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In Reply to: Re: Turntable Hype posted by Pat D on September 13, 1999 at 16:52:21:
Pat,I'm not sure why you think there is no "method" in Dan's comparison or mine. We can do no more that you can, save play the original LP and it;s CD reissue. In every case, the LP sounds much more like real music being played in a real space. The CD sounds artificial (which it is, a point I'll return to). We could carry this even further to different pressings of the same LP. Does a Shaded Dog 1S/1S sound superior or different to a Shaded Dog 15S/15S? Probably. I can't see that it matters (as I said before)that different masters might be used. Since every LP I own sounds more like real music than its CD reissue, the only conclusion I think is possible is that the current digital medium is the reason. Why?
Digital recording is discrete sample of a continuum. The intervals between the samples are approximated by numerical approximation algoritms that converge on a solution. Converge in this sense means "get in the neighborhood of". The algoritms are incapable of deriving an analytical solution, therefore some error terms 9truncation, round-off0 are always part of the solution, i.e part of the recording you are listening to on your CDP. This is what i mean by artificial. The interpolations between samples "fill in" the missing data using linear (straight line) apporximations, yet a sine wave is composed of millions of little straight lines connected together.
The result in these approximations is retention of the fundamental, but increasing diminuition of overtones. The spatial cues that we subliminally respond to when listening to an analog recording haver gone missing; there is no sense of real music in a real space. This is not a matter of preference, it is how the process works. If you return to the AES journals of the early eighties, you will find a large number of published papers that point out the shortcomings of the recently established industry standard of 16/44.
Now you may prefer CD because of it ease of use or its relative lack of surface noise and tape hiss, but as a reproducer of real music in real space, it's severely flawed. I have heard 78s that, for certain instrument, sound more real than any CD (or LP for that matter).
The Accuphase DP-75, if not the best, is certainly one of the best CDPs out there. It uses eight DACs per channel, and is the best CD sound I've heard to date. But a good LP on my Linn beats it every time. And every non-audiophile I've had over and done the comparison for left speechless with the lower jaw on their chest. Make of it what you will.
....And every non-audiophile I've had over and done the comparison for left speechless with the lower jaw on their chest. Make of it what you will.....What were they given to drink at these listening sessions Phil,hehehe
regards rod
I make of it that you prefer LPs to CDs. However, I don't generally do so.As to your method, I simply point out that you have not shown that it is the digital process itself that is at fault, rather than something in the production process.
Your account of the digital reproduction process is not a proof of sonic superiority. It is at best an explanation of it, if such superiority were established. I am not a techie, but as I understand it, the basic reason why CDPs do not produce stepped 44.1 Hhz square waves is simply that their frequency response is limited, filtered off, above the audible range. Square waves imply an extremely wide frequency response, so if you pass the square wave through a filter, it is rounded off.
You may say I prefer CDs because of their convenience, low noise, though you forgot the extremely low flutter, flat, consistent requency response, low distortion, and so on. But, I also like the sounds recorded on them. Analog and digital are recording, storage, and playback mediums, and the quality of the recording stored on them is of primary importance. I happen to think that the digital medium is better than the tapes and LPs, which is not to deny they are often good enough. Since some of the best recordings I have ever hear are on CD, I have no reason to doubt this.
I have heard a lot of music in real, acoustic space, and I perform some of it (and you could say that I'm an acoustic singer, not a mic' singer). As far as I'm concerned, CDs can produce at least as much of an illusion of music in real space as can LPs. As I say, when it comes to preferences and experience, mine are as good as yours.
but if you do not think my "account" of the digital process is proof, I suggest some remedial courses in calculus; numerical approximation theory and numerical models for ODEs and PDEs. It's fine to prefer it, but it's simply not accurate or real. You obviously are enamored of your delusions, but current digital technology is woefully inadequate for accurate music reproduction. Prefer it if you must, just don't reduce cogent arguments against the standard to "PREFERENCE".
Phil,My limited English prevents me from understanding what the hell you're talking about, but I surely agree. The last couple of days I've been thinking about selling my CD-collection, because it's no match to vinyl.
I'm only spinning records nowadays and everytime I hear a CD, over here, at work or where-ever I begin to smile and think: 'Go away, you digital bastard' and there's pain in my heart for not discovering vinyl earlier and not having listened to my father who always said he didn't like the 'sound' of CDs and refuted my arguments pro CD without any arguments just trusting his own ears as I tend to believe now. He always spoke about chilly and liveliness recordings and at the time I didn't understand him.....Am I ready to qualify for the audiophile-exams?
Rob
but it sure sounds like you're close;-).
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