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In Reply to: RE: When I heard Keith Johnson speak at one of the CA Audio Shows. . . posted by banpuku on March 07, 2017 at 10:48:16
How often does anyone hear orchestra music played full out live in an empty venue? That is just as unnatural as a studio recording, even if it does have more of the acoustic of the hall.
In concert, there is always a certain amount of low level noise due to people moving in their seats, breathing, etc. That's even in the quietest moments when no one coughs or unwraps candies. We can say that that very low level noise doesn't amount to much, but in a hall that seats 1,000-2,000, that sound is definitely a part of what one hears. There is no such thing as black in the audience during a live performance.
So, even recordings of live performances usually do not capture the audio that we hear sitting 12 rows center in orchestra, much less in loge.
Perhaps this is why I still prefer vinyl/analog for much of my home listening. Even a pristine LP will not plumb the depths of digital audio. As a result, to me, it has a more "natural" audio than most digital media.
There are no universals. Some digital recordings are really very good, and many analog recordings are not.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
Follow Ups:
It seems that many engineers are so afraid of getting ANY kind of audience noise into the mix at all that they go for the "forest of highly directional microphones" approach, which cuts out everything not directly in front of them. Again, this is not a problem with digital per se IMHO. That Strauss DVD-Audio which I posted about elsewhere in this thread is a beautiful corrective to this over-controlled approach to live recording.
I don't understand why noises from vinyl playback would satisfying one's craving for the natural ambiance of a concert - after all, they're not even the same kind of noises. We need candy-wrapper, cough, and cell phone random noise generators to REALLY get the proper ambiance of a concert! As I mentioned in another post, this a part of "the absolute sound" I could do without! ;-)
Who said anything about "noises from vinyl playback"? I specifically said pristine vinyl. No snap crackle pop, excellent analog audio.
I'm talking about the SNR. The best analog/vinyl pressings sound gorgeous, with visceral dynamic range and tactile presence and a sense of true natural audio. But vinyl cannot equal the SNR of digital. The digital crowd perceive this as an advantage of digital, because, you know, measured numbers are the whole story. But in reality, it is the key to the naturalness of analog audio. It just sounds more "real" than digital. (The neophytes call it "warmth" but it is not warmth, it is just closer to the real world experience.)
Once again, no universals.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
But still, I don't agree with all of your assertions:
"But vinyl cannot equal the SNR of digital" - Very true!
"The digital crowd perceive this [i.e., vinyl's more restricted SNR] as an advantage of digital, because, you know, measured numbers are the whole story." - Nope. Hearing is believing! (You know, if it sounds good, it is good!)
"But in reality, it [the restricted SNR of vinyl] is the key to the naturalness of analog audio. It just sounds more "real" than digital." - I can't speak for others, but, surely you'll agree that how "real" something sounds is, at least in part, system dependent, whether analog or digital.
"The neophytes call it [the restricted SNR of vinyl] "warmth" but it is not warmth, it is just closer to the real world experience." - I don't think we have a common understanding of "warmth" here. My experience is that when most people talk about audio "warmth", they're referring to a slight elevation of the bass frequencies as well as a slight roll-off of the highs, as well as the "more pleasant" even-order harmonic distortions.
"Once again, no universals." - Once again, agreement! ;-)
Well, the argument between analog vs digital has gone on for decades now, and there are those who still; prefer the sound of analog and those who love digital. I'm really not interested in going into all that anymore.Given the choice between a pristine LP and a CD/SACD/DVD-A/BluRay, I will buy the LP. Because too often, I buy a digital release of an LP that I own, thinking it might sound better. Sometimes it does, like if the LP was poorly engineered or poorly pressed. But usually I still gravitate back to the LP, because it just sounds more natural to me.
That's my ears and my system. Others are free to listen to whatever music they like in whatever format they prefer, and I'm perfectly okay with whatever they want to do -- MP3s thru earbuds, I really don't care.
Coincidentally, there is a new thread on Vinyl Forum that directly addresses my point.
Digital Recordings on Vinyl
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
Edits: 03/08/17
There is also audience noise, sometimes excessive, including cellphones, bronchial explosions, foot-shuffling, program drops, whistling hearing aids. Once in a while, a quiet recording with a black background is a relief!
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