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In Reply to: RE: Maggies and high-end speakers posted by audioNeil on March 19, 2012 at 14:57:30
I really liked the Revel Studios, my only issue was that the images were so small and midget like and they did not image outside the speakers. Other than that, they are simply not big planars and don't meet my preferences, admire them as I may. Nothing like that bass slam and power. They are very dynamic indeed.
I know that maggies in general have a minimum playback level that puts them in the linear range, similar to the Vandersteens in that regard but worse. But that may not be as much of an issue so much if you use your 3.6 with subs and it also appears to be less of an issue when you biamp. With that in place, you can get the dynamics you are looking for.
I recently changed the tonal balance on my modified triamped Tympani IV to mimic the tonal balance of the JMLab Utopias - another speaker with great bass dynamics. I added a rod to brace the top of the bass panels to the wall on top of the large hobbit proportioned feet. With 2kw per channel to drive them, they are cleaner and tighter than the Utopias but lack comparable power below about 25 hz. There is plenty of power there, just not as much. The point I am trying to make is that you can get more of what you want out of maggies while keeping what you liked about them in the first place.
Follow Ups:
Tympani IV bass is improved with rolling off the bass below 25 hz, which
lowers distortion greatly. Power requirements are reduced considerably
and bass is even more defined. My rotary subwoofer takes over below
30 hertz and bass dynamics are just wonderful.
My friend has Apogee Scintillas driven by huge Krell amplifiers and even
with these amps there is significant distortion below 25 hz. When he
rolled the bass below 25 hz the distortion was reduced dramatically.
He also uses two rotary subwoofers below 30 hz and can achieve even
higher levels than Tympani IV's. The Apogee Scintillas edge out
the Tympanis, but have a very low impedance which require amps with
tremendous current capabilities.
Once again my Martin Logan Summits with the Magneplanar Tympani IV
Bass panels and rotary subwoofer give me all the dynamic slam that
I require.
My room is only 17X19/20 so the demands for power are not that bad and I get about as much SPL as my ears can handle and don't hit the distortion limits yet. Since I already made the investment in the power for the bass panels, I would prefer to have them do the <25hz just a tad better than they do now to continue the rising output with lower freq line. I want 20hz to be +1 or 2db above 30 hz rather than -2 or 3 db below.
Well, that was my issue with the big apogees I would have wanted if budget allowed. But they cost 3X what a Tympani +neo8 array costs (at least for a working pair in good condition) so it is outside the budget and not as easy to drive. Similarly, the rotary sub is way more expensive than anything I can afford and I don't like its installation requirements.
I am working on a pair of 10" + 8" dipole subwoofers (closed box not open baffle) using weighted drivers that should be enough to do my room below 30 hz, but if I can do without them I would.
I did want to ask you how loud you can go at about the octave centered on 1 khz before the Summit panels distort. Have you measured?
The Neo8 array was doing 126 db on female vocals with violins in my unfortunate accidental experiment (couldn't listen for a week after that short exposure) it was still fairly clean.
Sound levels approaching the levels that you describe are damaging
to ones ears. Way too loud for me. Listening over over 100 db for
long periods is even too loud for me and the older I get the more
cautious I get. Low bass does not bother me, but I have found that
low distortion, definition, and a system with a huge sound-stage,
great imaging, and the feeling of a huge space is what I like the most.
Getting ones system to sound great at lower levels (transparency) is
what the Martin Logans, Tympanis and rotary do well (a great
dynamic range).
Room acoustics plays an enormous role in achieving this, as well. Dynamic
range is expanded and with the ability to hear down to the quietest levels,
prevents me from listening to damaging levels that many audiophiles seem
to prefer.
My friends system, consisting of Apogee Scintillas, Stages, Hill Plasma
and two rotary subs sounds great at louder levels, but way too loud
for me.
When I was young I owned Klipschorns and played music at those levels
that you decribed, but soon realized that after listening for extended
periods my ears started to ring (Tinnitus).
These are not normal listening levels it is peak measurements and an indicator of headroom. Normal listening levels average out far lower than that, I normally do piano -20 db on the CD at about 85, on large orchestral works I set for 0 db on CD about 115db, chamber music is usually -20db at 80 db spl. With the new FR I do breach the top a little in the deep bass.
I have the same question about the Summit panels.
Seems to me you could add a sealed sub below 30 Hz without ill effect, if you used a high crossover slope so they only played on the very rare fundamental down there (and of course the room tone and subharmonics that seem to improve ambiance -- but I don't think these are going to color the sound further up, since their levels aren't high enough to produce significant harmonic distortion). I don't think group delay will be a problem below 30 Hz, and neither will room modes, as long as you're below the lowest non-trivial mode an omni should be fine.
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