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In Reply to: RE: Ok posted by E-Stat on March 17, 2017 at 11:08:22
Of course there is when that component is also powering a USB attached
device which may exceed the sum of the component's design criteria.
Apparently, you do not understand how the uRendu is implemented with USB
DACs. Perhaps you might read the cautionhttps://uptoneaudio.com/products/ultracap-lps-1
: This is issue from drawing current exceeding the limit from power source. Not the issue from increasing transformer power. You should also consider that LPS-1 has 1.1A current draw limit which is hardly sufficient for microRendu. Ultracap is like capacitor bank design leveraging current surge from output and give passive power reservation from capacitor. For microRendu, LPS-1 isn't optimal choice to power devce with 1A current rating. It's OK for most USB Audio inputs and SSD but not for mini PC like microRendu.
Well it's up to you. I'm talking from past experience with LPS-1 with my customers. It could be that limiting to 1.1A is to prevent damaging unit from getting too hot from high current. Some designs like shunt regulator will easily get hot and we couldn't test this design with Nikola too.
"That's the faulty in design not having too large transformer...on PSU
alone with two transformers large enough to build power amp instead.
...Sounds awesome to my ears and very live with full sound
performance."This is what I have been saying.
: That's the issue of faulty design. They shouldn't use high voltage output to regulate low voltage current in the first place. For matching output voltage from transformer, it only gets better.
"Why don't you buy Rasberry PI instead? It has more features than
microRendu and cheaper too."I own both and find the sound quality of the uRendu superior out of the
box.: I wonder what leads you to decide to own microRendu before listening to it. Won't you feel skeptics against microRendu before trying or buying?
"will to help you correcting your misunderstanding about electronics"
I haven't misspoken about anything.
: From the beginning, you said this.
"While some find my HDPlex 2A power supply overkill (uRendu requires only 1A), the Nikola delivers 6.4A and the Sonore Signature, a whopping 12A!"
There's nothing wrong for power source being able to provide current more than device needs. There's no demerits in that and 2A output on device requiring 1A isn't over kill at all. Don't believe them. For every linear power supply design, you should at least use adaptor with double current limit. Unlike switching, they tends to have voltage drop easier and increasing power source will reduce voltage drop rate.
If you have 1A rating for switching power supply, you should double it to 2A for linear power supply. That's bare minimum to keep linear power supply working properly. That's your misunderstandings.
So I'm correcting these misconceptions floating around before more people starting to adopt impractical products. Last night, I tested LPS-1 with Seagate Freeagent USB drive. It has less than 1A for power rating on hard drive yet LPS-1 keeps cutting power source because of power surge above 1.1A limit. Using ultracap can prevent power surge issue but that's workaround for using products incorrectly.
Regards,
Keetakawee
Edits: 03/17/17Follow Ups:
This is issue from drawing current exceeding the limit from power source.
Exactly! I'm glad you now concur. Remember what you said earlier?
"There's no such thing as drawing too much current from over supplied source"
There's nothing wrong for power source being able to provide current more than device needs.
I truly admire folks who are multi-lingual, but clearly something is getting lost in the translation. When I used the term "while some find" - that means other people, not me. Do you remember how I originally responded to that?
I find it ironic that others seem to disagree with this statement of yours: "When you use 1A, you should have transformer capable of sending 2A at least for optimal performance."
Not me. :)
So I'm correcting these misconceptions floating around
As voiced by others , not me Tonto!
"There's no such thing as drawing too much current from over supplied source"
: I mean increasing transformer output power can't make device drawing too much current. Remember what you said before? We're talking about increasing transformer output power and you brought up topic about microRendu having current draw issue. That's not related to increasing transformer output power at all, right?
"I truly admire folks who are multi-lingual, but clearly something is getting lost in the translation. When I used the term "while some find" - that means other people, not me. Do you remember how I originally responded to that?"
: You also said this.
"Philosophically, I'm in the Ultracap camp given its clever approach. I wish that unit was available last summer when I had to make a decision."
It's not safe to use LPS-1 with microRendu. If devic requires 1 Amp min continuous, using power source with 1.1A max current is not wise at all. That's why I stepped in to correct your misunderstandings before you actually buy it.
"I find it ironic that others seem to disagree with this statement of yours: "When you use 1A, you should have transformer capable of sending 2A at least for optimal performance."
Not me. :)"
: I believe people who understand the nature switching and linear power supply specifications will agree with me. But OK. People can have different principles and choose what they like.
But if you believe in your way of doing things, go ahead. I hope you won't regret this later.
Regards,
Keetakawee
I mean increasing transformer output power can't make device drawing too much currentNo, the attached device would be the villain in this case drawing more current than its host can digest.
That's not related to increasing transformer output power at all, right?
Certainly not. While I find having some added current capability is desirable, having six to twelve times the needed value as you find with the Nikola or the Sonore Signature sure seems like overkill.
It's not safe to use LPS-1 with microRendu.
Do you realize the same engineer (John Swenson) designed both - with the LPS-1 intended to power the rendu? While the nominal current requirement for the rendu supply is 1A, the device itself draws about half that.
That's why I stepped in to correct your misunderstandings before you actually buy it.
We still seem to face a translation challenge here. Here's my observation once again:
Philosophically, I'm in the Ultracap camp given its clever approach.
That clever approach being of using low impedance capacitors to drive the device sourced by an "energizing source".
And I may be wrong, but somehow I think that Mr. Swenson has a much deeper understanding of how his products work together than do you. And that using them together is most certainly not "dangerous". :)
edit: perhaps you might want to read his design goals and explanation of how the unit works by clicking here .
Edits: 03/17/17
"No, the attached device would be the villain in this case drawing more current than its host can digest.": The more reason you should increase output on power supply host to prevent such issue from happening.
"Certainly not. While I find having some added current capability is desirable, having six to twelve times the needed value as you find with the Nikola or the Sonore Signature sure seems like overkill."
: Define overkill. For me it's not overkill at all but it's understandable for R-Core lover's point of view who don't appreciate increasing transformer's output power.
"Do you realize the same engineer (John Swenson) designed both - with the LPS-1 intended to power the rendu? While the nominal current requirement for the rendu supply is 1A, the device itself draws about half that."
: I do realize and for me it's not safe since it can't even power JCAT USB Card with a single USB hard drive from Seagate (it's already low powered drive among 2.5 HDD). That's my opinion like some people who don't think bypassing fuse is OK but some do. If microRendu states it requires 1A continuous current, it'll be 2A linear power supply in my book for safety reasons.
"
That clever approach being of using low impedance capacitors to drive the device sourced by an "energizing source".And I may be wrong, but somehow I think that Mr. Swenson has a much deeper understanding of how his products work together than do you. And that using them together is most certainly not "dangerous". :)"
: There's nothing wrong with LPS-1 product itself. However, with LPS-1 having 1.1A current limit, I don't feel safe to power device requiring 1A continuous current even if developer said it's OK.
I recommended LPS-1 to my customer myself with intention to power USB audio input alone. I believe microRendu can work with LPS-1 for most of the time but I don't feel safe with 1A "continuous" device powered by 1.1A linear power supply.
Also, I agree about we're having communications issues in one way or another. Here's what you said before:
"Being over kill or not isn't about current output but transformer size.
Really? Some electronics, like the uRendu will shut down if it draws too much current. On the other hand, I've never heard of any doing so because it somehow "detects" a larger transformer upstream running at low capacity. Have you?"
I interpreted this as using overkill power supply can make uRendu shutting down because it draws too much current. And you agreed with me that this shutting down issue has nothing to do with increasing transform output power. Even now, I still have no idea why you brought uRendu drawing too much current up for this off-topic comment.
Also, universal energized power supply is switching AC> DC using low impedance capacitor for additional $15. If you're familiar with two-step regulation, you can use Nikola for the first step and LPS-1 for the second step like some of my customers too for future upgrades.
Regards,
Keetakawee
Edits: 03/17/17 03/17/17
The more reason you should increase output on power supply host to prevent such issue from happening.Somehow I'm thinking that deliberately overheating a device beyond its design criteria is not a good idea.
However, with LPS-1 having 1.1A current limit, I don't feel safe to power device requiring 1A continuous current even if developer said it's OK.
Given it has 60 farads of storage, I don't share you concern.
it can't even power JCAT USB Card with a single USB hard drive from Seagate
I think you'll find it was never intended to do that. If you return to my previous link, the intended uses don't include spinning rust drives. SSDs, yes.
I interpreted this as using overkill power supply can make uRendu shutting down because it draws too much current.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. Just to suggest such is unnecessary. We had a side topic going on about the possibility of at attached USB device drawing more current than the rendu is comfortable with, i.e. not burn itself up.
Also, universal energized power supply is switching AC> DC using low impedance capacitor for additional $15. If you're familiar with two-step regulation, you can use Nikola for the first step and LPS-1 for the second step.
I'm thinking you don't understand how the two interact. The clever approach to which I previously referred is that the quality of energizer itself doesn't affect the resulting noise output by the supercaps feeding the device.
Sure, you could throw money away, but that would not be my choice.
Edits: 03/17/17
"Somehow I'm thinking that deliberately overheating a device beyond its design criteria is not a good idea.": It'll overheat if you use 15V output transformer to regulate 7V. It won't overheat at all if you use 7V output transformer to regulate 7V and also sound much better too.
It's not the fault of raising transformer output power but fault in choosing improper output voltage. I can't see the reason why you should keep using way "overkill" and "least optimal" output voltage like that.
"Given it has 60 farads of storage, I don't share you concern."
: If device doesn't take more than 1A at all, that's OK. Capacitor bank design will work fine as long as device doesn't actually draw more than the limit.
"Perhaps I wasn't clear. Just to suggest such is unnecessary. We had a side topic going on about the possibility of at attached USB device drawing more current than the rendu is comfortable with, i.e. not burn itself up."
: I agree that wasn't clear and should be stated in other areas outside increasing transformer output power. Glad to see we're clear about this now.
"I'm thinking you don't understand how the two interact. The elegant design to which I previously referred is that the quality of energizer itself doesn't affect the resulting noise output by the supercaps feeding the device.
Sure, you could throw money away, but that would not be my choice."
: I'm thinking you don't understand at all about AC> DC and DC> DC approach for two step regulation. energized supply is switching PSU which is better than standard switching PSU found in computer market. OK it has low impedance capacitor and can send current fast with good switching design to work with capacitor bank in LPS-1 more effectively. I can see it's effective and very valuable for additional $15.
Sure it's better than cheap switching PSU and if believing that will not get any better with LPS-1 can give your peace of mind, OK. But this is not true for my customer's case using LPS-1 for audio works.
Sure it's your choice and your belief and I respect that. I hope you'll be happy with uRendu and LPS-1.
Regards,
Keetakawee
Edits: 03/17/17 03/17/17 03/17/17 03/17/17 03/17/17 03/17/17
If device doesn't take more than 1A at all, that's OK.Perhaps you didn't note where I previously observed that while the nominal requirement is 1A, the device itself consumes about half that.
It goes back to your incomplete understanding about the device and its maker's year long vision working together with the uRendu.
Sure it's better than cheap switching PSU and if believing that will not get any better with LPS-1 can give your peace of mind, OK.
You're welcome to argue the merits of your claim with John Swenson since that is his assertion.
I hope you'll be happy with uRendu and LPS-1.
At the expense of confusing the issue with facts, I don't have one nor have a ready plan to sell the HDPlex and replace it with the LPS-1.
Which returns to exactly where we started. I remain curious as to Steve's observations as to how the two compare.
Good day - I'm ready to listen to some music!
Edits: 03/17/17
"Perhaps you didn't note where I previously observed that while the nominal requirement is 1A, the device itself consumes about half that.: And perhaps you didn't note where I previously mentioned that it's about reasoning based on specifications as I stated before here.
'I do realize and for me it's not safe since it can't even power JCAT USB Card with a single USB hard drive from Seagate (it's already low powered drive among 2.5 HDD). That's my opinion like some people who don't think bypassing fuse is OK but some do. If microRendu states it requires 1A continuous current, it'll be 2A linear power supply in my book for safety reasons.'
And not to mention additional power consumption for micro SD and some USB audio chipset that may draw current significantly like 300-500mA for playing hires format with uRendu drawing 1A in total.
"It does back to your incomplete understanding about the device and its maker's year long vision working together with the uRendu."
: You neglected the possibility of uRendu + USB input that may not work in some cases. I've been testing USB DACs in market for over 5 years before releasing Nimitra and I'm sure I haven't tested enough yet. This starts to get offensive now and I don't appreciate that.
"You're welcome to argue the merits of your claim with John Swenson since that is his assertion."
: Your assertion is 'Sure, you could throw money away, but that would not be my choice.' I have nothing to argued with $15 switching adapter from Mean Well that works good enough for its price. I recommend to compare between this Mean Well adaptor and HDPlex alone before using LPS-1 too. ;)
"At the expense of confusing the issue with facts, I don't have one nor have a ready plan to sell the HDPlex and replace it with the LPS-1.
Which returns to exactly where we started. I remain curious as to Steve's observations as to how the two compare.
Good day - I'm ready to listen to some music!"
: No wonder why you're so defensive on HDPlex. You're already using it. I see. I see. Here's my recommendation.
1. Purchase LPS-1 with energized supply
2. Configure HDPlex to send 7V output to LPS-1
3. Compare between HDPlex and energized supply
4. Sell HDPlex if you find no difference or prefer Energized supply
5. Consider Nikola as next upgrade path if you find HDPlex working better than Energized supply.Actually, you don't need to sell HDPlex since HDPlex -> LPS-1 is possible. If you're looking for reviews about HDPlex and Nikola LPS for future upgrades, you can find one here.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/exasound-audio-design-e32-dac
exaSound e32 DAC Review has both HDPlex and Nikola in tests.
Regards,
Keetakawee
Edits: 03/17/17 03/17/17 03/17/17 03/17/17 03/17/17
You're already using it
I chose from Sonore's recommended list as of last summer when I purchased the uRendu. BTW, you can learn a great deal about an inmate's system, room and musical tastes if you click on their moniker. Many like me post details and even pics of their systems.
Purchase LPS-1 with energized supply
Since you missed the first time around, I'll repeat:
I don't have any plan to replace the current unit because I am getting exceptionally good sound from my system. :)
"I chose from Sonore's recommended list as of last summer when I purchased the uRendu. BTW, you can learn a great deal about an inmate's system, room and musical tastes if you click on their moniker. Many like me post details and even pics of their systems."
: I see. Will look around later. Would be nice if there's audiophiles using good CD sources from Esoteric/Emm Labs/dCS/Wadia/Weiss too. I couldn't find matching power supply for Nimitra to recommend because I couldn't ones with designs I prefer. So, I ended up building Nikola myself so it can sound similar to highend CD transports I've known so far.
"Since you missed the first time around, I'll repeat:
I don't have any plan to replace the current unit because I am getting exceptionally good sound from my system. :)"
: Reading again. You're right. You used past tense and I didn't notice that before. I thought you're considering to upgrade with LPS-1.
Well, if you like current sound then it's OK. Be careful about using 7V from 15-20V too since it tends to be hotter on lower voltage, especially with 100VA transformer like that.
Regards,
Keetakawee
Be careful about using 7V from 15-20V too since it tends to be hotter on lower voltage, especially with 100VA transformer like that.
is unwarranted.
Using my digital infrared thermometer, the case and heat sink temperature measure 71.2 and 71.4 degrees F, respectively. By comparison, the front panel of the preamp which isn't even turned on is 69 degrees which happens to be room temperature. :)
I see. That's good then. Do you also use air conditioner? In Thailand, weather is very hot so I'll need to be extra careful about temperature.
Regards,
Keetakawee
Do you also use air conditioner?
When necessary. I live in the southern US where it does tend to be both hot and humid during the spring and summer. I get vastly more heat, however, from the sixteen 6550C output tubes than a power supply barely operating above idle while doing its job.
Then it's time to jump in the pool!
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