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I need some good advice with this one. I have been using 3.6r's for the last few years with a Proceed BPA2 amp. Recently I've been trying to decide whether to get a Pass Labs 150.8 or maybe to get a 30.8 and try biamping, with the Proceed being used for the bass side. Would one way or the other be better sonics wise? I know I would have to get a Xover which would add to the cost, and also more wiring( possibly sonics affected). I hear so much about Bi-Amping these that I have been thinking about it for quite some time. Anybody doing this that didn't notice a big difference? Or should I just stick with a 150.8, any advice is surely needed. Any other suggestions for amps for the Hi's and Mid's is welcome also.
Follow Ups:
The low crossover is 200hz. You need about 60% power ABOVE that and 40% BELOW.......
If you want to 'redline' the amps at about the same level.....
Too much is never enough
Sounds like you are already going down this path, but a good way to validate whether or not bi-amping is a large enough gain and therefore worthwhile is to ask: Has anyone actively bi-amped, found there to be little benefit, and then decided to undo it?
I have not been on this forum religiously over the last few years, but I don't recall anyone going back to 2 channels of amplification and reinstalling the stock crossover box. :)
This video may be helpful:
Very good point! I'm guessing in another month or so I'll be able to report on it.
Well the new-for me at least-emotiva XPA-DR1 amps are sounding much better than my Proceed BPA2 was,keepers for sure,now I can start getting the other amps and Crossover together for bi-amping. I already had a dedicated outlet for my other amp, and another for the subs. Had to keep the 2 sets of electronics as separate as I could.
Edits: 01/11/22
I get other halves not wanting 6' tall speakers in the LR when one has another decent room to play in.
Things happen for a reason also, they sound better downstairs than they did upstairs in the living room. Whats funny though is that I came home from work after everything was moved, and there were 2 6' tall curios sitting in boxes on the floor of the living room. It all worked for both of our hobbies.
It's a sign; the significant other misses the speakers! Aww, cute, haha
We still have a old Yamaha receiver and 2 speakers in the LR,she uses it more than I do lol. Background music and connected to the TV. She Loves it! So I'm good.
My wife has never requested anything other than the built in LG TV speakers. And when we watch TV or movies up there, it really doesn't bother me. Part of that is having 10 & 7 year old girls though, not a love of crash, boom, bang. More like Frozen, Willy Wonka, Lorax etc. for the 17th time!
Lol,when my son was of the age that everything was about him it was All Blues Clues and Chucki Cheese Parties-that was my wife job-no hanging with the big rat for me lol. He's grown and living in our retirement home in Florida,my wife has 3 more years of work, than Goodbye Nassau County! Already have a tube setup down there for when were there,about 3-4 months a year for now.
Nice! We are about in the same stage in life: my significant other has about 5 years, and I have been making many improvements in the hi-fi as I am semi-retired and spending many hours enjoying it lately.
Have you owned the 3.6R since new? I am just curious on your rebuild/tweeter replacement. It made me think of mine and when I might replace the tweets:
How long do they typically last? Anyone else replaced them after 5 years? 10 years?
And what else did you do: internal mid/tweet crossover mods?
Yes,enjoy your life every day because sooner or later That Day Will Be Your Last Day! With that out of the way, I bought my speakers around 6 years ago,I had 1.7i's at that time and I had a chance to get these for a great price, for me it was hard to go back to the 1.7's after hearing the ribbon tweeter. After I had the speakers for 4-5 years I could hear the cracking-breakup at certain frequencies, so I just lived with it. I got progresssively worse so thats when I started investigating repairing my speakers,I had read enough of other stories about this issue so I pretty much knew what the problem was. Thanks to pictures and advice from fellow forum members I was able to fix my speakers,at the same time I ordered a new set of tweeters since in my mind I would have a brand new set of 3.6r's,tweeters sounded fine but I did it anyway. No problems since then. The mods I did are MYE Stands which was a definite audible improvement,I bypassed the fuses and the Attenuation connection,and last bit not least I changed all of the connectors on the panels to Cardas connectors. I didn't make any changes to the Xover boxes. The changes I made were defiantly worth it to me and pretty easy.
Yeah I've done some things to them too :)
I still have the silver wire and fuses showing, but attenuators and fuses have been bypassed internally.
I have a few more changes on the way, with my room and an etherregen, then next step would be to think about rebuilding the internal crossovers and rewiring them with some decent wire.
I will search posts of those who have done this previously before starting a new thread though.
I see that GR Research (Rhymik) seems pretty knowledgable on speakers and I have noticed he has a few youtube videos on maggie upgrading, maybe he can sell upgraded crossover networks for the 3.6?
Enjoy every single minute of it, because you will miss it in 10 years :)
Assuming you mean miss the little ones in 10 years, absolutely! Can't even express how much they mean to me... any crazy adoring parent gets it.
I won't miss the TV, as hopefully in 10 years I'll have bigger. Haha
That post just made me think of watching kids movies in particular. My daughter and I have many fond memories of watching Shrek, Nemo, Toy Story, all the Harry Potter's multiple times, and of course I introduced her to Star Wars etc. Back when I actually bought DVD's, before streaming was possible. Much father/daughter bonding happened.
A really cool part was when we rewatched Shrek when she was 18 or so, and she then commented that she picked up on so many scenarios that went over her head when she watched it when she was 7 or so. Such an awesome family movie.
Another oft watched in our house! Toy Story they just got into.
They currently give me heck for Star Wars, too violent... one day.
Very cool watts, thanks!
My multi purpose Mancave,I turn the Maggies to face the wall when we watch movies, took some time but after the boss kicked my system out of the living room I had to figure out a way to have 2 separate systems in one space, the HT speakers are behind the screen wall. Works out good for both setups.
I've bi-amp'ed my MG20's going on 9 yrs now the only regret is not going three way.
I use a Marchand XM44 two way; using a pair Emotiva XPA-1 always on the bottom and various tube and SS amps on the mid/top.
In one configuration The Emotiva pumped 1k watt of high current, tight-fisted bass whilst the top end was ran by a pair Quicksliver V4 200w tubers (above).
Advantage of bi-amping for me was zero strain from either amp along with the flexibility to switch in different amps along the way. In fact the Emotiva when push to (literally) wall shaking levels never once got hot.
Thats a great setup for sure. So you wished to of gone with a 3way Xover so that you could of controlled subwoofers, or for another reason, do you have a favorite pairing of amps to go with the emotivas? Or is it just for a change of mood. Thanks for the info. it seems like bi-amping is the way to go to get the best out of these.
If you are just thinking of 3.6s (no subs), then:
* bi-amping means the external XO box (bass/mids) is replaced by a 2-way active XO and you use 4 channels of amplification.
* tri-amping means the internal XO is removed/bypassed, and the 3-way active XO handles the mid/ribbon XO as well. So you need 6 channels of amplification.If you have a pair of subs in addition to the 3.6s then:
* the external XO box (bass/mids) is replaced by an active XO, plus the active XO needs to handle the sub handover. So you need a 3-way active XO and 4 channels of amplification on the 3.6s ... plus the sub amplifiers.
* if you go 3-way active on the 3.6s, the active XO handles the mid/ribbon XO as well. So you need a 4-way active XO with 6 channels of amplification on the 3.6s ... plus the sub amplifiers.This is what I did. :-))
Andy
Edits: 01/08/22
Gotcha I'm just trying to replace the Xover Box and get a better sound. for me it would be just the 2 way with the sub outputs.
... as you are just replacing the external (bass panels/mids+tweeters) XO box.
Yes, you can do this with a 2-way active XO ... but this means you are:
* using the subs' own LP filter
* and running the 3.6s full range.
But a better arrangement, I suggest - which you can do with a miniDSP unit - is to apply a HP filter to the bass panels. This:
a. reduces the distortion that the single-ended bass panels have when they excurt at low frequencies (and get (relatively!) far away from the magnets), and
b. lessens the load on the amplifier driving the bass panels.
Andy
Gotcha,I started reading about the unit that you suggested and it looks promising. I didn't really think I should do something about them being full range until you mentioned it, this unit will at least let me pick HP Xover for between speakers and subs.
.
I've since sold the Quickslivers and then went with four Emotivas.About a year later I picked up a pair of PS Audio M700 monoblocks and a Halcro MC20 which has been pure bliss ever since.
Yes a pair of sub drivers would have been the three way choice.
Edits: 01/08/22 01/08/22
I was thinking about those Stellar 700 amps, they seem to come up for sale on the Gon and other sites. A crazy thing happened this morning friend of mine and his wife are selling their house and he's getting rid of his Home Theater setup which is really great, he asked if I would be interested in anything and I know he uses Emotiva amps so I'm going over there shortly to hopefully come home with an amp or two-fingers crossed-. I'll keep you posted.
Update,my friend that's dismantling his HT had 2 Emotiva XPA DR1's he was using for L+R Main speakers,Since I was over there most of day helping him and his wife pack up some other items for their move he gave me the deal of a lifetime...He gave me Both of the amps for $500! Ive never heard them before but he said they sound very good. So I got home and set them up and I could hear immediately that they sounded better than my Proceed,i'm just going to play music through them for the rest of the wknd. This defiantly gives me more help towards my Bi-Amping goals.
yeah the XPA's are 1k watt into 4 ohms so they'll make any Maggie boogie. I had a pair hooked up to my Gunned MMG's and LRS; really opened them up.Just go easy on the RCA connectors in the back (input in) they're known to wiggle loose so I use XLR cables instead -which to me sound better anyway.
Edits: 01/08/22
Yes I've never heard emotive amps on anyones setup except his so I really had no way to judge them until I set them up in my system. Really has a positive affect in all of the usual aspects thats talked about with a system. I just ordered 2 amp stands for them lol.
mind sharing which stands you ordered? Took me a while to find one that'll fit those tanks!
No problem. Salamander Archtype amplifier stand, 16"X23"x3" from amazon. I just needed something quick to get them off of some old shelf's that I'm using now. I'm going to use some rubber isolation footers so if they overhang a little I won't mind.
Thanks for all of the info on bi-amping that I didn't know-Verticle Vs Horizontal-not that I knew much about it anyway. So with vertical I would use a stereo amp for each speaker, one channel for the lows, one for the highs,I like this idea. And yes I'm trying to just get more power for better sound, they sound good up to certain volume depending on the track, than they start to sound somewhat compressed. The speakers themselves are fine as I rebuilt them last summer including new ribbons. At this point I have to decide how far I want to go now that I'm retired, and the Boss is paying more attention to my audio money spent. I really like the Bi-amping with a crossover because I use a pr of subs also,So I would need a Xover with Sub,Low,Highs. Decisions Decisions,Should of played lotto more while working Lol.
A very similar situation to what I had for quite a few years. :-))
So, with a pair of subs, yes you need an XO with "Subs, Lows & Highs" - iow, a 3-way XO. (Sub LP, bass HP, bass LP and mid/ribbon HP.)
Can I suggest a great solution to do this is a miniDSP 4x10HD (with the 96kHz plug-in). Why I suggest this is that, as well as allowing you to roll off the bass panels to match the roll on of the subs ... it allows you to apply delay, to be able to time-align the subs with the bass panels - and even time-align the bass panels with the mids/ribbons. (Given they will all be slightly different distances from your ears.)
Andy
Defiantly a less expensive option than a Marchand Xover,more to think about. If I go this way I will be in touch for sure as I have no idea about how anything like this 4X10 unit works, time to do some research on it I guess. Thanks,are you not bi-amping anymore? or have you moved on from Maggies.
PM me your email address when you're ready to start and we can go from there.
As well as written advice, what I can also do is send you the configured XO file that you could load into your 4x10, just to get you started. :-))
I am still bi-amping (plus subs) but I have recently - after nearly 30 years of Maggies - moved away to some "zero-baffle" spkrs of my own design.
See here:
Andy
Thanks you! I heard some Open Baffle speakers this past summer, and I was so close to buying a pr and selling my Maggies,They sounded great and I could use them with my Mac 240. Never say never lol.
There's no better speaker to bi-amp than 3.6's.The bass/mid crossover frequency is 50/50 for effective power splitting.
The external crossover can be set aside.
The line-level active crossover does not need any fancy EQ or crazy slopes.
The list goes on and on.It's preferable to use identical amps so you can utilize them for left/right duties.
Dave.
Edits: 01/06/22
Power supplies are better used. Each one has to only handle transients on that channel if driven more in any particular music passages. If the bass requires more power each channel has it's own power supply, not shared with other speaker.
Allows for the same sonic signature top to bottom, instead of taking chances on a mis-match (assuming you mean differing amps, otherwise no benefit in this regard).
Per E-Stat, added: better separation as each channel is effectively running mono.
Others may feel horizontal is better in other ways, as one can use a more costly amp for the MRT, cheaper for the bass. I feel there is a sonic signature from top to bottom however, so vertical is my preference.
Thanks Grant! I've been running identical amps in a horizontal configuration. I'll try vertical and see if I can hear a difference.
Regards,
Steve
Hello M&C,did you ever get tottery the Verticle method of Beaming Vs. The Horizontal method? any difference that you can hear? Thanks.
First I'll clean the cable ends and connectors to make sure I'm not just hearing clean vs. corroded connections. The amps take a couple of hours to warm up and I'll want to switch back and forth a couple of times. Pick some music for comparisons, turn off the heat so I don't hear the air coming out of the registers, meditate to clear my head, pour a glass of whisky... ;)
Regards,
Steve
Mmm Whiskey. My Listening Drink.
Don't suppose you named your cat Green Spot?
No, they're Daisy and Jasmine. The wife likes flower names. Now, if I had my way, there would be Jameson, or Tullamore, or Teeling... And of course - Maggie!
Regards,
Steve
Definitely report back! That'd be great to know your impressions of both options...
Yep, same amps allows vertical bi-amping, so power supplies are better used. Also allows for the same sonic signature top to bottom, instead of taking chances on a mis match.
Substantial change doing so...
So that would be a Stereo amp for each speaker,Right? This sounds like an idea I might be able to do.
And a crossover and cables...
Regards,
Steve
right gotcha, thanks.
better separation as each channel is effectively running mono.
when biamping. I highly recommend biamping, and am using a pair of Audio Research D200 amps, 200 watts per channel into 4 ohms.
I also recommend replacing the stock stands and upgrading the internal mid/high crossover, both of which should give improved sound at a lower cost than biamping. Depending on why you are thinking of a change, you might want to consider these first. I found all 3 to give comparable levels of improvement.
Regards,
Steve
Yes,they have MYE stands' did that a few years ago, made a nice difference also I have replaced all of the connectors with cardas connectors on both the speakers and crossovers, another big difference. I really think I need more power, thats why I was thinking about bi-amping at this time, but I'm thinking a new amplifier might be a better choice at the moment.
Which crossovers are you using? Are they the bass/mid+high ones that came with the speakers (XO1?)?
I'm curious as to why you think your system needs more power. Do you feel the amp you have now is straining/distorting at the listening level you like? Would you like it to be louder? Remember, it takes twice the power for a 3 dB gain and 10 times the power to double the sound level. You might find biamping with 2 lower power (and weight...) amps, and a crossover, to be a better solution than one big power amp. Of course, there are many variables at play in that choice.
Regards,
Steve
from between amps and speaker drivers.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
having a first-order HP means that you can use a simple line-level passive HP for the M/T, just a small-value capacitor in series with the power amp input. The value is chosen based on the amp input impedance. I use this plus an old Marchand XM9 for the fourth-order LP. Marchand sells the XM9 circuit boards alone so you could do a home-brew, like I did, for not a large expense. My setup works well; I think it's a worthwhile thing to do.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
I ran my 3.6s for several years with a single amp before getting a First Watt B4 crossover and bi-amping them. I use a Pass Labs x150.5 on the mid-hi and a B&K EX4420 on the bass panels. The results were very good, the Pass labs amp does not have to work as hard and usually stays in class A. The low end is also improved with more definition and depth. The B4 is not a current product, however, you may be able to find a used one.
Loaded questions! I am a strong advocate for biamping but I also realize there are a lot of issues to consider. First question, are you unhappy with your current setup and if so what would you like to improve? Second, how much money do you want to spend?
Then there is the question of apples and oranges. The Pass amp is very good but much more expensive than your Proceed. BTW the proceed is 125 wpc into 8 ohms which IMO is too small for the 3.6. And even the Pass is a lttle underpowered. I would look for 250 wpc amp, and even if you continue on to biamp, it would very suitable for one of the amps. Another issue is "amp matching". Just putting two amps together for biamping is not a great idea --ideally the amps should be the same or at least have the same sonic signature (same manufacturer?).
Finally there is the issue of the XO - analog or DSP.
From my own experience, I found using two identical Class D amps (W4S ST-500s) and a Marchand XM-44 XO for my modified MG-IIIa was extremely satisfying. The electronics cost about $3000 and if you go used it could be considerably less.
"Our head is round in order to allow our thougths to change direction." Francis Picabia
The proceed is 250 into 4 ohms, and the pass 150.8 is 300 into 4 ohms. wouldn't the Pass amp be enough?
What real or perceived problem are you trying to fix? If none, are you
just bored and need to fiddle/diddle your setup to have something to do?
Maybe you need/want a speaker or amp upgrade? Do you need/want more
amplifier power? Maybe you should just spend the money of some new music.
Whether or not you can observe a thing depends upon the theory you use. It is the theory which decides what can be observed. - Albert Einstein
Maybe he just wants to make his sound better ?
Andy
I'm thinking that I need more power for my speakers, so I'm trying to find out if maybe just getting a new amp or maybe this is the time to try out Bi-amping. I tried a digital amp and it kept going into protection on some music's I'm kind of turned off to digital power. If I go with just a new amp I want one that is similar in sound to the Pass amps,i've heard them before and it sounded great, with Maggies. Also I don't have a problem with mono blocks,this is a dedicated room. If just one amp I would like to keep it under$5000.
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