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With the new cannon of summer camp songs replacing hynms at the typical church service should we be supprised at the superficial level of commitment required of the members? I could not distance myself of this thought as I listened to the impassioned plea of the speaker to increase our commitement to prayer and grandious world changing actions. Within my lifetime I have seen the replacement of artistic music written as an offering to God with tunes requiring ten minutes at the piano to compose and allowing the calculation of ones 401K return while singing along with the band leader a reasonable compromise of 15 minutes. While the chorus leader fights to win the attention tug-of-war between the tunes and the board meeting tomorrow, the trophy of clay is never really scrutinized. At what price have we paid to invoke emotions and drive attentions? Does it really matter if the attention paid to the music is only half hearted? Is the result really any different than one who is deaply sucked into an emotional high?Some say we need to strive for a more simpler time or meet the masses at their own level. Who listens to Bach, Luther or Wesley anyway? With the expectations we have for the congregations today we should not be supprised when the scope of the commitement is limited to the sidewalk. The speaker talked of times of prayer. Hmmm, shall we look at the bulletin again? After the emotional rollercoaster of the praise band its hard to focus on hard prayer. Lets keep it light. Don’t want to quench the spirit you know….
Maybe the Church thinks it needs to follow the populas where ever they go instead of striving for the high ground where people are challenged and must be willing to sacrifice. Certainly, the business model says find your customer’s needs and fill them. I remember when people sought after God and found what He wanted and strived to do it.
Scott W
I really appreciate everones posts. Now, if I can only put these comments together in a cohesive manner such that I can effectively respond to those who are pushing the music of today...
Scott W
Scott,
{Some say we need to strive for a more simpler time or meet the masses at their own level. Who listens to Bach, Luther or Wesley anyway? With the expectations we have for the congregations today we should not be supprised when the scope of the commitement is limited to the sidewalk. The speaker talked of times of prayer. Hmmm, shall we look at the bulletin again? After the emotional rollercoaster of the praise band its hard to focus on hard prayer. Lets keep it light. Don’t want to quench the spirit you know….}
If I may, I would summarize your statement of the above to the simple "feel good philosophy" that not only plagues some of today's church music, but also "pop culture" in general.
In my own examination of the subject of spirituality in music, I find music that reflects upon either learning (in this case discipline and discipling), admonition, or thankfulness/altruism tends to have a deeper and more meaningful/lasting effect. Thus, there can be a lasting effect not just simply in emotion, but in thought. Insight is often developed from the music that requires a little thought into its meaning or even additional time to reflect upon or "digest" (cognitive dissonance can be a powerful tool for personal/spiritual change). As for Bach, IMO much discipline is found here through the distinct emphasis on musical restraint. It is truly unfortunate today to see such a decline on musical restraint in favor of music that appeases immediate spiritual gratification. To paraphrase and recite words from a sociology professor of mine in my college days, God has been reduced down to a "cosmic vending machine" to serve the people's "emotional appeal". It would appear that music in church is following a corresponding path ??? In conclusion, "Put another coin in the jukebox baby" !!!
Regards and my 2 cents :-)
Exactly. When there's more divine simplicity, it must be Bach. Who can keep his eyes dry hearing 'Erbarme dich' in the Mattheaus-passion'? If there was anyone besides Bruckner so devoted to God, it's Bach and anyone who's saying it's archaic, should open his or her ears. I'm atheistic, but hearing some of Bach's or Bruckner's pieces makes you hear where they got their inspiration from. Popularizing will only cause the church to get empty, there's got to be some mystic and mistery the way the church accompanies their rituals, otherwise it would become an empty shell.No bs in music and no bs in church, both are too established institutes to be popularized in favour of those who can't open their ears or are not willing to do so. 'Emotion' goes as far as you're willing to let genius in.
Rob
nt
Fact: I'm not religious, end of sentence.I did, however, visit my mom last summer, and went off to the old home church for an obligatory visit.
Stunning, just stunning, the "music". They've replaced the Hymnals twice since I disbelieved, and each time, they seem to have thrown out all the musical hymns for things that are just awful musically.
They still have some of the religious motif, but no more redemption, brimstone, church-triumphant stuff, it's all "we are nice"..
Now, nothing wrong with being nice, but write some good songs about it, ok????
JJ
To be blunt, recorded music. That's what happened. Before the advent of recorded music, if you wanted music, well, for the most part you had to make it yourself. In older times, practically every home would have a piano or other musical instruments, and people would learn to play them. For decades, all people have to do for music is turn on the radio or play a record, tape or CD.Nowadays, many people can hardly sing at all, and don't play an instrument. This latter applies to me, too, so I know whereof I speak. So, it is hard to find a pool of people from which to draw enough with musical inclinations to have a good church choir, and the congregation often can't sing along with them, anyway.
I could also mention Vatican II, though many good things were done there in other areas.
Fine points you make about challenging a listener both musically and morally, Scott. I'm in agreement with you that values are not to be adjusted downward to meet popular opinion, and often find myself stating that premise to my 16 year old son when he tries justifying some of his less than perfect behavior with the rationale that "I'm not so bad - you should see what some of the kids in my school are doing... things are different than when you were 16, Dad" To that I tell him that values are steadfast and permanent - good is good and evil is evil and they haven't changed since I was a teenager, even though the popular interpretation of them has. As to the connection with music (and God, do I love the convergence of concepts for the purpose of thought or discussion!)... here is my opinion; whether it addresses your question, I'm not sure.First of all I do not confuse spirituality with religion. God is where one finds Him, and with me it is in my heart, rather than in a church. That may account for my reluctance to condone any group's imposition of moral (or cultural) values on anyone. With that approach we veer too close to censorship, don't you think? I believe that God allows us the dignity to find our own path - struggles, missteps and all. That personal belief has a spiritual parallel in my life, as my personal history has had many, many such struggles and missteps, and yet has eventually taken me to this moment, where I can exalt in, among other things, music. Music, the ultimate and universal communication, understood by all, and used for reverance in so many cultures. In my personal experiences, I've been rewarded by being able to tap into the reverence of a composition that has been intended as tribute or reverence for God, and have only been able to hope to experience a fraction of the humanity and spirituality that the composer experienced as he was inspired. I believe God is evident in all good music (particularly in jazz), but my sense of spirituality is especially stirred when I realize that the composition or performance is specifically directed to a higher power, whether through Coltrane's "A Love Supreme", or Van Morrison's "Have I told You Lately That I Love You" - examples of a higher form of art are all around us and open us up to a glorious connection with our spirituality, and the music can be good as well as blessed!
Thanks for reminding me.
Mike M
You said among others, two interesting things;"I tell him that values are steadfast and permanent - good is good and evil is evil and they haven't changed since I was a teenager"
"That may account for my reluctance to condone any group's imposition of moral (or cultural) values on anyone"
What do you mean by these two statements?
I agree with the first statement and add that it hasn't changed ever. In the second, do you mean a group or government shouldn't push their own idea of morals?
Scott W
Thanks Scott. First of all, I'm not a philosopher (although, from afar, I do love wisdom ), I'm only speaking from my own personal experience.The first statement is self-explanatory. Moral values should transcend cultural values. I only said that moral values haven't changed since I was a teenager, because that was the comparison my son made. He believes that we were so naive or innocent in the '60s, that in some way the bar has been raised (or lowered, actually) with regard to the level of transgressions that are accepted. I suppose things have deteriorated culturally and societally, with school shootings, etc.., but the need to maintain our values remains. Kids always fall back on - "everyone does it" as a rationalization. So? Its tougher out there, the rules may be changing... but the goal is the same - we have to strive to maintain personal moral values, regardless of the cultural signals.
The second statement, and this is where my personal experiences come in - I simply just don't believe that any organized religion, or organized religion in general - has a monopoly on having a connection with God. I spent a lot of years in churches and never felt the Presence. It wasn't until it became an intimate, personal need for me that I was able to develop any spirituality. I believe its that way for many others, too. I'm not criticizing organized religion; I think they are fine for those who find what they need through them, but they are simply NOT the ONLY way. There are other ways, more personal ways, and in at least my own experience, more effective ways to live a moral, ethical life (or try to, at least). So... the same holds true for the cultural values. I'm very very nervous concerning censorship, very wary of those who believe self-righteously that they know better than the rest of us. It may be the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" idea, but I believe divinity is present in all music. Who has the correct interpretation of what music is or is not moral, spiritual, or God-given? Does music have to be "religious" music by definition in order to be spiritual? Is Amy Grant really more divinely inspired than John Coltrane? Is she even more spiritually driven or more divinely inspired than say Charlie Parker, who struggled and ultimately destroyed himself through drug abuse? I don't happen to think so, and in fact I more easily sense the spark of divinity in the heightened creativity of jazz. I suppose its that way as well for classical music, or for that matter, any serious music.
But wait, don't get me wrong about a group or gov't not pushing their ideas of morals... unfortunately not everyone has the same sense or interpretation of right / wrong !! So we do unfortunately have to enforce some of our mutually decided upon moral values (laws).
There are many facets of these topics, they make for good discussions, and a thin line seperates the positions we can take on either side of debating them.
Mike M
Well, the short answer is that maybe you should speak to your pastor/minister/rector/priest about your concerns.As a lifelong Anglican, I have grown up in a rather "stuffy" sacred music tradition. The congregation always sings hymns from the hymnal; and the choir usually presents one or two more ambitious pieces during parts of the service when the congretation isn't singing. These are always pieces by significant composers of sacred music.
That said, I have been a guest at several services by African-American churches with gospel music. Although different than my tradition, the music certainly was moving and it wasn't "simple" or "dumbed-down" anything.
In many churches, the issue comes down to 2 things. First, the lyrics for the old hymns are -- let's be honest, here -- kind of dated. I think that's a problem for some folks, even though the music may be excellent. Secondly, the demands of the more "serious" sacred works on those performing them are considerable and may be beyond the abilities of a typical church choir made up of members of the congregation. Many churches, including mine, deal with this by having a choir of paid, professional musicians. (Our church has 3 choirs, the "professional" choir, the "parish" choir (comprised of members of the congregation) and the "junior" choir (the kids). They don't all sing at every service, of course. I have mixed feelings about a professional choir, but I'm ok with the idea.
Maybe you should suggest that your church have some services that feature "traditional" church music, if there is a desire for that. It would be a shame if disagreements over choice of music separated some of the members from their church . . .
I agree about the different styles of worship music such as gospel. That to me is a legitimate music form. The stuff I'm referring to is the music of the 30-50 yrs old white suburbanites.
Scott W
The "koom-ba-ya" stuff and all that? The moral earnestness of Peter, Paul & Mary in their heyday? ("Folk music=the forgotten music of the 60s")I'm with ya' 100 percent. It's treacle.
I had a feeling you weren't talking about gospel. ;-)
Have a chat with your minister and/or music director is still the best advice I can give.
What's really the bottom line here. Your taste in music or maybe something a little deeper.
I might be wrong, but I always thought that it was not the style, but the message that seperated secular from faith. Those old hymns at one time were the popular music of the era.
I think that society in general is changing, and not for the possitive. No passion, more nomadic in nature, the MTV generation if you will. And depending on you view of the Church,Interpretation of Scripture, this should not be a suprise, but predicted.
You thoughts would be appreciated.Agape,
Jeff
Something deeper and the lack thereof being exposed through the music chosen. Easy music and simple lyrics require little thought which sets the tone for the rest of the service. I have heard the argument about the message versus the messenger before. The problem here is both, the manipulated, excessive feeling based services and a message fit for young teen summer camp. If the world is to be changes we need maturity of adults in service of God. People want to be kids forever, we need to grow up.
Scott W
Scott,A twenty-something billionaire .com entrepreneur was recently quoted by CNN as saying, "God was THE religion of the past millenium... Money is THE religion of the new millenium." Well, let the good times roll,
for now. A future recession/depression/war/whatever will surely bring churches and church music back to
the roots that you and many others, no doubt, remember. Always has. Keep the faith.~Jay
Sounds like you are choosing the wrong church -- our church has a superb choir (in fact, just won the CBC choral competition) and every Sunday we are treated to the full range of the Christian repertoire, from before Bach to after Rutter.Perhaps because your church is playing the "cannon" rather than the "canon"? ;~)
The decision on a church involves many things including music, doctrine, style, childrens programs, etc. I have found churches that excell in one or more but none so far that do everything the way I like it. Hmmm, does the Music Lane have a church yet :^)
Scott W
Scott - as a true non-believer who has been inside a church
about 5 times in the last 35 or so years, my take is this:
as a church, you have to give the members what they want
or they will go elsewhere. This apparently includes simpler
music. It goes along with the general "dumbing-down" of
everything these days. So be it. Keep the customer satisfied
and you will prosper.Mike
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