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As in finally took some pictures.
My priorities for this project were to stiffen the frames, but try to keep the dimensions as close to the same size as the stock MMGs as possible, both to lessen the aesthetic impact in the room, and to minimize driver edge diffraction with too-wide frames. I used a single brace mainly to minimize apparent size-I like that 'monolith' look of the maggies, so I was trying to maintain that as much as possible.
Materials used were rock-hard maple, maple veneer, black walnut, scrap plywood, MDF for the grills, various fasteners and/or etc. Grill cloth and speaker cable posts are from Parts Express. The new frames can be completely disassembled via socket-head bolts and threaded inserts.
The grills can be removed for real listening, and I made some stands to turn them into diffusers-they actually work surprisingly well, and it's fun to move them around to different positions to hear the effect.
Driver panels were through-screwed at about 4 1/2" intervals into rabbets routed into the frames. It's tough to make the bare mylar look even half-ass decent, but I ended up covering the perimeters in wide, black plastic tape-that helped hide the crappy paint and the edge of the mylar hanging past the metal. The walnut 'things' hiding the wire terminals seem a little out of scale-I may try something else.
Rear shot shows base containing xover, and diagonal brace. I painted the pole pieces satin black-worked like a champ, no paint through the tiny holes onto the mylar. Though frankly, from all the black overspray that the maggie factory allows on the front mylar, that may not be much of an issue.
Interior of the base shows xover location. I know, wire nuts, but I'm still screwing around with the xover. Wire is Kimber 5/9s copper, teflon, 19ga. The thought was to weight the bases with lead in the compartments on either side of the xover. I'll experiment with that-the speakers are pretty damn heavy as it is, and since when did lead become a precious metal? Four bucks a pound for lead shot-wow!.
I'll need to disassemble them one more time for a finish-can't decide between a water-base satin poly to keep the true wood color, or my usual Ben Matte/Satin Oil Poly 50/50 combo rubbed on with 0000 steel wool and then wax.
Thanks to everyone on the PA who offered help, but in particular Dawnrazor and RodH who were the first guys to get me started on modding the MMGs. Thanks everyone....and if anyone has a question feel free to ask.
vaya con dios
"Dammit..."
Follow Ups:
A couple of questions:The photos suggest that the radiating panel is set back approximately 3/4" from the frame's rear edge. Is the panel front set back at all or flush with the frame front? And do you get any noticeable indication that the panel rear's setback introduces diffraction or "tunnel" issues for the rear wave?
If you've listened both with the center strut in place and removed, do you notice any difference in soundstaging, frequency balance, or other performance characteristic that might be attributed to strut interference with the rear wave?
Looks like you put a lot of man-hours and care into the project.
Thanks.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
experience with maggies, and they've been interesting and thoughtful.
Lets see-is the radiating panel 'set back'? Yes, but only about 3/16". My thought process was to set it back far enough to keep the screw heads from protruding past the frames, and possibly interfering with the grills. In reality, the nature of the grill 'guides' holds the grills proud of the maple frames just about the same amount, so I could have just flushed the drivers-ah well. Still, I don't think being recessed that small amount hampers the sonics much, if at all. Though now that you've brought it up I'll probably put a round-over on that square edge before I finish them. Can't hurt. (-:
I don't notice any 'tunnel' issues with the back wave, but that's tough to correlate in a scientific way since a) there's so much about the sound that changes once you've installed the drivers in modified frames like this that it's very difficult (at least for me) to process what aspect of the new frames is causing what changes to the sound. And b)unless someone has the time and desire to produce several prototypes of various designs, you sets your goals, designs your design, and jumps in head first. More about this below, but first...
I hear no difference sonically with the brace absent or in place. As I said, if I were do it again, I might base my decision on 'brace or no' on aesthetic concerns, not sonic. But I'm still nervous about providing as stiff a surface as possible for the driver to reside-I want the mylar to vibrate as 'accurately' as possible within a stiff frame, so the brace provides a last bit of sonic-peace-of-mind. Interestingly, the speakers look at least as good to me with the brace as without.
Saying that about the brace, and with reference to the rear pole piece 'set back', since the dipole wave is by nature reflective, having well-tuned front and side walls, like yours, may very well show sonic anomalies that I just can't hear. My listening room is also my living room, so trade offs relative to the ultimate livability of the space have to be made. I think the 'irregular' front wall surface (records, books, open shelves ) helps, the coffered ceiling helps, the fireplace hurts (but I'm not going to not have a fireplace because my stereo will sound better).
In the end, the way I listen to changes I've made to the room or the equipment is to, for the first couple of weeks at least, not focus on the 'audiophile' stuff, but to ask myself one question: has this change heightened or decreased my enjoyment of the music coming out of my speakers? It's only then, when I've given the change a thumbs up or a thumbs down, will I try to zero in on what is causing the joy or the pain. In the case of these mods, it's a big thumbs up.
"Dammit..."
I knew I'd be found out sooner or later. But we'll let the 'elsewhere' pass, won't we? :-)
The 3/16" panel-front setback corresponds roughly to that on my stock 1.6's. The comparable rear dimension is about 5/16". I thought that once I get around to reframing my 1.6's I'd maintain the stock frame alignment, rounding the inner edges front and rear, bolting the panel to the frame, and, as you know, eliminating the side rails. Since I'll be going strutless, however (and with a different base design), I'm interested in the improvement in rigidity that might be imparted by a thicker frame. Hence the questions and the interest in whatever tradeoffs that might involve. Something I need to think about some more.
I suspect that your room (great photos) is "revealing" enough to let you hear anomalies if they're there, especially if the modded speakers had "closed down" the presentation in any way. From your comments, that doesn't appear to be the case, so congratulations.
Thanks for the feedback, and here's to continued good listening. Oh, and great kerf work on the rounded base.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
Shhhh. Mum's the word...
I'd like hearing about your ideas for your custom frames. I think we're on the same path. Feel free to e-mail.
vaya con dios
"Dammit..."
.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
Great job!
Sure makes my stock 12's look like ugly, one legged step children! Since I have no woodworking shop, and even worse, no talent, looks like I'm stuck. I'm thinkin' you could have a nice cottage industry business, do these for folks like me.
I have a question. Since you have used 2x material for your frames, and they are much stiffer than frames constructed of 1x lumber, have you tried them with no rear strut installed to see what if any improvement the strut now provides with the much more substantial frame construction? I would be curious to know if thicker frames would allow the elimination of the strut all together with minimal sound degradation.
-Joe
They're not that big !
Actually, I did listen to them for awhile without the brace, in their preliminary phase. But I ultimately decided to add the brace simply to be sure that I was transferring all the energy into vibrating the mylar, and not the frames.
Was there a sonic difference before and after? Maybe, but pretty small if there at alll. All the other changes provided a much more dramatic effect-even the grill removal had more impact. It would be 60% leaning towards putting it in if there were a do-over, but I don't mind how it looks with it in place.
"Dammit..."
It made no noticeable difference in my case, but my (3/4" thick) face frames are attached to their bases by ten screws (five per side) along a little over a foot of material (2" angle aluminum). Even so, with his base design and the way he implemented the strut, it all just looks so damn cool! Dare I say it? I've never seen Maggie look so sexy!!!
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
.
"Dammit..."
.........both for the great looking end product and, most importantly, for improving the sound YOU hear. It's nice to know that you are happy even though you are still playing with your crossover - in other words not settling just yet when other possibilities might exist.
I also agree with Dr. Jazz that the "natural" look is very appealing.
I'm looking forward to seeing more pictures after you have chosen and applied that last finishing touch.
.
Sixty one post's about modded MMG's and no fights have broken out. I could get used to this.
That's because Mr. Gunn hasn't weighed in yet. :)
A real nice effort by Powermatic. I like the implementation quite a bit.
Dave.
I couldn't agree more.....
I think he gets attacked more than he attacks.
Like you, I read Davey's post as being provocative. I'm a little surprised things didn't get ugly, or at least uglier than this. There is no reason to start throwing names around and casting blame for what could be happening. Likewise, this (the one you're presently reading) post shouldn't be in this thread.Please, let's just lay down our slings and arrows. Maybe, just maybe, we could get along better if we stopped poking at each other with these verbal sticks.
BTW Ricky's post was not a provocation (no finger was pointed at anyone) - he simply exclaimed his delight over the fact that no mud had yet been slung. The response was to start slinging mud. That's irony.
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
Short memory? You might recall a few weeks back when drkielbasa posted his project that the thread was well receieved and prompted some good responses for a couple of days.....until PG arrived and made accusations about stealing work, etc, etc. The thread quickly got heated and was deleted. If the mere mention of PG causes...provocation...from his followers then I don't know what to say. My goodness. A double standard is not acceptable...IMHO.
Dave.
Just keep trying to bring him out. No luck so far :^)
It does seem to be the purpose of three of your posts this time, doesn't it?
Travis
Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else.
That got under my skin, and I tried to appeal to reason with an explanation as to how it should be unexpected that another woodworker would come up with such a 'similar' design. My only point is that there is no point in mentioning such things - fanning the flames as it were. Furthermore, this thread shouldn't be a venue for venting these ideas. That's all I have to say about this. We need to let it go.
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
You may be correct, but the only thing that really matters is who makes the first attack.
As noted by Rickey this thread is long and growing longer and there are civil comments exclusively. The only thing that seems to be missing is the beloved Mr. Gunn. Coincidence?
Cheers,
Dave.
You are so right sir....
.
I love the minimal wood and curved look.
IMO I like the natural wood color and it goes well in your room.
Enjoy !
more speaker and less wood, I love the curves and design.
Great job with the removeable grills, I have never liked the sock idea.
AB.
Well, basically I've just been floored by, after all the work, how good these sound . In basic terms, everything that was good about the MMGs and maggies in general has been made more-so, with, as far as I can hear, no detrimental byproduct. Some particulars that I'm sure will sound familiar to owners of any type of Magnepans with any modification:*Much less 'smearing' of notes all the way up and down the frequency range
*Attack, sustain, and decay of individual notes is rendered much more realistically.
*Highs are less fatiguing-believe it or not, even RBCDs, that I usually shun in favor of vinyl, are now very, very listenable. Last night I listened to Garland Jeffreys 'Don't Call Me Buckwheat', Kieran Kane 'Dead Reckoning' and Tony Rice 'Cold On the Shoulder'- one right after another! Such a feat would have been an ear-bleeder for me pre-mods.
*Mids are more cohesive, and come out of a blacker bacground. They seem more 'of a piece' with the rest of the frequency spectrum.
*Lows are night and day different. Bass lines are taught and delineated. Kicks and toms have a much greater impact, with much more of a sense of being there. Snares have a greater 'snap'. Listening to Art Blakey 'The Big Beat' on the BN 45rpm reissue is, if not like being in a club, certainly close enough to allow you to sense being there. There's not 'more bass' per se, but what's there has more drive, pop, and relevance to the music.
*Still and all, and even with the more articulate sound, these aren't 'detail' monsters at the expense of musicality. If anything they seem to be more musical, with better pace and timing, because of the new sonic cohesiveness.
*Soundstage isn't something I like to zero in on when evaluating equipment or changes, but I think it's influenced by the accuracy of the musical presentation, so it's worth a mention. In this case, it's as you'd expect with the above improvements-more focused, more of a sense of realism, more fun.
All of the above is undoubtedly due to improving the standard weaknesses in the lower-end Magnepans that many before me have done. Stiffer (in my case 1 1/2" [glued 3/4"] maple) frames, diagonal bracing to add further stiffness ('grantv' the instigator), eliminating the horrendous 'bent-staple' system of driver panel attachment by locking the panels securely to the frames-I use screws, but believe 'andyr' was the first to realize the importance of this. Crossover changes are huge of course ('Taz' was first, right? Whatever happened to him?) Mine are the first-gen mmg with the 2.2mH inductor, set up for bi-wire, but I'm still screwing with that. BTW, I think Gen 1 Sonicaps are a dead bargain in The World of Caps.
The detachable grill adds more subtle, but still useful, sonic benefits. It's the one time I'll allow myself to say 'a veil was lifted', since it's literally true. The same reasons that no audiophile anywhere listens to any type of speaker with the grills in place hold true for the Magnepans, plus there's the added potential for room tweakage. For instance....
This is how I've been configuring the system lately for "serious" listening. The speakers are about 44 inches from the front wall, toed in about 4 inches, center of speaker to center of speaker 77", 86" from centerline to my head, and the speakers 'lasered' to meet about 2 feet behind my head. The grills in front of the fireplace eliminate the reflection off of the glass. Sounds absolutely killer.
And, I guess that's the bottom line-they sound absolutely killer. Are they the best out there? No, of course not. Are they worth the (mainly) time, and money, that I've put into them? Yep, both musically, and from the fun of building them.
Thanks for all the
complementscompliments, much appreciated.
"Dammit..."
Nylon adds harshness. Try instead to use cotton cord to secure the crossover components.
I'll try it on the next cap go-round-I tried to build this stuff with ease-of-modification in mind.
I've followed your posts with a lot of interest, especially those involving RFI. Looking at my setup, with particular concern towards IC length from amp to preamp, and from phono stage to preamp, I'd appreciate any suggestions you have concerning cabling. Knowing how maggies can be RF antennas, and the length of the cable runs, I'm concerned about possible 'issues'. I'm also interested in your thoughts about AC outlet implementation for the various components. Thanks-you can contact me via my e-mail if you'd like.
Note-the stuff is sitting where it's going to sit. Not the best, I know, but 'The Stereo', like 'Life', is ultimately a 'Compromise'.
"Dammit..."
:)
Crossover changes are huge of course ('Taz' was first, right? Whatever happened to him?) Mine are the first-gen mmg with the 2.2mH inductor, set up for bi-wire, but I'm still screwing with that. BTW, I think Gen 1 Sonicaps are a dead bargain in The World of Caps.
Taz last I heard has moved on from Maggies but wouldn't tell me to what speakers. I also think he got tired of defending his ideas from those who never tried them. Anyhow, he was dead on IME when he talked about his capless crossover mod, and the best cap being one designed out of the circuit. If you really want to see what the highend can sound like, do the capless mod, exactly like the diagram with the .75 mh inductor. Well if you like a very clear detailed soudn that is only bright if the recording is ie. neutral.
BUT, if you can swing it, you would be better off going active.....
I remember Tas, thought not the capless xover mod...is it in the MUG links (I haven't seen it)?
Appreciated,
Jon
-I rarely review/preview my posts so if I've misprinted something, my bad-
Hey Jon,
Yeah, his crossover mods are in the archives. Here is the one I did
People think I am nuts for my thin wire and sideways set up, that guy had a capless crossover, triamped his system with 7w SETS and used an open baffle sub of 3 18 inch drivers.....I miss him.
Dawn,
I'm likely going active w/ either my 3.6's or my 1.6's (or both) when $ permits. I may try a capless design for my 1.6's just to see/hear how it sounds (when I can get the correct values...and $ ;)
May have to chime in w/ Andy for assistance on that.
Several members have left this forum over the years that, even though I usually only read their posts, I surely miss having around.
Regards,
Jon
-I rarely review/preview my posts so if I've misprinted something, my bad-
:)
I don't think it's the "cap-less" aspect of that crossover that determines the sound but rather the gross change in the transfer function. The same (curves) result could be achieved with a resistor-less, cap-less, and inductor-less version with two power amps and line-level crossover.
Cheers,
Dave.
Hey Davey,
YOu may be right, but don't the same value caps produce the same transfer function??? Yet most modders claim that all caps sound different. All I know is that the capless one as it is in that diagram is super clean and revealing but not harsh or bright unless it is in the recording. Much better than the stock. If you read Tazs mods, he did alot of them and I believe him when he says the capless one is better than those that have caps...and that he ended up biamping with an active line level crossover because it was superior to passive high level ones.
YOu don't have to sell me on active or passive line level biamping. Once I get my new amp i'll have an active setup and nothing inline to muck up the sound. Just a source and just an Amp and no additional connections or cables.
d
I wish it could fit in there, but Pass be too, too big! Nice idea tho.
"Dammit..."
.
m
on the front of the speakers to the posts on the rear-wire seems like the best alternative.
"Dammit..."
.
Plan on using dissipation devices beneath the speakers (speaker platforms as well)? I have to agree w/ the other poster that commented about getting that Pass off the floor...good platform and dissipation devices can take your system up more notches than you may think!
Although I'm not thrilled w/ the bases having the xovers in them (micro rattles no matter how much you damp them) I really dig the look, the grills being a bonus as I'm doing something similar w/ my 1.6's as $ permits. Similar meaning the grills only ;)
Please post your opinions after you've had a few good listening sessions and gotten the xover worked out.
Regards,
Jon
-I rarely review/preview my posts so if I've misprinted something, my bad-
.
Yep, I've got a maple 'cuttingboard' stand glued up, just need to detail it and get some finish on it. I'm using these cork/neoprene 'feet' under my turntable maple block, I'm going to try them on the amp stand also. They're just like the Mapleshade product, just cheaper.
"Dammit..."
- http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/productIndex.shtml?operator=keywordSearch&search_type=keyword&QueryString=cork+pad&submit.x=17&submit.y=11 (Open in New Window)
Right on.
I'm open to trying anything out that's priced well so I'll check 'em out.
What are you using between the amp and the platforms? I ask only because the results can go from ok to WOAH!!!!
Curious to the dimensions you chose w/ the wood and the + & -'s to your ears...feel free to e-mail me as I'm becoming more open with my design and willing to share most all my info.
Regards,
Jon
-I rarely review/preview my posts so if I've misprinted something, my bad-
SORRY- I meant picture 2
TIA chas m
In picture (3) 3 connection posts visible.
Are they bi-wireable?
BTW--THEY ARE STUNNING,GREAT JOB.
There are really 4 posts-one's hidden by the brace in the photo-for bi-wire.
Oh, and thanks!
"Dammit..."
I LOVE the look of those!! Very, very impressive. Great work.
Cheers,
Craig.
Looks like good work, congrats. Nice room also, like the colors.
Thanks Grant, appreciated.
"Dammit..."
Excellent workmanship! There's a lot to take in, but it looks like you have definitely created an original.
I haven't read the rest of the thread below yet, but I'm sure I'll have questions later.
Congrats on a job well done!
Rod
Thanks Rod-you were one of the Driving Influences.
"Dammit..."
Hello,
Fantastic job, i do like the new look , one suggestion, i would suggest heavy gauge wires in your x-over ribbons and planer mags tend to be very , very sensitive to DCR......
Lots to try, especially x-over-wise. Sometimes too much to try, know what I mean?
But thank you, appreciate it.
"Dammit..."
A,
one suggestion, i would suggest heavy gauge wires in your x-over ribbons and planer mags tend to be very , very sensitive to DCR......
That certainly hasn't been my experience. Heavy gauge just mucks things up. Maybe some people like that, I prefer resolution.
But I do agree that if he hasn't tried it, he should.
NT
Well done Good lookers.
Power,
Those are the coolest looking Maggies I have seen. That stand is a piece of art. I love the thinness of the "wood border". And the grill is just an awesome idea (see PG I TOLD you it could be done). It really makes it look like a highend speaker. Having one hidden strut is just genius from an aesthetic standpoint. I kind of like it the way it is or at least that color.
Is there a tilt??? Is it like the stock speaker stand, or is there less of an angle??
The "triangle" on the front. Is that there to hide the wires?? Also how do the wires attach to the top plate for the base??? Can you take a pict of that?
I would be remiss tough if I didn't point out one thing. Vibration. From the picts, it looks like the crossovers components are just sitting on the wood?? If so, try putting them on a bed of Reptisand. YOu don't have to cover them completely but give it a try. I think you will be shocked at the increase in resolution you can get.
Same thing with the Pass. It seems to be sitting on the floor. I had mine full of Dynamat and thought that was enough. I then put it on a little sand box and was amazed at how that tightened up the midrange. Give it a try if it is just on the floor. Even with those big rubber feet, vibration can muck things up.
Nice looking system!!!!
Thanks to everyone on the PA who offered help, but in particular Dawnrazor and RodH who were the first guys to get me started on modding the MMGs
Boy am I glad I could help, but really, I just followed Taz's diagrams and posted the results. What you have done is in a different league much like PGs efforts.
I was planning on building my own stand for wall mounting my MMGs and while it would have some features that havent been seen in any of the frame mods here, I really like the looks of yours. Mine would not look as good. I still kind of want to explore my idea, and your effort has given me some ideas. Anyhow, in case I get lazy, would you entertain the idea of building frames for those of us who want them?
Thanks DR-
tilt/ They're square to the floor right now (vertical, no tilt) which is generally how I like them. But I think I'll end up putting spikes on the bottom for adjustability.
triangle/ Yeah, hides that connecting terminal, but I'm thinking it looks too bulky, so I might change it
vibrato/ Ya know, that's actually a piece of a mouse pad glued to a piece of 1/4" ply, and socket-head machine screwed to the base of the stand. I'll probably try the sand idea-though I know of at least one person who hated it (-:
amp/ I'm on top of it bro-got a maple 'breadboard' stand cookin' in the oven. Going to use these cork/neoprene feet, like under my turntable.
Thanks for all now and in the past.
"Dammit..."
- http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/productIndex.shtml?operator=keywordSearch&search_type=keyword&QueryString=cork+pad&submit.x=17&submit.y=11 (Open in New Window)
try to respond to questions and give listening impressions when I get home.
"Dammit..."
You mean you haven't given them a good listen yet? I guess I can undestand. If I'd created somethn that georgeous, I'd be stuck, just staring at them for a good long while. As soon as you can, do let us know how they sound.
Just a quick question, are you using a MMG spec x-over or the MG12 version? I have used both and much prefer the MMG's sound with a MG12 x-over.
Consider ordinary sand or kitty liter for damping the bases. As you say, you've got the weight, so base fill would be more for damping maybe?
Are you using any type of feet or spikes under your bases?
Boy, the ideas you guys give me...
Overall, very, very classy looking work.
I've listened to them good and plenty, and I'm lovin' every minute of it Jerry, lovin' every minute of it! See post above.
Ya know, the MG12 xover is going to be my next change. I think what I'll do is keep my inductor (2.2mH) but add additional caps to mimic the 12's crossover-if I like it, I'll go ahead and buy the 2.8mH called for.
Thanks for the post.
"Dammit..."
"I've listened to them good and plenty, and I'm lovin' every minute of it."
Glad to hear it and waiting for the report ;^) .
While I still prefer pole piece front and series type (currently in use) x-over, I love the look of your frames. Whenever I get a chance to do my frames, I'll probably incorporate elements of both your design and the Magnestand design.
I added a post above detailing my listening experience ("sound").
It would be great to hear the positive attributes for 'pole-piece-forward' from a 'third party', as it were, since I still, after experimentation, don't...get it. We can discuss on PA, or perhaps better privately. Feel free to contact me via my e-mail.
Thanks....
"Dammit..."
Hey Power,
I might qualify as a 3rd party. I was listening to the pole piece forward before PG made his splash...I just didn't know it!!!
Here is the first post i made on it and was doing that way before the post: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/messages/6/69283.html
But I was focused on the sideways setup...it sounded and still does sound great. When I originally did it, I just turned the speakers around and since my wires were short, I ended up with the backs facing each other...which meant that I was listening to the pole pieces!!! While I was smart enough to adjust my absolute polarity, I must say that I attributed the improved sound solely to the sideways setup. Now I think that the improved sound has as much to do with listening to the pole pieces.
Let me explain. With the mylar in the front, it sounds more like hifi: Very precise imaging (I know, you don't listen to that, but I am an imaging freak!). But in real life, instruments don't image like that. You can clearly pick them out, but it is more like an audible soup with the instruments swimming in the same broth....not seperated with dead space between them. With the pole pieces front, it just sounds more real, even though, some resolution is lost. WIth the capless crossover, there is plenty of resolution to spare.
If you try it, just remember to reverse your absolute polarity...not that maggies are sensitive to that, but at least it will be a fair comparison.
certainly the best synopsis of 'pole-forward-why we do it!' that I've heard so far. I'll try again and see if I hear what you're hearing, but it's not come through in my other tests. Still, hope springs eternal...
"Dammit..."
When I first read about the pole piece forward orientation, I posted a smart-assed comment about designing a new speaker grille which was mostly solid material with little holes drilled through it - like anyone would want such a grille. The idea seemed ludicrous, but when I learned that Magnepan originally had oriented drivers like that, I figured I'd give it a try - wouldn't cost anything but a little time.
To say I was shocked at the result would be an understatement. What I found was a slightly gentler presentation with a widened sweet spot (less beaming). It was a subtle change - not what I was expecting. I kept them that way for a week and then spun them back around before taking the panels out of their MDF frames for good. Putting them back was a slap in the face - seemed strange since the opposite reversal made such a subtle difference.
I don't know if it makes any difference, but it bears mentioning that mine were/are elevated 14" (I know, but it was necessary) and almost dead vertical (one degree of rearward tilt).
When I awoke this morning, the first thing I wanted to do was have a look at your frames again - man, those are some awesome looking speakers!
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
My experience mirrors wazoo's. What made me give the idea a try was that whenever I stepped behind my MMG's, for something or other, in their original orientation, they struck me as very good sounding.
I forgot to add that the back wave is probably more important on Maggies than the front wave, and this set up gets the best back wave.
But, I could see how some would like it more listening to the front. One guy I know who had Martin Logans liked his sound bright and edgy...he definitely wouldn't like the pole piece first.
SO don't sweat it if you have a different result.
That is amazing. Just bloody fantastic. Incredible design and work there.
HOW DO THEY SOUND?!?!?
PS: When I'm pissing and moaning about White Bear Lake making MG12's and 1.6's for TEN YEARS this is the kind of thing I want them to do - Something totally new. Ok, everybody pile on now.
Thanks man, appreciate it. Glad you like 'em.
See post above for sound.
"Dammit..."
This is an example of something Magnepan canNOT do - period. This kind of craftsmanship takes a temendous investment of time and work, not to mention the skill of a serious woodworker. It's like looking at at a Rolls Royce and asking why GM doesn't build cars like that. The number of craftsmen, tools and thus space, not to mention the time required to produce these speakers on a large scale would drive them so far into the level of esoterica that few could afford them. If they chose to abandon the masses and built them on a small scale, the same thing would happen to the cost and you might spend the next 10 years on a waiting list. I have zero criticism to direct at Magnepan for their manufacturing philosophy; in fact, I'm eternally grateful.
I do, however, understand your sentiment.
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
Agreed. When the “mod” approaches the level of PM’s or PG’s are they even a Magnepan speaker anymore? Yes, they use a Magnepan driver but that’s all. Beyond that these designs take the driver to a whole new league. Many of the very esoteric, reference, kilo buck designs don’t use proprietary drivers. The execution is in the cabinet design, materials, and construction and the crossover design, component selection and layout. Drivers from Vifa, Scanspeak, Peerless or the likes are selected and used much the same way these “mods” are using Magnepan drivers. Of course I know that Magnepan isn’t in the driver business, but none the less the principle here is the same. If Magnepan used this approach we would be paying Magico or Kharma prices for our speakers. Instead IMHO, we have the option for the best of both worlds for a lot less money!
-Joe
They're not that big !
One thing they 'could' do is hire a Powermatic, or a Pete G and commission them to create perhaps a 100 'limited edition' models (of course I know it could take years to do).
This brings new light to the company via trade publications, expo's, etc., (especially when new models aren't being offered after extended periods of time) not to mention all the free publicity they'd receive.
McIntosh comes to mind in a similar move..
just thinking out loud...
"Live life as if you'll die tomorrow... -Gandhi
Learn life as if you'll live forever..."
You left out Dr K! These three craftsmen have illustrated what 'can' be done by a skilled woodworker. All three designs differ, but all three are beautiful to my eyes. To a far lesser degree, I have shown that an ordinary schmuck can build his own (but still attractive) hardwood frames, and cook up a different design to boot. Others have taken different routes which ended in various levels of improvement (functional and aesthetic) over stock (I hope that reads like I intended it). Frankly, I believe this is how it will forever remain and I don't mind it one bit - think about the implied subtext (especially as it relates to their 20 series) if Magnepan were to do what you propose (and how long would it take to get 100 of these built?). There are more hardwood framed Maggies on the horizon and I look forward to seeing them all, but I honestly think they will always be in the domain of the aftermarket - built by hardcore nutcases like us!
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
> > Okay, but isn't Magnepan healthy as is? < <I guess they're healthy; as much as any company would be during these poor economic times.
Adding to my original thought, even if they 'quadrupled' the cost of a MMG it would still cost less than 1/2 for a 3.6 and just a hair more than the MG1.6.
What they could essentially do is (without stepping on it's bigger brother's toes) create a '35th anniversary commemorative Magneplanar' be it MMG, MG12, 1.6, etc., not really setting out to sell the units but simply raising awareness, or simply bring attention to your company. Kinda like the big auto makers when they introduce those cool prototypes (but never see hit the sales floor).How much would a five (full page) ad cost you in Stereophile?
A lot of money I'm sure; but having your much anticpate product reviewed (and glorified) on five pages for free is priceless.
"Live life as if you'll die tomorrow... -Gandhi
Learn life as if you'll live forever..."
Those cool looking cars are showcases for the technology a manufacturer is developing, and occasionally they even make it to market. I like the idea; I really do. The last thing I want to do here is argue (especially with someone like you), but when a speaker is ripped apart and rebuilt like this one, what Joe Schmo said is very true - it ceases to be the product of its original manufacturer. In a very real sense, this is a powermatic MMG! As such, it wouldn't showcase Magnepan's technology so much as powermatic's prowess at designing and building a speaker using a Magnepan driver.
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
> > The last thing I want to do here is argue < <lol; I gave that up eons ago!
Never liked reading others that do that either.
I think aloud a lot of times and occasionally'll wedge em' in wherever I can!
However; you could in therory remove the driver from it's original housing and prop it against a wall; it's still a Magnepan. Conversely, you could build every frame/XO imagineable around it and it's still (IMO) gonna be a Magnepan.
> > but when a speaker is ripped apart and rebuilt like this one, what Joe Schmo said is very true - it ceases to be the product of its original manufacturer < <I respectfully disagree with you and joe schmo!
I guess the ultimate test would be of course to market one under any name other than Magnepan. I wouldn't want to be behind the eight ball on that one (even USING the Magnepan name!).
Apogee thought they could back in the 80's with their version of the true ribbon tweeter and well, after Jim challenged em' in court, he ultimately (and sucessfully) ran em' out of business.
"Live life as if you'll die tomorrow... -Gandhi
Learn life as if you'll live forever..."
I agree! The Magnepan driver is very unique and can no doubt perform much of its magic ripped from its original frame, hung from the ceiling with monofilament fishing line, no crossover and powered by a clock radio and still trump some “high-end” speakers. They’re that good! In fact, that’s half the genius of the invention by Winey and company. The other half? A brilliant manufacturing and marketing plan.
Pick up the May copy of The Absolute Sound magazine and glance at the feature near the back titled “The TAS Short List”. It’s a short list of editor recommended components arranged by component type and subdivided into price break points. If you notice Magnepan has a recommended speaker in each and every price break point of the loudspeaker category that they make a product in…… their entire line of products! The Holy Grail in marketing, no matter the product, is to be able to “own” every price point that the product category spans. Magnepan has achieved that distinction and few if any other speaker manufacturers ever have. It could even be suggested that a manufacturer would deliberately “dumb down” a product that uses a core technology that they own and can manufacture with little difference in manufacturing cost between products, simply to provide an upgrade path for future purchases from existing customers. In fact, it’s done all the time!
My guess, the folks at Magnepan are very content with the success they have achieved, as well they should be, and are following the old adage, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”.
-Joe
They're not that big !
The driver is the heart and soul of a speaker, and not one of us has monkeyed with that! I'm torn - what you are stating is the point PG makes about his "M" status (I'm not the manufacturer; I'm just the alchemist!). Can I support both positions?
Still, as much as I like your idea, and agree that it would give Magnepan more exposure, I think it differs from the show car analogy in a very meaningful way. It wouldn't showcase technology which Magnepan is developing; it wouldn't highlight the stylistic direction their future efforts would be taking. As such, it might actually backfire on them - I don't want those; I want the ones I saw in that magazine article!
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
> > I don't want those; I want the ones I saw in that magazine article! < <Well one could get one in the magazine (limited edition model); you'd just have to pay top dollar for it! The pubic would be well aware there only available in limited numbers; place your order in advance and ye shall have one;)
A company would have to make a decision at that point; whether enough interest would dictate whether such a model would go into production.
There COULD be a drawback/backfire that such a model would be out of reach for most 'MMG' fans and would probably end up hurting MG1.6 sales in the long run IMHO.
Either way it's good publicity for such a company as long as it's understood such a model would only be offered in limited numbers.
Great thread!
"Live life as if you'll die tomorrow... -Gandhi
Learn life as if you'll live forever..."
Yes, if they did something different (not this nice and labor intensive, obviously) but different, and really good - why, the MMG's would sell for two grand!!!
Yeah, but if they sounded better then 1.6's and looked great, hell, I'd be thrilled to pay two grand for them. That's what I want from White Bear Lake - a two thousand dollar pair of MMG's! :)
I like the way you incorporated the grills into pulling 'dual duty' as rear diffusers;)
All around beautiful work, incredible craftsmanship.
"Live life as if you'll die tomorrow... -Gandhi
Learn life as if you'll live forever..."
Thanks-the grills are a lot of fun. Plus, there's a built-in storage area when not being used!
"Dammit..."
Your frames look fantastic and those bases are just the coolest! I love your use of curves - top and bottom. They look nice clothed or naked - I don't think that triangle is too large (neat idea). The single strut is hidden from view (from the front) which is a nice touch. You obviously spent a great deal of time, energy, and thought on that project - it really shows. You wood worker types are going to give us ordinary folk a complex!
BTW - What's wrong with wire nuts anyway? All they do is maintain a proper twist connection which is, from an electrical standpoint, rather ideal.
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
Thanks man, for the input and the kind words.
I'll e-mail later.
"Dammit..."
.
Very nice work! I really like the way you integrated the crossovers into the base. The removable grills are a nice touch too. Please give us some details on your impressions of the sonic changes. Once again, you did an exceptional job on these.-Joe
They're not that big !
The curved speaker tops look really classy. Nice room and rig also. I like the removable grill with stand conversion to diffusser idea, good form and function.
Later, Buster.
"nice work" would be an understatement. They really look slick.
Very professional looking.
Excellent design and craftsmanship. I hope they sound as good as they look.
The arched top is a nice design element.
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