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In Reply to: RE: cMP - the open source high-end Memory Player posted by cics on December 30, 2007 at 05:42:01
Hi Theo
Since we are going off in a direction tangent to the original "BNC Mod for Juli@" thread - please allow me to start anew, and engage the help of all the Lurkers reading these posts.
To begin, let's jump off from the old discussion:
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OK Grant after one day of listening to external clock I'm convinced. Besides the M audio product that I missed on ebay what else is out there, that is reasonably priced, that provides clocks up to 192?
Clocks matter: Panasonic DVD player good, Oppo 980 not good... what is this all about? There was a clear difference between Panasonic dvd player (circa 1998) and Oppo 980 (circa 2008) and internal Juli@ clock (in between). I don't understand. Anybody understand this?
Maybe its all a matter of clock circuit or power supply to the clock circuit. I dunno but I'll tell you the Panasonic is in for the long term till I can replace with a better one.
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Let me preface these remarks: With respect to the current marketplace, I am not Omnipotent in all current offerings ...AND... do not confuse me with a Real Expert - I'm only reporting on my experiences.
OK... Let The Games Begin !
To all Engaged Readers:
Please post your suggestions/ discoveries/ or explanations of any component you think will meet Theo's criteria. Through collaboration - many eyes in many places - we may yet find the right box for the job.
As I understand it, the device should be 192 KHz-capable via S/PDIF coax, cause the Juli@ to sound better than it does using it's internal oscillator, and be of "reasonable" cost (whatever that means). That is our task...
One fundamental difficulty with The Quest: manufacturers don't see what you need as a product category - a Good, Cheap, Standalone Clock Source. This sort of thing is crucial in the pro recording environment - and priced accordingly - for the excellent performance it delivers. What's a home user gonna do with a $300 clock ?
Theo:
I'm curious at what SR you made these comparisons ? How do you get the DVD players to output anything other than their standard 48 KHz?
I believe you need to find a "reasonable" A-to-D converter - that can run at 192 KHz... and provides S/PDIF coax output to drive the Juli@. Sure... let's think about that.
Here's an interesting note: in both public forums and private correspondence, Elias Gwinn (development engineer at Benchmark) states that chip makers have yet to get 176/192 conversion right. He recommends 96 KHz max for recording, based on the accuracy of current clock circuits. This leads me to believe most pedestrian prosumer A/D units will not shine at the upper SRs. (don't confuse recording@192 with the upsampling done in cPlay)
At sub-KiloBuck prices, you're looking at prosumer/home recording solutions. Most of these connect to the computer via USB, or Firewire... narry an S/PDIF output in sight.
If you're really stuck on 176/192 playback from cPlay, you've got a challenge. Most home recordists don't care about 176/192... 96 KHz is a big deal already. And they just want to plug the damn thing in and go - maybe with their desktop at home and notebook on the road - which means either USB or Firewire - forget PCI and breakout boxes. And THAT'S who the designers are aiming for.
The USB Duo - not to be confused with any current M-Audio offering - was unique (to my knowledge) as being 3 things in one: standalone analogue mic pre-amp, standalone A/D converter via S/PDIF, and directly-USB-connected duplex digital I/O interface.
You need that Duo thing - but running up to 192 KHz. Anybody out there seen one ? I know I haven't (but I've been wrong at least once before).
So Theo, is that enough damage for one post ? I better get off it now so the cMP-ers can scout and report The Grail really does exist !
Cheers,
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
Follow Ups:
I have a shawn fogg modified oppo 980 which I bought to play my sacd's once I sold my scd1. This oppo (modified remember) provides a digital out bit steam of sacd converted to 88khz pcm which my dac will play. The oppo clock, which I have connected to the juli digital in, will reflect any clock associated with whatever disc I am playing. If I play a dvd it shows as 48Khz on the juli panel, on sacd's it shows 88Khz. I bought a 192 khz dvda to see how the clock, when used by juli, would sound through cmp/cplay @ 192. Well I did the experiment and while close, the internal juli clock beats it by a little margin. So I am disappointed by external clock ideas and probably will not buy the ART as a result.Edit: 12/16/08 What a difference a day makes. I left my oppo on all night set at 192 khz and decided I should validate what I experienced and reported here yesterday. Well (he says embarassingly) the oppo clock now sounds better by a small marigin, the opposite of yesterday's experience. I don't know if that part of the oppo circuit needed burning in or what (never played at 192 before) but now it sounds wonderful. Further reporting to be made after prolonged listening..
Edits: 12/16/08
Hi Theo
Happy to read your updated report. The promise was for "a little"... so I guess, it's working out how much that little bit is worth to the individual listener - in the overall context of their system.
Yesterday I called around and found a local dealer with the ART Syncgen in stock and priced at $190 CDN (that's about ten bucks US, I think) - with a 30-day full refund policy. Tempting to test... just for the experience.
BTW, there's a little devil whispering in my ear, ever since I talked with Elias at Benchmark about the "quality" of ADC1's CLOCK-OUT function... He claims it's nothing special, since it's primary purpose (as designed) is to lock up with other ADC1 units... and they don't care about jitter. So what if the ART actually does a better job in this case ? I don't want to know right now... He-he, maybe in January !
Good Luck in your further observations !
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
would you share the name of this dealer?
Hi Theo
I talked with the guys at Long & McQuade - long established in the Toronto market, and now with an extensive network across Canada (...the 53rd state... NO, just kidding !)
Their new website was launched Dec 05, so many many items are yet to be added (http://www.long-mcquade.com/).
I phoned a store and chatted with the Pro Audio/ Recording folks. Very helpful (the guy told me about buying a used Big Ben for $500 - what a steal !).
Hope that's helpful.
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
I contacted them and nobody it seems wants to return my calls or emails. It seems they don't want to sell stuff. Who did you talk to?
Edits: 12/18/08
Hi Theo
I don't recall the name of the gentleman who I talked to, but he was in the Pro Audio/ Recording department (and very knowledgeable). I was put through right away when I called the store.
Try this location and let us know what happens.
Good Luck...
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
thanks
Hey guys Antelope OCX clocks are on sale for $999.00 at SweetWater; has an spdif out. Go ahead Theo its Christmas spoil yourself.
PC XPpro TC Electronic Konnekt-8 firewire i/o, 2-Tact 2150's, Genesis 500 modified speakers, Virtual Dynamics & XLO cables
Hi Theo & Lurkers
It grieves me to report:
Tests run by Matt at Black Lion show the Micro Clock to be unsuitable for our purpose. To quote from the email, "Hi Grant, Unfortunately, it's a no-go. While we could pad the clock signal level down to the required .5 volt level, there was no S/PDIF input that would lock to the signal. Sorry about that. Matt"
Rats. Big Rats.
As a last ditch attempt, I mailed back asking if the MC could be coaxed into sending a sort of "digital black" S/PDIF format signal - just a static stream.
I'm doubtful, but maybe there's an inexpensive mod waiting to happen. I'll let you know the answer when it comes.
In the meantime Theo, keep a search open for used A/D converters that will do 192 KHz. BTW, there's a few days left on that ADC1 in Chicago (ebay item # 300276790351)... heh-heh, just a thought :)
Cheers,
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
thanks grant. the benchmark is still too expensive but I bet it does a great job for you.
there's got to be a similar product to the black lion that would work I think. for those that might know what does guitar center sell (they have a 2 week bring it back no questions asked policy) that could work?
grant: what do you think of this?
Hi Theo
I like it... (the Syncgen Box). Given the "Project Series" legend on the front panel, and the v-e-r-y reasonable cost, I wouldn't think it's the gear Alan Parsons reaches for... but it might be an improvement on Juli@'s internal system.
The key point they make is "Two "Zero Bit Digital Black" S/PDIF Outputs On Coaxial RCA Connectors" ... this is what I hoped the Black Lion could do.
The RCA connectors are not ideal, but once you confirm it's suitability in your system , you may consider changing them out for BNCs (or rewire one of the existing BNCs if it's possible).
Sounds like it's time for Rick to say "TAKE ONE FOR THE TEAM" again... be sure whoever you order from has the right return policy. I'm very curious to know if it's an improvement in what you hear - no doubt you'll do a thorough comparison.
OK... Go Get 'EM !!
Cheers,
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
I took a look at it.
Where the the BLACK LION was cheap and cheerful (although it was BLACK) this thing looks simply CHEAP, not that that would bother me. One just wonders.
It seems to me for the purposes of home studio use, where as much as we would like it to otherwise, extraordinary sound quality is not the goal. DECENT quality is sufficient for someone wanting to show what they can do.
SO, the point of a clock, in this price range, I fear is just to synchronize all of this digital stuff Norman has laying about his home studio and there is no question this box will do THAT job and make his humble efforts sound better.
The question, though soon to be answered, remains: will this thing improve upon the intrinsic sound of JULI@? I suspect this device uses crystal oscillators, also. I am sure there is always a best of anything and maybe someone makes a REALLY good crystal oscillator, but somehow, I do not think that is going to make the difference we are wanting. I cannot conceptually see how this device could make a substantial difference for the better. I will rejoice in being proved wrong; don't get me wrong. It just seems unlikely to me.
I fear the only way to improve the "clocking" of JULI@ is the heroic and noble way; replace the crystals with fancy clocks. I am not anxious to do this since at the frequencies of the two clocks on JULI@ you are stuck buying expensive ones. I had asked Jim Hagerman if his kit clocks could be made available (I cannot remember if it was both or just one he does not offer) but he said no. I had asked the BURSON folks who offer a reasonably priced clock, and again they did not offer their devices in one or both of the needed frequencies.
I look forward to hearing what Theo hears.
On another front I got my BIG battery yesterday and in time will set up the picoPC power supply as recommended by Bernd and see what happens with this. If it doesn't make a differrnce I will have a first class filament supply!!!
Bye,
Rick McInnis
I'm kind of where you are on this. the only thing that attracks me to it is that guitar center offers a 2 week trial-return policy. I don't know though based on your comments I'm more negative now.
Theo,
I was just being my negative self.
If they give you an ABSOLUTE assurance that you can being it back, why not?
I think one would have to enter this audition thinking it WON'T improve. I fear the possibility that we WANT this to work, so we are inclined to think it is working.
Like my battery power supply experiment, I fear I want it to be better in the same way and wonder if I can be a reliable judge. Unless, it is dramatic I will be hesitant to recommend it. Anything less will be suspect as an artifact of bogus discovery.
It would be useful if one could get a glimpse of what is inside. My suspicion is there is nothing special in there at all. But, if the thing is made in huge quantities in China and was well designed it could be much better than its price would lead one to assume.
Give it a try, Theo. Give it every chance. Install it and let cMP play something continuously, let it truly settle down. After about a week of this I would think it would be at its best.
Bye,
Rick McInnis
wobbly cynical fabulist)
it sounds like nothing to lose to try (if I buy from gc). but have you heard of these guys? what is the 'project series'?
Hi Theo
I "know these guys" from waaaaay back. (see http://www.yorkville.com/default.asp? ...AND... http://www.artproaudio.com/products.asp?id=134&cat=9&type=86 ) When I was a wee lad flailing away in garage bands, we dreamed of getting Traynor amplifiers.
As you can see on the Yorkville site, they've been around since 1963, and now offer the whole range of pro & semi-pro gear. Their central target audience is the middle market - not true high-enders - as reflected in the pricing (now please... no flaming from all you satisfied Yorkville users - I mean no disrespect - and yes, the Traynor K4 is the BEST keyboard amp any live performer could wish for !)
So the ART line is nothing to sneer at... and Project Series is Marketing's way of identifying with all the smaller scale "Project Studios" they cater to.
Hope this was helpful.
Cheers,
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
Hi. I just ordered one in the Netherlands for 78 euro to try.
I will try it at my juli@ (96khz)
Thats the max input for my Stello 220 DAC
Want to let you know that i recieved my Art syncgen today.
After some first listening there's no doubt about this update; it is.
The sound with external sync on juli@ is cleaner. The way i enjoy it that complex classic music is more relaxed to follow.
could you characterize how much better? a lot or just a little?
A litte theob, but it depends how you look at it. As i said the sound is cleaner. Cleaner sound gives more separation between instruments, more 3d, more easy to listen longer time. Compare the effect with a lower noisefloor. The more complex the music, the better i notice the effect. (Is easy to switch en compare with juliapan.exe control panel)
For a high-end installation a step upwards is very hard to get as we all know. In that case i would say its a relative BIG difference for a small price :-)
thank you very much. were you listening to 192,176,96 or 48? did you use the rca connection or a bnc connection from the art to juli?
I use 96khz upsampling in cplay. Any higher doesn't work with my equipment?
I had a Stello 220mkii dac and now since a few days playing with a Xindac DAC-8. De Xindac is very very good. As i see it now even a little better then the Stello.
I soldered the clock cables direct on the juli@ print.
thanks
I may order one tonight from guitar center here in the us (they have return policy). But let us know how it sounds.
Since they don't stock it and have to order they say they won't give a 2 week bring back trial period. So I am waiting until somebody else tries.
with one of the fancy "clocks" on the market?
Not that it would be any cheaper, or much cheaper.
Certainly this PLUG IN approach has its advantages over adding bulky pcb's in an already tight spot.
I know I missed it but please repeat:
Does this approach require the analogue part of the board to be in place?
One does wonder knowing that affordable CD players are certainly not using fancy clocks, just crystals, is there an HIGH quality crystal that could get most of this improvement as an almost easy swap of the two crystals on the JULI@ board?
To put all of this in its proper perspective:
Who cares that a financial crisis/panic is blazing when there is audio so convenient to obsess over? Not me. This panic sure hasn't done anything to help the traffic in my town. I wonder if this whole thing is some kind of giant video game the "news" outlets and the governments are playing and those who watch TV are getting to see the "action", assuming this is "news" and governance since it is really Goldberg's latest trick.
I really, really hate Oceania.
Bye,
Rick McInnis
Hi Rick
The external clocking option should work with - or without - the analogue board in place on Juli@. I qualify this statement ("should") only because I'm not prepared to rip my computer to pieces to confirm... that Honour can be yours !!
As a quick teaser, try what Theo did with his DVD player - just keep in mind that 44.1 -> 48 KHz is the most brutal of resampling operations (according to Bob Katz), and likely to sound the worst of any SRC upsampling option.
There are numerous choices for fancier clock solutions - mostly aimed at Hi-Fi gear - but doing that with Juli@ doesn't seem cost-effective to me. I've not searched out all the options that would work specifically with the ESI card, but I imagine power supply/ voltage issues could come into play.
I'll stick with the flexibility the PLUG-IN method allows... and with my ADC1 as master clock source. (BTW, $1099 takes it away in Chicago - see ebay Item number: 300274799091)
Let us know what YOU hear...
Cheers,
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
dont need analogue board, just go from a dvd or cd player digital out to juli digital in and reset juli panel to external clock. presto new clock! my old panasonic dvd player has a killer clock.
It just has a better crystal oscillator.
Many have commented in the past that this is a shortcoming of the JULI@.
There is a old post (one can access with GOOGLE) describing the replacing of the on-board crystals with "fancy" clocks. You need two. They would require their own power supply for an optimal implementation (!).
By this time the BENCHMARK device starts looking affordable and MUCH easier to implement.
Yes , there is no question that asynchronous (other than multiples of two) upsampling is to be avoided. Of course, this is one reason why cMP sounds much better to my ears, with my upsampling DAC chip. I think letting the computer do it sounds much better than letting that little bitty chip do all of that work.
THEREFORE, I have been mystified by Theo's findings. All of it seems to be logically wrong, but that does not mean, in the world of audio, logic is routinely turned on its head. Nonetheless, when I go to no upsampling (native 44.1) I find it to be MUCH less good. I believe the BENCHMARK unit contains an upsampling DAC chip, too.
So, in my most unhumble opinion the crystals in the PANASONIC must be better than the devices within JULI@, but carrying this delicate information through all of that extra cable seems impossible for this to be more accurate. I do not doubt the possibility of some euphonious effect and there is nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't get in the way of the information making it through. Of course, if it is producing a sound you like that is all that could matter.
Maybe Theo will set off a frenzy of interest in this old Panasonic player. The prices on EBAY will go through the roof. There could be Saudi princes and Japanese audio fanatics who will gobble (just in time for Thanksgiving) them up like vintage 300b's and GARRARD 301's.
We have to be careful about these things in this delicate world.
Bye,
Rick McInnis
what a wonderful, well thought out comment -- you are a gem! the clock mentioned elsewhere is this thread sounds good but it is very pricey. I know Elias, he is one upright rep for Benchmark so I take him at his word re 96 khz.To answer your questions: yes I could only get 48Khz out of the Panny but that is where I did my sonic comparisons: panny at 48Hhz vs internal juli @ 44 and 48khz and in this comparison the Panny won -- not even close. I will be looking for another m -audio. I could get 44,48, 88 out of the modded oppo but the panny still won which has what prompted me to be begin the quest. It'll be moot when cics releases the next cplay version with full simd capability through src 192 khz. Till then the panny stays in the system.
Edits: 11/21/08
Hi Theo
Your comment puzzles me... Could you please expand on it ? You state:
It'll be moot when cics releases the next cplay version with full simd capability through src 192 khz
Huh ? What does that mean (pardon my thickheadedness...) ?
As for external clocking, no matter what you do with the software ahead of Juli@... you still have the "less than perfect" internal oscillator(s) to overcome. I don't get the connection between the two.
Thanks,
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
right now I only have a good 48khz external clock. if and when cics extends simd instructions to -145 src (right now cics says that the src is only partially impacted by simd) then in my system I believe 192 will again beat the performance of 44 (which gets full simd and to my ears sounds better than 192 ---right now). So unless I get a good external clock that does 192 I'll probably prefer 192 (with internal clock) when cplay / src gets full benefit of simd.
This past summer I had the opportunity to listen to the Antelope Audio OCX clocking the RME Fireface 800. The FF800 has a reputation of having a pretty decent clock on it's own, but externally clocking it to the OCX was a not-so-subtle improvement in SQ. Extensive A/B was not necessary. I heard the difference in the first 10 seconds (it was that obvious). Now granted I was using the Wordclock out function of the OCX and it does indeed support 192KHz, but I understand it also has S/PDIF output. I cannot vouch for that functionality, but I can say the OCX is worth it's salt.
In Southern California there is a company that has a "try before you buy" program where you can demo the unit FREE of charge for 7 days.
http://www.audiomidi.com/specials/trybeforeyoubuy.cfm
I no longer have the RME at my disposal nor do I have the Juli@, otherwise I would do this myself. But maybe Theo is willing to try.
great clock and thank you for the suggestion/idea. just a little too pricey for me.
Check out Black Lion Audio's micro clock around 400 bucks I think.
You could also have one of the audio modding companies replace the cards crystal with a Audiocom super clock 4.
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RAM&Category_Code=SCLK4
Regards
PC XPpro TC Electronic Konnekt-8 firewire i/o, 2-Tact 2150's, Genesis 500 modified speakers, Virtual Dynamics & XLO cables
The outputs on the Black Lion are all Wordclock out - aren't they? It doesn't have S/PDIF output - does it? (That's what Theo needs).
they have 3 (or 6) bnc outputs which is what is needed to hook up to the juli. will synching to a wordclock output stream work on the juli digital in?
...and TAKE ONE FOR THE TEAM !!'cause I just got a reply from Matt at Black Lion Audio - to wit:
================================================================
re: Micro Clock S/PDIF Modification...
Hello Grant,
Thanks for your email. We've had other people ask about this as well, not for the ESI, but for other devices. In theory, this is possible, and easily done by padding the output down from TTL level to SPDIF level. However, we haven't actually tested it, so I can't say 'yes' with absolute certainty. While S/PDIF isn't the best method of delivering a digital clock signal, sometimes we're constrained by reality so I can see the necessity of doing something like this.
Let me experiment with it over the weekend.
Matt
================================================================
Seems I've stirred the pot twice this week...Can't wait for next week's developments.
Cheers,
GrantThat's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
Edits: 11/21/08
Grant,
If one was to use the input BNC as per your modified JULI@ would this mitigate this SPDIF concern? Or is there, too, a question of signal power?
So is the fellow at BLACK LION concerned about, more than anything else, the efficacy of an RCA connection?
Theo, if that is the case, simply get Grant to arrange for your JULI@ to be modified like his.
This BLACK LION device seems to do what is required for a reasonable price. Since I am working towards converting my machine to battery power per Bernd's posts, it would be simple enough to power this thing with the same (huge) battery.
It seems if all of these things can make a difference we might be ready to make a leap in quality, or just expense.
Bye,
Rick McInnis
good question rick, but if it sounds good off of rca connectors I'll just convert the juli digital in to bnc and go from there. I'm also still trying to understand why this works. I'm reclocking the digital stream before it gets to the Benchmark where its reclocked again. It sounds like it shouldn't work but it does. I sent an email to BL to follow up still waitng their answer.Grant or cics can either of you comment on this?
Edits: 11/22/08 11/22/08
Theo, Rick & Lurkers
I agree with Theo's first point... a valid EXT-CLOCK experiment can be done using the RCA/breakout cable. If you like what you hear, a BNC connection will make that effect a little better (impedance matching, more direct connection, etc. etc.)
There's a distinction you must make between the reference clock of a device (aka: master oscillator), and the upsampling/resampling operation you perform on a datastream.
The former is used to divide time accurately into slices, corresponding with the chosen sample rate. The latter is what cics is doing with SRC in cPlay.
What the Benchmark does to the signal (ie: re-sample to 110 KHz for internal processing) has no bearing on the question (or value) of externally clocking the Juli@ card.
DAC1:
The DAC1 does it's magic with whatever you send into it - and a "better" input stream will be heard as "better" reproduction (providing your monitoring chain is up to the task). The incongruous fact that your SRC-upsampled 192 stream is then DOWN-sampled to 110 inside the DAC1 should give you nightmares... except that 110 KHz is what Benchmark engineers found to be the sweet spot for the chips they are using, and the proof is in the listening. Interesting to note I clearly hear the benefit of 176/192 vs 88.2/96 when playing the SR game with the Benchmark.
I personally believe the DAC1 will always reflect even the most subtle of changes because it's design is that good, and I can trust it as my, my... (forgive me for this) my benchmark . In my room, all digital sources are heard through the DAC1, because only then can I judge what I hear with confidence (especially when doing mixing/mastering work for clients).
Juli@:
Externally clocking Juli@ provides greater timing precision than it's own oscillator can. The more accurately it slices time, the better it will assemble the analogue waveform, and S/PDIF stream - and the output will be that much more faithful to what cPlay is sending.
"SIMD instructions fully optimized for 192 KHz" notwithstanding, you will always get better sound from the Juli@ (at whatever SR you choose) by giving it a better reference clock to work with. Unless the EXT-CLOCK source is inferior to Juli@'s onboard circuit... but you wouldn't waste your time on that !
Rick:
To your question... I don't know if the WC coming out of the Black Lion Micro Clock is suitable (with appropriate adjustment of voltage level) to feed Juli@'s Digital-IN (and create the desired EXT-CLOCK effect). The connector type is secondary to Juli@ "understnding" the WC signal format. Matt's email reply suggests it can be done, and I'm happy as a manufacturer BL is so willing to examine, test and proclaim this "new" use for their box will work for us. And just in time for the Holiday Season !!
I'm excited for all you guys who want to take your cMP Rig a step up the Quality Ladder - if the BL-MC can do the job, it's "reasonably" affordable, a cute little accessory and solves the biggest knock against the Anointed Soundcard (I'm just waiting to get flamed for that...)
If Rick & Bernd get the Battery Option figured out, this is going to be one serious contender for Best Music Maker !
Hope this clarifies the issue Theo.
Cheers,
Grant
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
very nice response and of course you are right. I thought about it after I wrote my last post...the Benchie improves everything you send to it otherwise how would cplay ever sound better on it than other reference players. So an improved clocked stream has to be better. that's the only problem I have with Benchmark's claims that it doesn't matter what you send it that the Benchie will clean it up to some absolute level of excellence. not true every incremental improvment in cplay is clearly revealed by the DAC1 as yet another improvement in sonics.You said...
SIMD instructions fully optimized for 192 KHz" notwithstanding, you will always get better sound from the Juli@ (at whatever SR you choose) by giving it a better reference clock to work with. Unless the EXT-CLOCK source is inferior to Juli@'s onboard circuit... but you wouldn't waste your time on that...
what I meant was that assuming I have the same panasonic clock (which only does 48khz), I personally believe that cplay with src optimized for simd will be better with juli's internal clock at 192. yes if the black lion pans out then, yes, that would probably be better yet.
grant I am impressed with your analytical capability plus your lucid writing skills. the 2 rarely come in packages.
btw have you heard from Black Lion? I sent them an email also but so far no response.
Edits: 11/23/08 11/23/08
(...with apologies to Focus )
Theo, thank you for the compliment... now it'll take me at least two hours to post anything, lest I slip back from the high standards...
RE: Benchmark "Claims" (or AU CONTRAIRE # 2):
(he-he... as if I need to be an apologist for Benchmark)
Theo sez: "...only problem I have with Benchmark's claims that it doesn't matter what you send it that the Benchie will clean it up to some absolute level of excellence. not true every incremental improvement in cPlay..."
Be careful to distinguish between TRANSMISSION jitter (from which Benchmark claims immunity) and SAMPLING jitter (a Different Devil completely). I HIGHLY recommend reading Bob Katz book Mastering Audio - the art and the science , especially chapter 19 on Jitter. Bob defines it thus:
Interface Jitter: the jitter present in the interconnections between equipment.
Sampling Jitter: the jitter in the clock which drives the converter.
A-HA... you can fill in the blanks for what I should write next - and all you knowledge seekers - go read Bob's book !
I would state the Benchmark case a bit differently:
The DAC1 does not improve the incoming signal, it merely allows you to hear (with great clarity and precision) what's coming down the pipe. Inasmuch as it re-samples the data for internal use (thereby rejecting TRANSMISSION jitter) - yes it changes the signal - but not to editorialize upon the original.
On the other hand, the processing in cPlay does indeed CHANGE the resultant sound - it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than playing the RBCD on a CD player. That you can perceive every incremental improvement in cPlay is testament to the DAC1 getting out of the way (editorial-wise), and reporting honestly on your bitstream.
Should you care to provide Juli@ a more precise timing reference, it can't help but to increase the accuracy with which it assembles the analogue & digital outputs.
Regarding Black Lion:
I should hear from Matt by Wednesday this week - he expected to do some S/PDIF experiments over the weekend.
OK... gotta go install v2.0b11-B9 and hear what the fuss is all about !
Cheers,
Grant
(ps: for a long story about how cable choice DOES matter between ADC1 & DAC1 look here -> http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/benchmark-dac1-now-available-usb-223006/index79.html#post3169085 )
That's not a Toy... IT'S A TOOL !!
hear anything from black lion? I haven't.
I stand corrected about Benchmark by the master. Thanks for the clarification.
Thanks for following up. I read somewhere where these guys offer a free 7 day trial. If thats the case I may try it. There are so many uncertainties that otherwise I probably wouldn't try. With respect to Rick's comment on maybe this a euphonic effect I would say no. Anything that increases dynamics, extension and inner detail is not accidental or euphonic imo.
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