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Ha, just kidding.Now that I have your attention, does a post asking about cable technical measurements belong here or cable asylum? My concern is that Cable Asylum may be dilluted to the point, there's nothing there but ads, lol. Just kidding.
Now to the crux of the matter:
I would like to be able to measure capacitance, resistance, any pertinant empirical data of cables I build. Unfortunately, I am technically inept in this area. I bought a capacitance meter, but I don't think it will measure at the level I need to. Any ideas how I accomplish this? I am quite serious about wanting to take my technical knowledge to the next level, above a continuity test. But EE was never my strongsuite or background.
Sure, I buy the best materials I can find, to get the best numbers I can. It's just what are those numbers!
Ideas? Tips?
Follow Ups:
Hello Doug,Even though you said you were 'kidding', your concern that "the Cable Asylum may be diluted to the point, there's nothing there but ads,.." is an interesting one.
I believe it was always intended that:
The Cable Asylum was for Cable Stuff without DBT and
The Propellor Head Plaza was for Cable Stuff with DBT.What however, appears to have occurred is that the Propellor Head Plaza, possibly because it provides a forum for objectivists (by allowing DBT discussions) has also become a place for other objectivists, hence the proliferation of cable test discussion on the Plaza.
Any Thoughts Guys?
HAVE FUN,
The Cable Asylum was for Cable Stuff without DBT and
The Propellor Head Plaza was for Cable Stuff with DBT.Seems to me that if all we discuss here are cables with respect to DBTs, we'll run out of stuff to discuss pretty quick, or simply start repeating ourselves over and over.
I think there has probably been a pent up need at AA to discuss cables and DBTs, and people here have had a chance to discuss that subject, but it seems to me there is only so far one can go with that subject.
As I see it, the questions of cables and DBTs primarily boils down to whether the following proposition is valid: cables of similar gauge and length can be responsible for audible sonic differences.
Now, if someone can take two different cables and in a valid blind test, that is verifiable and repeatable, establish that the listeners were able to distinguish between the two cables, they have proved the validity of that statement. To the best of my knowledge that has not been done, and unless and until it is, a lot of discussion (including my own) about DBTs is pretty much mental masturbation.
In addition, as I see it, to make matters worse, while there have been sporadic cable DBTs reported that produced null results, none of them as far as I can tell were conducted in a manner that would make the results reliable. This may not be particularly significant because no matter how many valid tests with null results were to be performed, they never could completely disprove the validity of that statement; it being up to the proponents of the its validity to produce one valid, repeated blind test demonstrating its validity. However, to the extent such prior DBT results get tossed around as if they were valid tests, when in fact they may not have been, the issue simply gets more clouded, and the more clouded the issue gets the more emotional the discussion of it seems to get.
Hello Phil,Sorry for the late reply. It probably would have been better if AT THE TIME I would have said:
The Cable Asylum was for Cable Stuff without DBT and
The Propellor Head Plaza was for Cable Stuff with DBT -if desired. I did not mean to imply that this was a forum only for cable posts which included DBT, but rather that it was a forum for cable posts which could include DBT (or other) tests. This and more is either eveident or can be inferred from the banner, unfortunately it was hiding from me (that is the positive spin on "I didn't notice it") when I posted.HAVE FUN,
However, to the extent such prior DBT results get tossed around as if they were valid tests, when in fact they may not have been, the issue simply gets more clouded, and the more clouded the issue gets the more emotional the discussion of it seems to get.Interesting observation, methinks. I've never heard of a cable brand or model named "cloud". While a Rolls Royce Silver Cloud would be a most desirable "driving machine", I doubt anybody would want a cable whose name suggested the antithesis of clarity. I hope no one suggests otherwise, and further cloud the issue. :--)
I certainly hope your post doesn't further cloud my clear-as-day post, thus making it more difficult to weather this stormy discussion. I will assume that your post was nothing more than an attempt to introduce a fresh breeze into the dialog by sprinkling it with some of your dry humor, rather than an attempt to flood this thread with thunderous language that seeks to strike at the heart of the matter like a bolt of lightning.And, BTW, what are you and I doing hanging out on the internet on such a glorious Phoenix day as today?
I thought this forum was created to remove the technical discussion from the cable site. Hence, the "technical" banner at the top of the page.My only "dilution" concern was that only the tech heads like me would frequent this site, and I felt that the non techie input would be lost. (somebody has to keep us straight) But it doesn't appear that way.
As far as I am concerned, there is no need to take non-DBT technical issues out of the Cable Asylum forum.
It's the question of effectiveness of any given technique.And it's a compelling reason why the cable asylum should be limited to NO technology postings.
JJ - Philalethist and Annoyer of Bullies
> > It's the question of effectiveness of any given technique.Cant you make the same argument for 16bit PCM vs 24bit PCM vs DSD vs analog, various amplification designs, etc.....
IOW, we can get rid of the zillion asylum forums and have one big mess instead.
Lame!
JJ - Philalethist and Annoyer of Bullies
""As far as I am concerned, there is no need to take non-DBT technical issues out of the Cable Asylum forum"" Jon R.Was the prop head forum decided upon solely to allow DBT?
My take was it was to pull tech talk into a new category, and relieve the headaches of the people who didn't want to talk tech.And I'm still unsure if the split was the correct way to go. But, I accept it.
Hello Jon,I take your point regarding that "there is no need to take non-DBT technical issues out of the Cable Asylum forum", but John E makes a good point regarding the banner indicating that the Plaza (I love that name) is a place for "Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics". The banner clearly encourages technical and scientific discussion (including DBT) at the Plaza, probably at the detriment of other forums, since posting the same question across multiple forums is not appropriate.
Right or wrong, and judging by recent posts in both forums, I believe what the plaza has created is a more comfortable home / focused discussion for objectivists, whilst also providing a more comfortable home / focused discussion for subjectivists at the Cable asyslum. Is this good or bad? Ahhhhhhhhhh???????
Food for thought,
Joey, it has gone that way, but it should not be necessarily that way. This should be a place for the technically inclined to talk 'turkey' without worrying about leaving some behind who are not at all technical. I think that I understand Jon R's position on DBT and this forum is allowing people to give their personal experiences with cables easier now than previously, on the 'cable' section. John R is an engineer, who has done quite a bit of original work on cables and distortion measurements. He just doesn't want the 'hear no difference' crowd to DEMAND DB tests according to their formula. It is almost impossible to tell the difference between almost any component with an ABX test, so long as the gain and the frequency response are matched within about .1 dB, and the distortion is fairly low. I challenge you or anyone else to try it yourself, if you don't believe me. If the ABX tests are accurate, then we are wasting our time here. If they are not accurate, then we still have to use our ears in more open tests, in order to improve our audio products. Of course, it would be great if we could measure the differences that we hear. That is what you, I and Jon R attempt to do.
Well in most instances these certain ratings you speak of cannot be replicated(db levs,Distortion & the like).Switchboxes will add another dimmention.Then you get to the point of the synergy issue where a set of cables or whatever might not work in a particular system as opposed to another.
That is what I am trying to get at as far as synergy.If it be a marketing term then I don't have a problem with it as long as I am not the one doing the buying of the products or they have done research into the product to see what might work best or have issues with the products it works with.
The tests I will do involveing Cryo treated cables will not have these problems and will be intresting.I might have a few people over to see listen so the testing will not be skewed with my subjective opinion.I will ask people to leave the room several times to switchout the cables and tally their opinions.
Hello John,We are largely in agreement on these issues, but in your post, whilst I am not absolutely sure, I get a hint that you may feel that I am attacking Jon R in my response. IF YOU HAVE THIS VIEW, then let me make clear that nothing could be further from the truth and that this was not intended . Sorry if any noses are out of joint. I was simply trying to rationalise the difference in the two forums, which in light of the 'guiding objectives' of the banner will polarise the debate, into seperate forums.
HAVE FUN,
Hi Joey, I was not sure of your knowledge of Jon R's background, so I might fill that in. That is all that I was conveying. I'm OK, you're OK ! ;-)
Sounds like a book a I once read!I won't tell you how the author turned out.
Well, I see it as this, as busy professionals, Sometimes we don't have time to go to many places to scan the headers, see what interests us. So, I see it as well, if I go to the cable forum, I miss what's here, or vice versa. Since I have my own forums, I don't have "that much" time to venture out. Each of us is busy for our own reasons, and it's a matter of priorities. My priority is cables when I am here, not amps or other components, except how a cable might impact one and I could care less about the DBT issue. So, from that perspective, there is indeed dillution here as far as my own needs from this forum and of course, it CAN influence who interacts with what topic which is how it can influence the average user of products, and of course, how it can influence the pros, by being in more of a vaccum. Not a complete one, but at least more of one.Anyway, that's my thought. Sometimes less separation is more.
Hello John,Good point, now that you mention it, I remember reading the banner-oooops. If I had remembered its content I wouldn't have posted.
Thanks
HAVE FUN,
Hello Doug,You said that you bought a capacitance meter, but don't think it will measure at the level you need to. For cable capacitance measurement, for say 1 meter long interconnect cables, you need to be able to measure in the 0 to 100 pF (0 to 0.1 nF) range. Not all meters will go that low.
HAVE FUN,
Maybe I should wait until Doug replies, but he could easily have bought a suitable capacitance meter. I bought one for $79 or so from Fry's Electronics, and it is extremely sensitive in the 1-200 pF range. So much so that one has to consider lead capacitance to get an accurate reading.BK Precision 810B
Well, I bought one from MCM, it's a BK 875B I think or is it A? It seems unclear. The site below refers to it as A, but it looks like B in the picture. MCM says it's a 875B.Not a cheap meter, but I think it will do what I want to do. Won't it? Granted, more expensive than 75.00. Oh well. I am tired of shipping back and forth, if this one does the job, I am keeping it.
http://www.elexp.com/tst_b875.htm
Measures capacitance - 0.1pf to 20,000uF with 1% accuracy up to 200uF and 2% after that
Measures inductance - 0.1h to 200H; accuracy 2%
Measures dissipation factor of caps and "Q" of inductor
Measures resistance - 1 milli ohm to 20M ohms
3-1/2 digit LCD
Low battery and overload indicator.Since I was told an LCR was the way to go, I chose this over the lesser expensive capacitance meter.
CableLex, you still won't easly measure inductance with this meter. It doesn't go low enough. I have one like it, myself.
Thanks John. I can measure capacitance though, right?From what was said earlier, I felt measuring inductance was likely out of budget at this time. So, what is the least expensive way to measure inductance? Well, is there an affordable way?
CableLex, I hate to tell you this, but you need a better measurement system, if you want to know anything.
Cap meters are cheap and easy, maybe $50 for an OK offshore design. That's what I use. Inductance is different, as it costs big bucks to get enough resolution to actually measure a cable. Even so, who cares? This is not where that action is. By the way, if you know the cable's characteristic impedance, such as 50 ohms, 75 ohms, etc., you can 'derive' the inductance per meter with formulas. These formulas are 'high school' in difficulty.
Thanks for your input John. I must have missed that class in my business and computer studies. Oh, and my high school? Let's not go there! LOL :)So, if you don't mind my asking, where is the action John?
Keep in mind, my primary interest IS cables, not the hardware, except ultimately, of course, I do need that to create sound. :)
I asked a similar question in Cable a while back...Check out this post:http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=cables&n=60355&highlight=jk@home&session=
Let's just say, I may not take it quite this far YET. :) Interesting computations though. LOL
Do a search for "Cacitance Testers" and you will find something that is not to expensive that can do Multi Readings.
How about this one? Not necessarily from this vendor, but maybe. I will likely check someone I have done business with previously first.http://www.elexp.com/tst_b875.htm
Measures capacitance - 0.1pf to 20,000uF with 1% accuracy up to 200uF and 2% after that
Measures inductance - 0.1h to 200H; accuracy 2%
Measures dissipation factor of caps and "Q" of inductor
Measures resistance - 1 milli ohm to 20M ohms
3-1/2 digit LCD
Low battery and overload indicator
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