipment almost free by confusing and corrupting gullible minds ;) P.Q is known of not spoiling reviewers with freebes but there are other brands to pimp out. Don't get me wrong , I like your posts .
Couldn't you become a taxi driver or pimping out girls ? Little more ethical and less damaging to yourself and a public activities?
best of luck , W
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