Planar Speaker Asylum

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Planar Speaker Asylum

Cannot work with two sats crossed to one sub at 300Hz

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In Reply to: RE: The baby Maggie-----Best sound of the show!! posted by joeljoel1947 on January 12, 2009 at 12:55:32

Sub-sat combo cannot possibly work if the crossover is set at 300 Hz. Perhaps, if you choose music carefully you can deliver an impressive demo. However, male voices go down to 80 Hz, and there is simply too much important content between 100 Hz and 300 Hz to be left to a sub tucked in the corner of the room. With any opera recording, the soundstage would collapse completely with obvious sub localization.

Sorry, the idea sounds intriguing but it cannot be done. It may work for certain music and for a little while; however, I suspect that the compromise will be unacceptable for the majority of listeners in the long run. Nothing personal, it's just the laws of physics.

Follow Ups:

It worked with two sats crossed to two woofers at 300Hz - joeljoel1947 08:47:41 01/13/09 (3)
Believe me, I thought the same thing as you did when I saw the setup and learned the facts afterwards. As a DIY loudspeaker designer, rule #256 is that you CANNOT cross to a sub above 100Hz (preferrably 80Hz) due to localization. I think I know why they were able to pull it off.....

The integration was seemless and that was using demo material which had lowish solo voices being used (hear Amazing Grace done well lately?) and also male speaking voice (during the drum solo, the drummer begins speaking and asking questions to the engineer recording him). Let me tell you, that drummers voice came from way back in the stage, placed perfectly behind the drum kit. Also, the female vocalists voice in "Amazing Grace" was as full bodied as I heard as ANYTHING at the show. It sounded like she was THERE. This is in sharp contrast to the thin, bright, and lean sound that most loudspeaker manufacturers get at CES with its poor conditions.

I think the thing helping the demo was their choice to use 2 of the woofer bins, in a stereo setup right next to the sats. This obviously "fixed" the issue of having possible localization that may have happened with just 1 of their woofers off to the corner. Using one, would most likely have caused vocals to be pulled that way.

The second thing helping was their use of "planar magnetic" woofers as opposed to traditional types. I have always sort of rolled my eyes when Magnepan gets on their soapbox and proclaims, "no sub in the world can integrate well with our speakers". Well, Wendell got on that same soapbox during the demo, and again, I rolled my eyes. He spoke of how they tried several dynamic woofers, even $2k each types with the mini-mags, and STILL were not happy with the results and integration. You see, I have had tremendous success mating Maggies to traditional dynamic subs in my lifetime, so I have always sort of scoffed this whole thing off. Well, I was wrong. The overall sound was like one large panel, not 4 seperate sources. I really think they ARE on to something then in their use of the "planar magnetic" woofers as the integration from top to bottom was PERFECT. So, I don't know, maybe somehow using "planar magnetic" woofers helps to minimize the effect of localization that we have all come to expect with a setup like this crossed a 3 times higher a frequency then what we know to be "correct".

I read reviewer Alan Taffel's mini-review linked above and he states the same thing I heard:
"I must say that while I was truly surprised at the form factor of the Mini-Maggie, I was dumbfounded to learn that I had been listening to anything other than a single, integrated speaker. Magnepan ensured the seamless blend between these (now two) mystery speakers by making them both ribbon drivers. They had tried mating the new sats with cone woofers, with the unsurprising result that the dynamic drivers simply could not keep up with the ribbons. So the company figured out how to make a ribbon woofer that didn�t tower over one�s head. The common technology and gentle driver rolloff slopes ensured the uncannily natural blend I heard."

So I guess to say it "Cannot Work" would be a bit short-minded. It DID work, too bad you weren't there to witness it!!!

Regards,
Joel
- Two subs make a huge difference relative to one - sdv5 10:27:21 01/13/09 (2)
  Sorry for the confusion. I thought the set-up was based on one sub with two sats. In your initial write-up, you were actually very specific about that:
  
  "So, you WILL NEED to get one "woofer" for every 2 baby maggies you get (there are 2 woofers inside each $500 woofer cabinet). Your amp connects to the woofer bin and the woofer bin then goes through a xover and eventually connects to the sats (so the sats get the bass filtered out). Anyhow, the bass sounded GREAT! No boom, no smear, and extremely well integrated with the sats."
  
  My position is that this set-up (one sub and two sats) cannot possibly work. If you have dual subs (one per channel), then the situation is completely different as each channel is now capable of handling the full frequency spectrum. You can then fine tune the sub-sat position per channel, and get really good integration with no soundstage collapse or sub localization.
  
  Therefore, two subs and two sats sounds very promising indeed, and I am glad that they used that set-up for the show demo. One sub with two sats would most likely provide for poor sound with a lot of music.
  
  The bigger question is how Magnepan would market a system like this. If you wanted an HT set-up based on this approach, then you would need another sub-sat combo for the center channel. With six separate physical enclosures arranged around the display, the room would get busy with speakers and cables. Not exactly the simple solution that most people are looking for. And Magnepan must go to market with their HT hat on because that's where the money is.
  
  When can Magnepan bring these speakers to market? There was talk about this summer; however, Magnepan's track record in situations like these has been lackluster. Consider the Maggie sub. How long has Magnepan been toying with the concept and showing pictures and prototypes at shows? What happened to CCR, the long awaited center channel with true ribbon driver? Perhaps, given the overwhelmingly positive response from the CES 2009 show, Magnepan may decide to go to market very quickly, and release (finally!) the sub with Mini Maggies this summer. If so, I suspect the price for two subs and two sats would be at least $2k.
  
  If Mini Maggie ever sees the light of day, there will also be an opportunity for Mye Sound to design new stands that can accommodate the sub-sat combination.
  - Yep, not the best wording on my part. - joeljoel1947 11:07:41 01/13/09 (1)
    Sorry for the confusion too. When I said "woofers" it was plural but I should of said, "Two of the woofers in a stereo arrangement". And when I said you "WILL NEED to get one "woofer" for every 2 baby maggies you get" well, that is still true but not OPTIMUM like the demo they set up. You COULD plunk just one of the woofers in the corner (it has two channels of woofer in each one) and both sats will run off of it filtered at 300Hz, HOWEVER, as you correctly point out that would not be a good thing @ 300Hz. Ideally, you need two of those woofers.
    
    Keep in mind though, the "woofers" are totally PASSIVE. There is no amp inside them. So "fine-tuning" will be somewhat limited there. Plus you are running a lot more wires around the room, especially in a HT environment---you are spot on there. For a 7.1 rig, you would need to buy 4 of the "woofers" so that each channel of mini-maggie has something to work off of. Then, for the HT crowd, what do you do below 40Hz where the woofers roll off? If you're not a bass-head, I guess thats OK, but for movies a bit deeper would be nice as "IMPACT" is more in need for movies IMHO. Perhaps get a dynamic sub is an answer and cross it as low as it can go at a high filter rate like 24/dB octave and run that as your .1
    
    I am actually shocked to see the summer mentioned as a release date. That was NOT the vibe I was getting in the demos from Wendell. He said they more or less threw these things together and packed them in their luggage to see what the masses thought! Listening "between the lines" to him, I was thinking they would debut for sale at CES 2010! He told us the woofers are available for sale right now, at least thats what I thought he said.....
    
    Regards,
    Joel
    - Woofers for sale - EmailTim 13:08:16 01/13/09 (0)
      I thought Magnepan already made these woofer units for some hotel project where they included motorized actuators for the MC1's. If so, they have been out for a while, but maybe not publicly available through the normal dealer networks.
      I wonder if this woofer would benefit the CC3 on the center channel???
      
      Edits: 01/13/09
I'm glad to see that... - wazoo 04:36:09 01/13/09 (0)
I'm not the only one concerned about this. I agree that there is simply too much localizable sound below 300Hz for there not to be an audible disconnect between a sub at a room boundary and a pair of satellites operating with such a crossover frequency.

"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ

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