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In Reply to: RE: Initial impressions RPi vs uRendu posted by E-Stat on March 11, 2017 at 11:50:51
You're not comparing RPI vs. MicroRendu!!!
You've got a complete shuffled environment of interfaces, devices, cables . SW asf.
For sure this will lead you to wrong conclusions!!
For sure It won't be a RPI vs. MicroRendu comparison here.
However.
Obviously what matters is the outcome. If you're happy with what u hear
already, I'm pretty sure with some minor adjustments you'd be even happier.
BTW.
Did u try PiCorePlayer? With all mods on (HDMI off - LED off asf)?
Are u streaming PCM or flac? There's plenty of stuff to gain.
BTW.
Here's my HifiBerry thread (my first HAT project):
There a numerous tweaks listed. Many of them will also apply to the HB digital interface:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/285811-hifiberry-dac-pro-hw-mods-anybody.html
And. If you've got 45years of diy-audio experience I really don't understand why you run after stuff like HDPlex supplies.
That stuff is something for folks like Mercman who can hardly turn a screwdriver.
Enjoy.
Follow Ups:
If you've got 45years of diy-audio experience I really don't understand why you run after stuff like HDPlex supplies.
The uRendu manufacturer recommended it?
Sorry, but I have a professional life and don't have the time to cobble up my own 7V power supply. Or assume, that Sonore doesn't know what they're doing.
I've been a DIYer since my teens but in recent years it's been more cost effective and time effective for me to buy certain things.
Time spent on work and family are more valuable with higher returns vs time spent and any cash 'saved' on certain DIY projects. In other words, at this point in my life it makes more sense to earn money and buy vs DIY. That may change when I'm retired - or unemployed. ;-)
Well I can't claim to have decades of DIY experience but these days DIY projects like cobbling together a RPi or even a PS probably takes less than 1 hour, even for the novice.
Nothing wrong with buying off the shelf stuff though.
Everybody's take on HiFi is different. For me its a hobby which means I get pleasure with some amount of DIY. It took me all of 2 minutes to de-solder and solder on a couple of new Capacitors in a Havana Dac. And probably the same to cobble together a RPi set-up.
I assembled an RPi audio setup a few years ago. I admit that it was fun but those early RPi were under powered and didn't work so great for audio. I know things have changed.
The $640 uRendu is a relative bargain against so many 'off the shelf' audiophile streamers and other related gear so I'm not too concerned. And it will have resale value if I ever decide to let it go.
The $640 uRendu is a relative bargain against so many 'off the shelf' audiophile streamers...
like the $17k Aurender W20? :)
On the other hand, it takes nearly twice its cost in peripherals to be just barely better than a $35 general purpose cobbled together toy.So at nearly $2k it just wins over the RPi.
You call that a bargain?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Edits: 03/16/17
just barely better than a $35 general purpose cobbled together toy.
That buys you a naked board devoid of case, power supply and digital output. Unusable at that level to do anything. BTW, I've ordered a HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro given your recommendation. That was not part of our fisherman's original guideline. Perhaps I should have started there. Let's say $150 vs $640 for an equivalent, operational product.
So at nearly $2k it just wins over the RPi.
I'm not sure where you get the $2k figure. My investment is $640 for the uRendu, $400 for the power supply and because my DAC doesn't support a Linux based USB device , another $500 for the S/PDIF converter. That was an unplanned expense. Call it $1k.
And yes, I would definitely call a $1k device of that sound quality a bargain vs any number of hideously expensive alternatives. :)
ps: I've begun experimentation with my battery supplies. I need more time, but I believe using even a 1A battery provides more resolution than the $13 Jameco linear. Back to listening to it. :)
My battery supply. Using a 7.2V 10Ah NiMH battery with lower ESR than Li-Ion per your recommendation.... and it has a more constant voltage output before drop-off when it begins to deplete.
Edits: 03/16/17
Just a bummer they need recharging. :)
Okay maybe I exaggerated a little in favor of the RPi.
By about $1300 !! ;-)
uRendu $640. Power supply $60.
A slight rounding error...:)
You were just trying to make a point. We forgive you. ;-)
Yes, that one! And several more.
Klaus,
Is this really necessary?
"That stuff is something for folks like Mercman who can hardly turn a screwdriver."
Yep. It was.
I honestly care about you.
I keep trying to get you away from that commercial brain-wash/marketing track.
You recall how much fun you had when attaching a stupid coil to
a cable?
Can you imagine how much fun it is to build your own system!?!?
Just try. And you'll never look back!
Enjoy.
You recall how much fun you had when attaching a stupid coil to
a cable?
LOL!!!!!Sound complicated and labor intensive, would be much easier to spend $500 on the same cable with a coil already attached.
Plus he would have more time to spend "quality time" with the family!
Edits: 03/16/17
Its okay, these days we have power screw drivers!
Just hold it and push the button.
He claims that his system is 'optimised'. I asked him how and he just replied with a load of bull.As you said, this is an indication that he has not optimised or gotten the best out of his components.
To power a little uRendu with a beast of a power supply designed for general computer use is just an indication of the above.
Edits: 03/13/17
1. I make no assertion as to the opimization of a board based computer that I've used for less than a week. I bought a list of parts recommended by folks here using what kernel tuning suggestions were suggested. Now Soundchekk is adding to the list. Great!
2. As for power supplies, Sonore recommends three models for use with the uRendu with 7V 2A capability. I wasn't going to spend $1k on their Signature version and really didn't want a cheap SMPS. I chose the third option. It would seem you don't understand the HDPlex has multiple individually selectable rails.
You cannot run a general purpose computer with a 2A supply.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/16/163540.html
This kind of post just misleads new comers (and even some older hands).
You can't even read two words correctly-neither one!
And apparently don't have the foggiest clue how to put that single weekend's session into context.
No one here should believe your claims.
Have some mastery of the English language - for which you clearly do not - that initial impression is just that. The term is called a "baseline experience". Do you understand the word "baseline"?
I compared what I bought to what I had. There was zero experimentation. I plugged it in as I use it in the other system and listened. Do you understand the difference in meaning between the words "experimentation" and "listening"?
ujustifiable claim.
quote the text you find "ujustifiable"? I don't have to foggiest clue as to what you refer. Do you?
Or is this yet another fabrication of what I've actually posted as you did with this post ?
Actual posted comment: "After extended listening"
Fmak's delusion: "After extensive testing"
No. Since you claim superior linguistic abilities, work it out for yourself.
And, please just DO not try any more the language card. It should be quite obvious to others here I have native English.
attempting to *support* even more delusionary claims. Do you really not get it?Honestly, I never expected a rational answer because - there clearly is none. Any more than I expect you to acknowledge your fabricated *quotes* from me. All one has to do is read your claim and the linked post and then wonder why it is you have such difficulty dealing with reality.
Do you actually have conversations with human beings? You know, someone asks a question and you respond. At least to that which they've said and not with an imaginative perspective of reality? You've never answered any number of questions I've asked you.
Do you not understand the words?
Are you uncomfortable with the answer?
Are you incapable of carrying on a conversation?
Why is that?Thanks for verifying your inability to substantiate English language skills here on Planet Earth. :)
Edits: 03/15/17
Out of all the posts here you guys spend more time and words arguing about nothing vs. posting something useful towards the topic.
Amazing....well maybe not, more predictable but still amazing.
he will someday respond to me with a cogent post or to a question.
I don't experience the same lack of conversational ability with anyone else here. For example, I don't agree with everything Soundchekk has offered, but he responds to my questions and I his. With your seemingly contradictory post about using USB output (given the previous posted picture) you responded in a logical manner explaining you actually use both. While at the same time, I've learned stuff from each of you. And many others here.
And if you're going to disagree with someone, at least address what they've actually posted, not creating text out of thin air. Especially when you link to the alleged source which contains what was actually written. That's a real head scratcher for me.
Perhaps it's time to acknowledge Frank lives in an artificial reality and is incapable of rational discourse.
but we know who you are talking about. ;-)
Edits: 03/16/17
.
I can understand your frustration. He was constantly ragging on me when I posted pictures about a "preliminary" setup to test for basic "functionality". He didn't understand those key words and went on to criticize my use of "crock clips" between my audio setup and bench power supply. Hello? "preliminary" and basic "functionality". He never got it.
have another fake excuse!
What are you talking about? Do you even know?
he does not.You will never find him quote a statement and discuss the merits of its contents. Can you say conversation?
Instead, all you find are nebulous and vacuous posts - some of which with fabricated content that attempt to convey... something?
Has anyone ever figured out what that is? :)
Edits: 03/15/17
And retention has cleared failed him.
..and again on the attack due to his comprehension issues.
nt
You're the one who jumped into this thread with nothing but nasty criticism (as you often do) on topics that only you seem unable to comprehend. Everyone else "gets it". Doesn't that tell you something?
And why continue with the taunts at E-Stat ? Haven't you embarrassed yourself enough with your endless carrying on? It's obvious to me who the real troll is here.
nt
You're not comparing RPI vs. MicroRendu!!!
Given that its impossible to compare a unit that is USB output only with one that is S/PDIF only, I'm comparing how folks actually use them. :)
Did u try PiCorePlayer? With all mods on (HDMI off - LED off asf)?
Are u streaming PCM or flac?
I think you've missed my previous posts where those questions are answered.
Off to the airport now at O'dark thirty!
You actually could plug your Rpi into your USB device like the uRu. No need to take the HAT off just select a different output.
This would be more of a direct comparison between devices, as it stands the Digi+ and your Audiophilio can affect the sound in very large ways.
Kind of an unfair advantage, like comparing two sprinters, one with sandals on and the other with $500 sprinting shoes....albeit the sandals might be really comfortable.
"...I'm comparing how folks actually use them..."
It is just you. Sorry. You're comparing two systems, your unique systems. Not just two devices.
The thread title is misleading, thus your thread and
conclusion is pretty useless to us folks.
If you intend to run a rather useful comparison "Pi vs. MicroRendu" hook your Audiophilio up to the Pi and microRendu. That at least would make a little sense to us folks.
You'd still don't know what software tweaks are implemented on the MicroRendu. One thing for sure. Svensson was closely following my
SB Touch adventures and trying these himself. I'm pretty sure he put quite a focus into that area too.
Then the USB ports of the PI are not known for audiophile qualities.
Bottom line. If I'd run a to me useful shootout on USB transports, I'd put at least something like a $100 iPurifier to the test environment. That still would make a nice combo and a bargain solution in comparison to the MR.
Enjoy.
Better still - how would I connect a USB to S/PDIF converter to a unit with only S/PDIF outputs?
Many folks have asked to provide my impressions for comparing the two. :)
"Many folks have asked to provide my impressions for comparing the two"
Yep. "the two". Not the six to ten.
Dynobot, in his response, tried to make clear what I'm talking about.
Sometimes people don't go into rooms because they are afraid of what they might see.
I suspect finding out the RPi is just as good or better than a uRu is not what many audiophiles really want to know, especially after spending all that money.I bet it's the same for other gear too. People tend to keep their high end expensive gear away from the cheap stuff... And never the two shall meet.
I used to be the same way, until 'just for kicks' I compared a cheap Valab DAC to a Lavry DAC and was shocked that the Valab was more musical. It took a lot of going back and forth comparisons before I was forced to face the truth. I sold the Lavry and turned in my audiophile badge. Same thing with the Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum, I tried to live it, after all it was a higher priced respected unit, loved by audiophiles
Edits: 03/13/17
No surprise. The Lavry resamples to 110 kHz or thereabouts and the clocking is suspect.
Back then I had a Anthem tube preamp. I spent $500 on a pair of Acoustic Zen IC's and a nice power cord thinking/hoping I could make that Lavry sound good....or at least listenable for more than a hour.
I tried my best to like it, but it was impossible.
A Pi alone won't make a great transport.
It requires a little effort to make it sing. But it's IMO possible.
Most people are just lazy and rather put a grand or more on the table
for the next potentially greatest thing ever - because somebody said so.
I agree with you on all accounts
The RPi still has USB ports, you can connect the USB converter and use it as outputs rather than the spdif. Just reboot and choose USB output instead of Digi+ Pro.I'm guessing that if both were RPi's [one spdif out and the other to your USB converter] they would sound different. The Digi+ is pretty good at $50 but I don't know if its on the same level as the Audiophilleo 2 a $500+ converter.
Then add on top of that the uRu is powered from a $400 Linear PS vs. a $11 wallwart....
I'd say power the uRu from a wallwart and use both as USB out to the Audiophilleo would be a fair fight.
But if you think about it, it took nearly $1k worth of peripherals to give the uRu a slight advantage over the RPi.
Hmmmmmmmm
Edits: 03/13/17 03/13/17 03/13/17
How many folks purchase a RPi, use the USB out and purchase a USB to S/PDIF converter? There is only one reason I use one - I have to. Unbeknownst to me at the time, the USB 2.0 input on the ARC DAC required a Windows based driver. Just recently, I got notification there is an upgraded board that supports Mac, but when I asked about the uRendu, the response was it doesn't support LInux. Gee, I thought Mac OS was essentially a Linux core. Go figure.
I've already observed the disparity in cost and specifically mentioned that perhaps what I'm really hearing is power supply differences.
Gee guys, I'm just comparing systems that folks might put together, not dissecting each and every piece. Maybe someone should compare a naked board to an acrylic one while they are comparing everything else under a microscope.
I am open to any further suggestions as to kernel settings that might prove to be beneficial which don't sacrifice usability or stability. I mentioned the buffer and hdmi_blanking to Sounchekk and since he did not respond, silly me I thought that meant there wasn't anything else. Now he's talking about disabling the LEDs?
Perhaps he or others might put together a complete list in a single place!
Actually I use my RPi with USB out.
My Dac has a self powered Amenero board inside. Meaning its essentially the same as having an outboard USB converter with I2S output....which is what the Amenero feeds the Dac as output.
The pic you posted of your RPi in DAC box on the 8th(sorry I'm traveling and embedding link is trickier with pad)What I see is an RCA cable coming out of what looks like my HiFiBerry Digi+!
Edit: especially with spell corrupt :)
Edits: 03/14/17
I have 4 RPis..... Two with Digi+ pro and to without
What are your observations between the two approaches? Do you use both because neither offers an sonic advantage?
Sorry for all the questions, but presumably this is the kind of information decided noobies to the Pi thing like me seek.
Thanks!
Initially I purchased the RPi to use with my Master 7 Dac. Again because it has its own self powered USB to I2S card my intentions were to only use USB out.
I purchased a Digi+ to see what all the hype was about. It was okay [just okay]. Ended up using it for my Pie-in-the-Box project with the RPi inside of the Dac….spdif out.
Then they came out with the Digi+ Pro with the two clocks. Again I just wanted to see, so I purchased one…it was much better, plus I could use it to power the RPi directly.
So I purchased a couple more RPi's, one for my tube Dacs and one for my Master 7. I like the sound of the Digi+ Pro vs. USB in my Havana tubed Dac so I ended up with
2x Digi+ Pro and a RPi for USB out to one Dac.
Sound wise I like feeding my Master 7 Asynch via USB, and letting the Amanero convert it to I2S.
I like feeding my Havana spdif over USB and I was forced to use spdif for my project.
Just when someone puts together a complete list, they'll discover a new planet along with different gravitational forces acting upon your Pi. It's a losing battle. Your system vs system comparison approach was just fine by me and probably not as susceptible to micro perturbations like individual components, LED's included. ;-)
Edits: 03/13/17
Sure, system vs. system is fine. Just as long as its understood that you are not comparing one individual part of the system.Usually when a comparison is done people try to eliminate the variables so that only the 'two' things being compared.
Dependent Variable = Sound
Independent Variable = Streamer
Estat Independent Variable[s] = Streamer + Power Supplies [Wallwart, HDPlex] + USB Converter + OS/Software + SPDIF Cable + Digi+ HAT + Music Material ?[DSD etc]Hopefully any experiment will only have 'one' independent variable and the setup will be identical.
Edits: 03/15/17 03/15/17 03/15/17 03/15/17
Thx.I hope he'll get it now.
"fair fight"Nope. The MicroRendu comes with a well done USB port.
Most of us know what the known USB gadgets do to the sound.
That's why I said he should add one of these USB gadgets
to the bill.
Otherwise I wouldn't see a fair chance for the naked RPI to beat the MicroRendu.
Except.
If the Audiophillio (or any other USB DAC/interface) is that good that upstream originated mess wouldn't have much of an impact, what would this tell us then !?!? Something about RPI vs. MicroRendu!!?? Hmmh. Maybe!?!?
It could also tell us something about the Audiophillio !?!?
His comparison can easily be questioned - about fairness - from several angles.
However. If somebody is looking for a nice SPDIF solution I guess he might have a valid story about a system - his system - and not a device.
Obviously for now we havn't taken his DAC into the scope. That one will play its own role again.
Edits: 03/13/17 03/13/17
Yup, microRendu comes with a "well done USB port", and Ethernet. Pi combines multiple USB ports and 10/100 Ethernet on a single hub. Even a PC or Mac will have separate USB hubs for multiple USB ports, and a separate Gigabit Ethernet controller.Does it matter sonically?
Edits: 03/13/17
"Does it matter soncially?"
If you'd ask Archimago: No way. All measurements look the same. It's all in our heads.
From my perspective: Everything matters! How much it matters is a different question and a very personal matter.
Enjoy.
Some of these guys either have suspect hearing, or more probably suspect music and equipment setup.
I bet all of us have suspect hearing to some degree.
I think many of us take this hobby to serious and stop enjoying music, but instead get caught up analyzing sound.
I think....At least it should matter.
But then it might not.
Edits: 03/13/17
is why most folks here don't use USB for audio out.
I don't think the USB 'situation' makes any real difference.
I have 4 RPi's two with the Digi+ Pro and two without. I normally use one of those small adapters to just plug the RPi right into my Dac via USB...Audiogd Master 7.
.
nt
Cut-Throat
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