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I am trying to understand the need (or desirability) for optical internet. Do I, in fact, lower the noise floor and thereby possibly getting better sound by interrupting the wired CAT 5/CAT6 with an optical internet portion? These are not long distances.And, if so, do I need two boxes, an ethernet to fiber convertor and then a fiber to ethernet convertor to run to the Bricasti dac's ethernet input?
This is all new to me. Thanks for your thoughts.
Edits: 02/27/21Follow Ups:
Anyone with an opinion on these Medical App isolators?
Edits: 03/04/21 03/04/21 03/04/21
I bought two of them from amazon.
Cut to razor sounding violins
Anyone with an opinion on these Medical App isolators?
I use EMO EN-70 isolators; they seem to be equivalent spec-wise to your Tripp-lite thingies. They give a perceptible but modest SQ effect in my audio server-to-endpoint LAN link.
Though the price is reasonable in the medical context, I'd suggest they're not cheap for what they do in an audio setup. That said, I bought mine several years ago - they were one of the first LAN gizmos I tried at a time when there was little else around.
IIRC, John Swenson offers some measurements on their effect on Uptone Audio's blog/web site.
HTH
Dave
If you want isolation or intend to cut groundloops:
Try Wifi. ;)
It's that simple. It's pretty cheap. And it's usually more then sufficient.
If you run a wired network, make sure that your grounding is properly done.
Wired ethernet is actually isolated. There are still groundloops.
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blog latest: *** The Audio Streaming Series - tuning kit pCP ***
I wouldn't run shielded Ethernet for a home audio network unless one end is ungrounded. It's all risk and no reward IMHO.
Try it if you're curious, keep it if you like it. Like any other audiophile tweak, YMMV.
If you're looking for a technical justification, don't bother, because there isn't any.
Hiya,
I've been running fiber for about 5 years, maybe four.
It has made a difference, - but also some of the new RJ45 Ethernet switches such as the Etheregen may make a difference.
The answer is almost always, - (IMO), - depends on what the rest of your system is.
Is your digital file player a combo file server/player? Are you playing your digital files from a Laptop/MacBook/desktop computer on your audio rack?
I started running two FMC, (Fiber Media Converters) and a 45 ft length of fiber cable. This DOES isolate your Ethernet devices electronically. But each FMC needs a power supply, - so if you have a "noisy" FMC power supply as the receiver, - then that might be an issue: noise from these PSUs).
So there are a number of questions that are specific to you and your system.
On these forums, here at AA the reception to these discussions is not really met with a lot of support, - so it's best to head over to Computer Audiophile/Audiophile Style. There's a great thread there that is very long, that discusses everything Fiber: by jabbr, - who has pretty much experimented with just about everything Fiber.
Largely how it works is: in your "other" room: you use a short RJ45 Ethernet cable plugged into a switch or server, that Ethernet cable plugs into the FMC, then a fiber cable out of that "sender" and then in your audio room/rack, a FMC "receiver" where the other end of the fiber cable is installed, - then that FMC converts the cabling back to RJ45 Ethernet that plugs into your streaming device.
This "system" is just a way of replacing an Ethernet cable, - and it's far less effective if all your devices are on the audio rack. Also, - this is cheap, - my whole set up was around $100 including two Jameco linear power supplies to run the FMCs at $11 each.
For many people, spending $100 or so for the experiment is fun. For others... not so much.
If you're running USB into your DAC, - and you're using something like a multi-function computer on your audio rack, - something like an Uptone ISO-regen or an Intona USB isolator will be far more effective, and really, - not worth spending even the $100 on the fiber set-up.
Cheers
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Thank you, Sordidman. That was helpful. I am running 5TB of music using Roon server on an i9 iMac with 32gb of ram. The computer is two floors away from stereo system with the ethernet cable plugged directly into the Bricasti dac. Along the way the ethernet cable runs through two switches.
Doesn't seem too expensive to try the experiment.
Hey...
Thanks for listing the components that you have: I think that with your setup, - you MAY benefit from replacing a long run of RJ45 ethernet, and possibly may get to eliminate a switch.
IME, - the change is not massive, - but worth it. I have never compared my "long run" of either ethernet version to an expensive RJ45 ethernet cable.
However, - IME, - the isolation/reclocking/signal integrity devices by Swenson are proven correct to my setup.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I use the optical output on my dedicated music server straight to (.5m) the DAC and RCA IC's to the Preamp. So I don't believe I need that converter. The only issue is the optical output won't handle DSD or am I missing something?
Jad, you are feeding your dac by toslink/optical cable. My dac gets hooked to the server by Ethernet. Supposedly, by converting the standard Ethernet to Optical cable you break any noise that rides on the Ethernet cable. I'm skeptical over a short distance. I was inquiring what people more knowledgeable than me about networking, think about this concept.
Ethernet/optical transceivers are not isolation devices, filters, reclockers, or signal regenerators. They simply convert from voltage to light intensity and back again. That's it. So if the differential voltage at the input to the first transceiver contains noise, that noise is simply converted into light intensity by the first transceiver and back to voltage again by the other one. They preserve the noise just as well as the signal.
And they also need +5VDC power, usually from wall-wart SMPS, so they introduce two more possible noise sources that wouldn't be there if you just used straight Ethernet.
One area where optical may be beneficial is over long distances and in noisy environments. The optical cable itself does not pick or emit any EMI/RFI noise. This is more important over greater distances but hardly a concern in the typical listening room.
Thank you all for the education. Very helpful information. Makes me want to delve deeper and really learn more about networking.
On my work projects, we run optical between any two locations that don't share common bonding, which is mostly between buildings. You can't run shielded cable between systems that don't share the same ground, otherwise you'll suffer equipment failures. We also use optical for 10GbE to avoid using shielded twisted pair, just because we've had better luck with that. All 1GbE within a building is plain old unshielded Cat 6. I've never had a problem with network reliability using Cat 6 even in electrically noisy environments.
Given that twisted pair Ethernet is balanced, common mode noise picked up on the pairs won't get beyond the pulse transformers at the end. Differential noise is basically filtered (for lack of a better term) by the PHYs, since the data out of them is latched. And there's no transmitted clock to jitter up. So all I can see is that there's some very short traces on the board between the jack, pulse transformers, and PHYs that could potentially radiate RF that came in on the cable within the case. But 1GbE signal itself is 80 MHz in bandwidth, and higher in level than the noise. If you can keep that out of the analog audio circuits, you can keep the noise out too.
So I personally think this is all audiophilia nervosa. But if CraigS720 wants peach of mind, the EtherREGEN should do that.
So I take it that you're not into high-end audiophile approved CAT8 cables? ;-) There's lower hanging fruit where it makes sense to focus attention and hardwired Ethernet is not it.I have government customers who run media converters for Ethernet and not necessarily over great distances. They are paranoid about any RF emission and optical solves that completely. This was in the days of UTP CAT5 and 100Mb Ethernet. But we have seen over the years that media converters are not the most reliable devices. Maybe that's changed.
Edits: 03/03/21
Thanks for the explanation!
In' no expert but I would think that is you use good cables over a short distance in an RF free environment you should be relatively noise free. I think there would be merit in a system that relies on a remotely located NAS or similar storage system.
Noise is the new jitter.
Now that each an every body is moving to streaming the usual BS is coming to the market.
We need audiophile Ethernet cables,
Audiophile switches (yes they do exist)
And optical connections.
All to to reduce the "noise"
What noise?
Ever seen any measurement proving the analog out of your DAC has a lower noise floor when using optical fiber?
Do buy into this claims.
There are better ways to waste your money.
The Well Tempered Computer
"Ever seen any measurement proving the analog out of your DAC has a lower noise floor when using optical fiber?"Exactly. And if we "see" an improvement in the measurement does that mean we can actually "hear" it when the noise is already a hundred dB down?
YMMV, but I'm a skeptic. Could be fun to tinker with just for grins if one has excess cash burning a hole in his pocket ;-)
Edits: 02/28/21
Hahahaha.
Roseval,
I have been an audiophile for 50 years. I have a whole closet of wasted money. How well I know.
Thanks.
Craig
You can use two of the kits linked below or piece together a comparable solution for less off Amazon.The end game is improved sound, right? Will optical Ethernet be any better in this regard vs standard CAT5/6? Unless there's a glaring problem with your CAT5/6 Ethernet setup that needs to be solved, I am skeptical. IMHO it's more unnecessary clutter but tweaking around with it might be fun.
Edits: 02/28/21 02/28/21
Yeah, you'd need two boxes, one to send and one to receive to your devicem making it very expensive.
I can't see any advantage. Optical is capable for greater speeds over greater distances, but Gigbit ethernet with Cat 6 cable is plenty fast enough for any home uses.
-Rod
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