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because there is no stored woofer energy the maggies have fast bass
you guys know of any recording with astoundingly fast bass to show off this strongpoint of the speaker ???
Follow Ups:
give that devil his due!
/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends
Dont give me no slow decay - no no
wow guys thanks for taking the time to post such detailed responses
you are guys are a fountain of information
upright bass on Magnepans are a thing of wonder. I learned this when I had my 1.6's.Most recordings of acoustic bass solos I've heard are always amazing: positioned dead center, seamless integration from top to bottom, finger plucks, fret vibration,etc.
With Maggies (and I assume the majority of other planars) you sense the notes are originating from the 'body' of the instrument itself, not simply being fired at you like traditional box speakers tend to do. And don't get me started on bowing on an upright...Just amazing.
Edits: 11/13/21 11/15/21
just an FYI, uprights don't have frets
The metallic twanging threw me off! : ) good catch
If you want fast decay, Magnepans are not the speakers for you. :)
You want something with a more powerful motor structure, relative to the mass of the transducer.
Dave.
thats why I always dreamed about putting together a system with Ale compression bass drivers
If they used Neodymium magnets, the motor would be stronger and much more spendy !!!
That just means the motor structure is symmetrical in operation. It doesn't mean they don't have energy storage, or related issues.
Dave.
I know I have a meager understanding, but wouldn't a symmetrical motor controlling in 2 directions rather than one give tighter control over the vibrating surface, i.e. mylar for the Maggies. I'd expect the result to be an attack/sustain/decay that more closely matches the recorded sound, and reducing the impact of the stored energy. As already mentioned, stronger magnets could further improve the bidirectional control.
Regards,
Steve
It would, assuming you had more flux density as a result of the extra magnets. The 20.X design is superior in this aspect. No doubt about that.
If you manufactured something that was symmetrical in motor structure, but had half the magnet (on either side) relative to an asymmetrical scheme with the (overall) same magnet, it would be very similar in operation. However, the distortion makeup would be different.
But, in this case you might find, subjectively, that many folks would prefer the asymmetrical layout. :)
Dave.
Are you aware of any speakers that use the asymmetrical magnet arrangement?
Regards,
Steve
Yeah, all Maggies other than the 20.X type. :)
Dave.
I'm afraid I'm not following... :}
"If you manufactured something that was symmetrical in motor structure, but had half the magnet (on either side) relative to an asymmetrical scheme with the (overall) same magnet, it would be very similar in operation."
I interpreted "symmetrical" as meaning magnets on both sides ala the 20.x series.
I can't say I've heard many opinions that the other Maggie's have more pleasing bass than the 20 series. Other than the 30's of course.
Regards,
Steve
My "if you....." was a hypothetical.All of the Magnepan models (other than 20.X series) have an asymmetrical motor structure because the magnets are physically on one side of the voice coils.
Even with that, you could make the case the magnetic field is strong enough to alleviate much of that asymmetry during normal operation.
But it's not 'fully' symmetrical, like the 20.X setup.Regards the subjective comparisons, it's not apples-to-apples because the 20.X speakers are much larger than other models.
Dave.
Edits: 11/13/21
I suggested stronger magnets YEARS ago and was met with crickets.
You could, with such magnets increase the pole piece / driver spacing a little......still gain some sensitivity while lower chances of bottoming out.....
You MUST replace those refrigerator magnets with something of greater flux density.
But ALSO must be careful. VERY strong magnets can be dangerous. Everthing from a pinch event to stuff 'sticking'. Neo matnets are also brittle so you have THAT to look forward to...
between parts, fabrication and training, costs would go up...
Too much is never enough
you had me laughing at the crickets part lol.
Hey PG Audio-Con is coming up in January,it's in Newport Beach I'm thinking of going on Saturday, let me know if you want to head up there with me.
Well, the reason your suggestion was met with crickets should have been obvious. All of those stronger magnets are darn expensive AND they come from the country with the big "C" in its name.
If I were Magnepan, I wouldn't go that direction either.
Dave.
One other minor point?
Magnepan conventional wisdom is More good Watts = Better. I can't argue with that except my needs are more modest and with an A23 Parasound per panel....which is 200x2 I don't ever come close to tapping out my amps.. These amps play as loud or louder than the PSAudio I had years ago with 500x2 4ohm watts. It was a 'D' amp.
But what IF a panel were an honest 3db more sensitive? Or 6db? Required amp power drops and the cost of a system may stay the same....More for the speakers? LESS for the amp. This cuts into running expenses, too. Especially for the Tube guy who may need output tubes replaced.
Let's say my 'new' panels are over 3db more sensitive than my 1.6s? I would need only 1 amp, not that pair I now have. Savings? About 1000$ at retail for the amp. Could an 'improved' 1.6 gone more than 1000$ more than what I paid for 'em?
Too much is never enough
Actually, my suggestion which has never been reacted to by anyone is that
Magnepan establish a 'Custom Shop'....modeled after say.....Colt Firearms......
You could get many Colt firearms rebuilt / detailed AND engraved. All are $$ and ALL are collectible.
My suggestion to Magnepan? Get an EXPERT woodworker / help and proper shop tools. Sell CUSTOM wood framed panels built essentially TO SPEC. A few other things got tossed in, too, but that's the 'nut' of it....
Stronger Magnets are in some ways Hazardous. And China is NOT the only source for 'em......the US, for example has rare earth deposits, too.....
But you would require changes AT Magnepan. Pinch injuries with Uber Powerful magnets are possible. They STICK to one-another like stuck with CrazyGlue. You simply Can't screw that up.
You would need proper tooling to handle and assemble a pole piece.... This would not be a trivial investment and may short-term slow down production.
Too much is never enough
A custom shop? :)
Magnepan is back-logged for months just trying to supply demand for their 'normal' products. I don't really know the inner business workings of the
company, but I suspect a grandiose plan like that would partition the company into insolvency almost immediately. Concentrating on core competency, primarily, should be their objective. IMHO.
Dave.
I get it and understand 'core competency'....
They'd continue making the SAME drivers in the same manner as now.
The object is a Vallue Added reframe build which at first may offer only 2 or 3 woods. It would require ONLY a small shop. Maybe 500sqft to 600sqft. That is? 20x25 or 20x30. You'd need some tooling which can be Leased.
Magnepan works on the 'wear many hats' model, if I know my manufacturing. You may have a dedicated shipping / receiveing 'group' but production must be flexible and willing to work any number of stations. I am 100% certain that opportunities exist to cut costs and increase production without adversly effecting quality or output. I did that kind of thing for a living for 20 years.
In the long run? Quality IS free, just like the book title.
If they are at capacity and any deviation from keeping the boat bailed out results in insolvency? Somebody needs to reevaluate the business model. I'd like to know some things. Like scrap rate? Rework rate? Employee turnover? I'd like to see the quality program data. I'd go into the company and pretend to be an ISO Auditor. I was thru bunches of them over the years and got pretty good at it. I could care less about stuff like the 'organizational chart' which is nearly meaningless. How does stuff REALLY get decided? Are they running 24-7 or 2 shifts or ???
Nothing but opportunity.
Too much is never enough
https://youtu.be/CdvRPprWa7A
From the last RTF live album.
Gsquared
Dipole speakers - planar or cone array - have a different bass interaction with the room as compared to boxes. And, to get the most out of a dipole bass system you need DSP.Linkwitz states that, "the observed audible difference between monopole and dipole for bass below the room's Schroeder frequency is:
Less boom and droning of specific notes with a dipole,
A higher degree of articulation and resolution of complex musical bass lines,
A sense of air, spaciousness, and very natural reproduction of acoustic bass..." (from https://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers.htm )Folks are used to box speakers so to them, that's how bass is supposed to sound. They can't help it.
"Fast bass" is a misnomer, an audio descriptive term whose literal meaning makes no actual sense. Different listeners connect the term with different sonic qualities, so in essence the term is meaningless. In general, though, I think most people are describing a playback system that has less low frequency group delay and to some degree quicker decay on bass transients, when they talk about "fast bass." Dipole and open-baffle bass systems can be optimized to provide both in ways that sealed, ported and horn-loaded systems really can't. An exception is well-designed transmission line loading, which can have very low bass frequency group delay although they do not offer the room interaction benefits that can be gotten from a properly set up dipole system.
=================================
Science doesn't care what you believe.
Edits: 11/13/21 11/13/21 11/13/21
> "Fast bass" is a misnomer, an audio descriptive term whose literal meaning makes no actual sense. Different listeners connect the term with different sonic qualities, so in essence the term is meaningless. In general, though, I think most people are describing a playback system that has less low frequency group delay and to some degree quicker decay on bass transients, when they talk about "fast bass."
Less low frequency group delay means that the bass arrives on time with the higher frequencies, instead of being late. Sounds like the opposite of slow bass to me.
And quicker decay on transients means it goes away faster instead of hanging around too long, i.e. slow.
So fast is a good enough metaphorical description as it's meant in opposition to "slow", and slow means showing up late and leaving late.
I agree 100% with the late Mr Linkwitz about the phenomenon but I now thing there's a good enough definition of "fast bass".
Béla Fleck & The Fleckstones, CD, "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo", track 4, same title.
Patricia Barber "Modern Cool", CD, track 5, "Light My Fire"
Stunning bass with two 8-inch subwoofers in my Maggie 3.6 system, not what you're after but I am not sure if it's possible to get satisfying bass without subs. The subs truly take the music to a different level.
Could never understand the term "fast" or "tight" bass!Natural "acoustic" bass is not "fast or tight" IMO.
Edits: 11/11/21 11/11/21
The ability or inability of the transducer to respond accurately to the input voltage from the amplifier is what is referred to when describing a speaker as 'fast or 'slow'.
Audio voltages have a 'rise time' and fall time'. Rise time is the amount of time it takes for the voltage to increase from zero to its maximum although people working with these measurements usually measure and refer to the 10 to 90% rise or fall time.
Cone woofers have significant mass and take more time (if only milliseconds or fractions of a millisecond more) to respond to the input voltage so the movement of the transducer cannot faithfully follow the input voltage.
Additionally, the inertia of the additional mass causes the cone to be more difficult to stop at the peaks (positive and negative) therefore the 'slowness' is exacerbated at the peaks. Servo speakers are an attempt to ameliorate this effect and why, I believe, they are regarded as a better match to planars. They have better control of change of direction of the transducer and of overshoot.
Because cone speakers have mass and woofers have more mass they are less able to respond instantaneously. If you make them lighter they are usually less stiff and physically deform (15" and 18" Altecs and Klipsch's) from the shape in which they are made. If you make them stiffer to hold their shape better they are usually heavier. If they are heavier you need a stronger motor as in a heavier voice coil and pole piece and stronger magnets although I don't think magnets contribute to a speaker being 'slow'.
To reproduce lower frequencies larger cones are needed. The larger the cone, 8", 10", 12", 15", 18" the more serious the detrimental effects of the mass. Some speaker manufacturers use advanced materials and/or methods to increase stiffness, sometimes without increasing mass but this has it's own problems. Stiffer materials such as metals, tend to ring or have their characteristic voicing, think titanium vs aluminum, vs silk vs beryllium vs paper, carbon fiber or perfectium unobtanium but voicing is a different topic. JBL uses aquaplas on paper cone speaker for damping and rigidity. "Aquaplas is a sound damping elastic used to provide greater bass control and more accurate woofer movement."
Another phenomenon that affects transducer performance is that a it can apply more force to the air when it pushes than when it pulls. When the transducer pushes the air in front of it becomes (however slightly) compressed and more force can be imparted into it. When the transducer pulls, the air becomes less dense and less force can be imparted to it. This includes the mass of the entire column of air through which the sound is conducted from the transducer to your ears. This is why the speed of sound is faster (I knew I could get that word in somehow. :)) through liquids and ever faster through solids than in air, the molecules are closer together.
I'm not sure I can identify the characteristics that result in perceiving planars as 'faster' than cone speakers but I can hear it.
> Cone woofers have significant mass and take more time (if only milliseconds or fractions of a millisecond more) to respond to the input voltage so the movement of the transducer cannot faithfully follow the input voltage.
It's more complicated than this. Traditional electrodynamical speakers also have wire wound dozens to hundreds of times around in the coil vs once or twice in a planar.
That means the force applied, at least in that location, can be much larger and well makes up for the significantly increased mass.
> Another phenomenon that affects transducer performance is that a it can apply more force to the air when it pushes than when it pulls.
atmospheric pressure is plenty to push back, normal audio is well in the highly linear regime. We're not getting supersonic shocks.
Simple mechanical analogies aren't so helpful--it's compressible fluid mechanics described by partial differential equations.
The impedance of the air matters more for a planar with a large area, light membrane and lower local force applied. Being in the linear regime the frequency (spatial and time) model analysis is more appropriate.
I think the psychoacoustic advantages of planars aren't found in simple mechanical ideas.
I guess that's why most cone speakers sound mussy to me - in the bass
I did hear a field coil speaker at T.H.E. IN los angeles that blew my mind tho
If that is "fast", does it mean it is reproduced as 45 Hz or 50 hz?
I agree. While fast is a term frequently associated with bass reproduction, isn't really rise time what is critical for accurate reproduction? That is, no or minimal overhang. Which Maggies and some electrostatics can do.
"The only cats worth anything are the cats who take chances. Sometimes I play things I never heard myself." Thelonious Monk
My thoughts exactly! :-))
But also "fall time", as DrC posted. IE. the driver can stop quickly ... with no overhang.
For these, you need drivers with little inertia.
Andy
I take 'fast bass' as one which stops quickly when it is supposed to.
Good 'rise time' means a good midrange & tweeter integration with the woofer.
well it sure aint " loose and flubby "
and much less likely to be out of phase
No stored woofer energy? :) Think again.
Not only is that physically impossible, but Magnepan's exhibit more stored energy effects than most other speakers.....relatively speaking.
Excite a Magnepan speaker with an impulse, look at the ringing afterward, and you will understand.
Dave.
Not 'NO' stored energy. Just very little....
Too much is never enough
The OP said "no stored woofer energy." :)
But, I disagree that it's "very little." As I suggested earlier.....excite the woofer with an impulse and monitor via oscilloscope and close microphone. If you call that "very little stored energy" then I think you need to re-adjust your reference. :)
The reason these speakers have the nickname "drum-skins" is because they are. :)
Dave.
maggies are no more than what......2% or 3% efficient?
To go from electricity to sound and return you are going to get only a tiny return.
Mylar is Low Stretch. No edge suspension like a conventional woofer. I suspect a conventionaal
Acoustic Suspension speaker stores far more energy....an order of magnitude? = 10x?
Can you assign some number rather than the qualitative 'very little'?
So while I think 'zero storage' is off the table, I'd say 'not much' might be OK.
One other factor? How much Damping Factor do Maggies benefit from? I see many users with
low DF Tube gear. Electrically, I don't know if Maggies benefit from a high DF.....
As for viewing on a scope? What voltage range? How large an input TO the panel? I'd love to
attend and WATCH this tested. Cool idea.
Too much is never enough
Yep, they're designed to ring. That's how they do the acoustic dipole equalization.
No Josh, I'm talking about the energy storage of the transducer unit by itself....irregardless of the baffling configuration and how the dipole cancellation is handled. The ringing would exist in any case.Dave.
Edits: 11/11/21
I'm talking about the transducer's energy storage as well.
The ringing of the resonant sections is used for acoustic equalization.
The drivers are designed to ring as much as possible.
Josh,
I think we're in a chicken-or-the-egg discussion here. I know you know how this works, but your description might be confusing for some inmates, regarding the "ringing."
Do you design the transducer for the inherent equalization the baffle provides? Or the other way around? :)
Dave.
Have you ever noticed that when you tap the resonant sections they play a musical scale?
That, I assume, is to prevent pitch shift. Which raises two other questions.
If the diaphragm tension changes over the years, does that put the speaker out of tune?
And if you play something a bit off key, do the resonant sections pitch shift it back into key like Autotune? :-)
My speakers have the E A D G B E tuning. I guess I will need to attach my guitar tuner and see if they've adopted an alternate tuning.
Dave.
ok stored energy ....... but no boxes resonances and still ultra fastwould like to try a bass ALE compression driver tho
Edits: 11/11/21
It's a misconception that Magnepans have powerful motor structures with high "speed", low resonances, low stored energy, etc, etc. Relative to many conventional speakers, they pale in comparison, in those aspects.
Now, that's not to say they don't bring other assets to the table. Speaker transducers are all about trade-off's.
That said, if you want to feel some lightning fast bass that will literally shake your guts during the experience, there are other speakers (that are not Maggie/planars) that will do it much better.
Dave.
much faster bass than maggies ?I am all ears
( I am not talking about gut jarring - I have heard all manner of K-horn - jbl and altec )
Edits: 11/11/21
Well, "fast" bass is a bit of a misnomer. No bass is fast. It's bass -- the driver moves slowly.
Often, "slow" bass is caused by a mismatch between the woofer and the midrange and tweeter. See the article I've linked to.
Magnepan goes out of their way to extend the HF response of their woofer panels so that they meld in the crossover region.
Another issue is that dipole bass triggers fewer room modes than monopole bass. This means smoother response in real world rooms. You can do the same thing with sealed subs, but you need four of them to do it.
Open-baffle dipole bass systems using conventional drivers.
Quite a few different examples in usage nowadays.My own system uses a variation of the Linkwitz Phoenix design.
You won't find "fast" bass response like this from any Magnepan. :)Dave.
Edits: 11/11/21
So the 30.7FC with the conventional driver bass could potentially have faster bass ?
I would certainly think so.
Dave.
open baffles have their own set of problems
Yeah, Magnepans are open-baffles also. :)
As I said above, all speaker transducers have trade-offs....of one form or another.
I'm speaking from long experience here, as I've had both Magnepans and Linkwitz-style woofer schemes in my listening room.
Dave.
that Linkwitz guy sure was good with the number figuring
it's got everything including dynamics. I have vinyl and CD by Reference Recordings. Try "Subterranean Caves of Kronos" and "Gates of Dafos" but watch the volume.
Not sure about Dafos. Not the tracks one thinks of! Higher tuned percussion is quick, but OP wants fast bass.
I think Mickey and his gang favor a lot of resonance in their low end. It's big bass. But not really fast.
Just listened to Oscar Peterson and Count Basie "...Meet Again" track 3, Home Run.
Put the system up to jazz club levels. Shouldn't hear much except a "gut drop" when that kick hits sometimes.
Remember, at realistic levels, your lungs are passive radiators and the best judge of bass timing.
/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends
I said "maybe" as part of many to consider. When Mickey kicks over the massive batterie, the impulse of it comes first and then the massive waves of very low frequency waves which pulsate enormously. If the impulse of it is weak and you can't hear the waves pulsating in different directions all over the sound field (like standing on a beach with crashing storm waves), that's a weakness.
If you strike a 60" bass drum tuned to 25hz you will get the immediate impulse but the frequency of the resonance is 1/25 sec., which is v. slow.
Cheers
Stanley Clarke - "School days"
You can try: Charly Antolini - Knock Out, Jeton - 100.3304, direct-to-disc from '79; a speaker killer in its heydays, or newer Knock Out 2K, for which is said to be even extremely brutal.
More relaxed, but very good bass: Ray Brown & Laurindo Almeida - Moonlight Serenade, Jeton - 100 3315, direct-to-disc from '81.
I have both of those original LPs, but they exist also in various CD versions.
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