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In Reply to: Music and Ideology,Philosophy and or Politics posted by ArdRi on January 17, 2007 at 17:42:06:
The world of a hundred years ago, or even 50 years ago, was quite different than it is now. And as others have said, if you condemn every artist (or writer or politician or businessman) for what they did 100 years ago that is not acceptable in today's society, you would find very few people left to feel good about. They lived in a different era, in a world that had different standards.And I've discovered that retrospective boycotts accomplish little.
I am more inclined to focus on issues that persist today. Issues that are a matter of choice. Like the racist, sexist Vienna Philharmonic. "The Vienna Philharmonic is an orchestra of white men that plays music by white men for white people." And, "I sense very strongly and simply that only men sit around me. And as I said, I would not want to gamble with this unity." Current membership of the orchestra -- 136 men, 1 woman (a harpist who is set off to the side). Apparently 1 man is not 100% caucasian, though you'd never know from looking.
These things are repugnant and offensive by today's standards, and probably more deserving of moral questionning than the sexual misconduct or politics of people long dead.
Follow Ups:
So much for the gamelan!
Personally, I feel that exclusion of anyone from an orchestra specifically on the basis of gender or race is reprehensible. I realize that my opinion is in the context of contemporary Western culture, where women and racial and cultural minorities have achieved a level more approaching equity with white males. That equity is a cultural value to which most subscribe in the West these days, and although it has not yet been achieved, it still serves as an ideal. Europe also holds to that ideal, in some cases to much greater success than in the U.S.I'm not sure what gamelan has to do with VPO. Other cultures in other parts of the world hold different values. However, if a Westerner had achieved excellence through years of education, training and experience, I do think s/he should be able to participate in a gamelan ensemble. And in fact, an Australian named Gary Watson did study in Bali with a noted teacher for many years, although I don't really know how accomplished he became by the standards of those who have studied and lived the instument for a lifetime. So I'm not sure the example is really equivalent to VPO, where there are many talented and experienced musicians who can perform classical music as well as white males.
Why? Are you contemplating forming a Ku Klux Klan Symphony Orchestra here in the U.S., Clark?
If a private group like the Musikverein -- or for that matter even a charitable group -- want to limit their membership, why should an outsider care? And especially, make a law? Do we want to require that Chanticleer be integrated? The Budapest Quartet?Besides, isn't it *their* loss, not ours?
And Gary Watson has played concerts and teaches gamelan. What's your point?So, you are of the opinion that the music hall should turn away women and non-whites -- just don't allow them in the building? How about Jews and Muslims? Let's ban them too, eh? So that way, we just have our Nazi Aryan orchestra playing for the white male nation?
Although VPO may pretend it is a private organization, the members of the orchestra are, in fact, drawn from and almost identical to the Vienna State Opera Orchestra, which is a publicly funded insitution. The opera orchestra also has had the same ban on women and non-whites. So, the opera orchestra and all members of the VPO are on the government payroll. I have not seen the ledger, but I would bet that the Musikverein was renovated with a substantial amount of government funding. So, this is not a private club. It is a state-supported institution.
Chanticleer, Budapest Quartet and other small ensembles are not state-supported groups.
But, you know Clark, if you want to get your KKK Symphony started, I would suggest that Boston is not the place to do it. :~)
Suppose the music hall is featuring a male drag show; then according to you it must include women.Suppose the music hall is featuring a hip hop show; then according to you it must include whites (in fair proportion?).
Suppose...
See, I advocate government with defined and limited powers. You seem to want Authority to step in and break up the club. I can't go for that.
Clark, I think there is a difference between private groups and government-supported institutions. By law in most Western countries -- and I think by the value standards of the vast majority of the public in the Western world -- the government, its agencies, and it's institutions may not discriminate on the basis of sex, race, or religious preferences. In any other Western country, the VPO would have been either forced to "integrate" or lose is government funding long ago. That it is permitted to continue its discriminatory practices while being a government-supported institution is the problem.Although I've been joking about a KKK Symphony, that would be the equivalent in the U.S. If it were an orchestra supported entirely by private funds, using facilities that were privately owned, I personally would not attend their concerts or buy any recordings they made, and I would despise their underlying credo, but I would support their legal right to exist and perform.
However, the VPO is a government-supported orchestra. Their continuing racism and sexism is unconscionable and indefensible in a Western country. I will not buy their recordings or attend their concerts, and I will speak out against them and the government that continues to fund them.
That's my choice. Your choice may be different, as you seem to be more tolerant of racism and sexism than I am.
And in answer to your other examples, I have no problem with drag shows. I thought they were fun when I lived in SF. And I have no problem with rap and hip-hop concerts, other than the fact that I don't enjoy the music.
How about if the government simply withholds support or funding, effectively not "sanctioning" what is, in essence, an institution formed around some concept of "purity". Gay choirs and ethnic ensembles have their right to exist, but public funding of such bodies is always problematic as it is here. The VPO, if it is actively funded by the state, wouldn't be allowed to exist in the United States.Let's paint this another way. Suppose the Boston Symphony Orchestra were to decide, internally, that "all diversity must go", and it reverted to a white man's club ala the VPO. You'd support that?
obviate its appreciation.
From that to espousing your conservative credo is a far step.
Racism is hideous wherever and whenever it appears.
Austrians do nothing but reinforce their past as something other than an aberration.
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