I am planing to build a line array using 8 X Audax HM130Z12s but can't decide between a line array of 16 tweeters or just a single tweeter at ear height.The advantage of the single tweeter is that I can make the box that much narrower (asuming I use a box, not a dipole) for better imaging and secondly that I can avoid possible combing effects from the tweeters. And imaging is very important to me. I will crossover at around 2.8Khz with the line source tweeters or maybe as high as 3.5 KHz with a single tweeter.
My main question is how important is the spacial information in the 3.5KHz up region compared to the below 3.5KHz region? Will I get confused messages using a point source tweeter in the middle of an array 1.3 metres high or am I sufficiently past the region of most critical imaging?
The second question is egarding experience with combing. The tweeters I would use are only 1" domes which can be spaced as close as 2.5" apart. Thats still way more than 1/4 wavelength at 10 KHz though.
on the other hand they are not a point source - each dome will cover approx 1/2 the distance to the next tweeter which should give quite a lot of fudge factor. Will that avoid comb effects? (I would like to avoid drilling 32 holes just to find this out when someone here may have done all this already!)
Now to save you all sending me messages about the problems I already know about I have the obvious ones covered:a. I know the line of mid/bass drivers will only balance with the tweeter output at one fixed distance - that's fine - the system is just for me and I have a CLIO to easily make the setup measurements "in room" and from my listening postiion.
b. The impedance and efficiency issues are not a problem as the tweeter I will use (if a single) is way more efficient that the mid/bass drivers so I have room to pad it to whatever I need.
c. Whichever box I use will be augumented below 100Hz (but not rolled off!) by an active woofer with EQs to match my room so the sub 100Hz bass is not an issue.
d. Cost is not an issue as I have already bought the 32 audax Ti tweeters needed so if I do opt for the single tweeter it will not save me anything.
e. If I do got for a linesource of tweeters I could space then equidistantly (but still as close as possible) to avoid highlighting any particular frequency nodes.Any help from people with first hand experience in this stuff would be greatly appreciated.
John Corneille
(PS I have also posted this on the regular speaker forum as I will no doubt be talking to converted dipole enthusiasts on this forum and need a balanced opinion/feedback.)
Follow Ups:
- Re: The boxes I'm bolting together this afternoon... - Bogardus 07:01:10 11/09/06
(0)
- In Reply to: line array - use single tweeter? Any 1st hand experience? posted by topogon on November 5, 2006 at 22:21:57:
(Yup. Bolts. Thinking "industrial." Unless I wimp out, and go back to screws. Finish is gonna be black Duratex).
...are 6.5" wide... I'm figuring a line of 4" drivers down the middle. Then, along the sides, I'm putting together several different tweeter arrays to try out... I'm going to try a batch of Dayton Neos at about 3500, a batch of mylars at about 8,000, a set of piezos (Hey, I hear that a lot of their problems go away with a crossover, especially when using multiples, and if I don't like any of them, I'm gonna spend some bucks on a batch of ribbons... Crossover is a Rane active crossover, and there is also active EQ...
- What timing! I'm building about the same thing. I'm using SonicCraft 6-1/2"ers... - jeffreybehr 23:38:40 11/05/06
(20)
- In Reply to: line array - use single tweeter? Any 1st hand experience? posted by topogon on November 5, 2006 at 22:21:57:
...in an 8-driver line array, dipole and open baffle. Here's the 1st ProtoType.
It had one 1"-dome tweeter and enough treble energy, but it was definitely missing something...some life?...in the highs. The 2nd PT added some bass drivers, and I also tested the inexpensive ($29 in quantity) Dayton mag.-planar tweeter. I ordered more of those and am just now assembling PT 3, which will contain a linearray of 8 tweeters.
Notice the empty channel for the tweeters.
We'll see, probably later today--Monday.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
- I still have lots of finishing work to do, but they're running... - jeffreybehr 22:55:59 11/07/06
(3)
- In Reply to: What timing! I'm building about the same thing. I'm using SonicCraft 6-1/2"ers... posted by jeffreybehr on November 5, 2006 at 23:38:40:
...and WOW do they sound GOOD.
I'm thrilled they sound as good as they do. Three more experienced hi-end audiofools were here tonite and told me I should be quite proud of my accomplishments.
Adjusted the X-over points tonite and will continue to work on those; will be doing more wing-damping soon.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
- They do look good. - Tom C 06:40:17 11/08/06
(2)
- In Reply to: I still have lots of finishing work to do, but they're running... posted by jeffreybehr on November 7, 2006 at 22:55:59:
Is the woofer dipole?
Are the tweeters dipole? I saw the mounting would close off the back wave.
What crossover points are you using?
How does it sound when you crank them up?Thanks,
Tom
- TY. The main drivers and woofers are dipole. The tweeters have... - jeffreybehr 10:03:14 11/08/06
(1)
- In Reply to: They do look good. posted by Tom C on November 8, 2006 at 06:40:17:
...closed backs and are NOT dipole.
I'm still tweaking the filterpoints. Originally I wanted to get as much goodness out of the main drivers as possible by running them up to 4- or 5KHz, but after running them full-range for some days, I decided that Glowacki is correct--they do sound hard in the treble occasionally. After adding the Dayton mag.-planar tweeters, I then decided to get as much of them in the treble as possible, so right now, the LP is 2400Hz* (single-order...just one inductor) while the HP is 2750 (also S-O). I'm still researching effects of same-polarity drivers and single-order filters, so I'm sure one or both of them will change.
I had enough 24- and 27g. Teflon-insulated silver conductors to wire the tweeters; I'll be using 18- and 20g. for the main drivers.
The very-high degree of transparency** of ProtoType-1 is back; this system really does allow one to 'see' into the orchestra and hall very well. These 6-1/2" drivers are excellent and, at $10 each, perhaps the hi-end super-value of the century.
It sounds, overall, 1. VERY spacious and BIG, just the way I like my music to sound; 2. a little warm that verges on thickness, some of which I attibute to resonating wings; 3. quite image-specific, and I think that'll get better with some diffraction tweaking with wool strips; 4. very macro- and microdynamic (one fellow last nite said "it does 'delicate' really well"); and 5. QUITE full-range, with excellent bottom-octave power and texture (and it's better at both than PT2 with its four 6-1/2" drivers).
I haven't listened at high levels yet, but I usually don't. I expect it'll hold together quite well.
.* I tried measuring this acoustically, but results in my musicroom were inconsistent--too much other noise outside the house, apparently, so I measured both of these electrically. The FPs quoted are the -3dB points compared with the inductor or cap shorted.
** Two very experienced golden-eared audiofools both opined that PT1, within its frequency limitations, was as transparent as any system they'd ever heard. After about 10 seconds of music, they looked at each other with jaws dropped open. Sure made me feel good.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
- The test which few speakers pass for me........ - Tom C 10:19:42 11/08/06
(0)
- In Reply to: TY. The main drivers and woofers are dipole. The tweeters have... posted by jeffreybehr on November 8, 2006 at 10:03:14:
Find some well recorded very dynamic jazz trumpet. Play it loud on the ETs and you will find with enough power the ETs can give a sense of reality, but at no where near the real volume. With other speakers I find the bite of the trumpet is missing and therefore much less satisfying. Give it a try on your new prototype. The planar tweeters might just do the trick.
- The test which few speakers pass for me........ - Tom C 10:19:42 11/08/06
(0)
- TY. The main drivers and woofers are dipole. The tweeters have... - jeffreybehr 10:03:14 11/08/06
(1)
- They do look good. - Tom C 06:40:17 11/08/06
(2)
- Re: Where are the ETs??? - benie 11:26:06 11/06/06
(15)
- In Reply to: What timing! I'm building about the same thing. I'm using SonicCraft 6-1/2"ers... posted by jeffreybehr on November 5, 2006 at 23:38:40:
Hope you didn't give up on the ET 8a, mine are breaking in very nicely.
Nice work on your new speakers,where are your x-over points?
- The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... - jeffreybehr 14:52:49 11/06/06
(14)
- In Reply to: Re: Where are the ETs??? posted by benie on November 6, 2006 at 11:26:06:
...and I guess I lusted for more of that triode sound, in the form of SETs. The new JG6517s (that's Jeff Glowacki for the driver designer, 65 for the main-driver size, and 17 for the driver count per channel).
So I have a pair of new-version ASL AQ1006/845s on the way (if DT ever ships them, that is), and soon the 'Canes and the ET8s will be for sale.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
- Re: The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... - Stale 14:19:47 11/08/06
(2)
- In Reply to: The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... posted by jeffreybehr on November 6, 2006 at 14:52:49:
Jeffrey,
ETs treble is not inherently "hard", it usually reveals recording or equipment/cabling problems, or better said incompatibility.
I did not beleve it, but AQ Bedrock (that is typically considered smooth) had some upper range roughness. I accredited it first to the amp, than to speakers.
Fortunatelly I like to play with cables, so I tried Kimber 4TC (that many complain as being bright) and roughness is absolutely gone, smoooth but still detailed.
IMHO, LFT-8s just show as it is.
- Re: The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... - Mr_bill2 17:55:48 11/08/06
(1)
- In Reply to: Re: The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... posted by Stale on November 8, 2006 at 14:19:47:
Hey Stale,
Are you running those 4TCs single or bi-wire?
- Re: The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... - Stale 18:27:07 11/08/06
(0)
- In Reply to: Re: The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... posted by Mr_bill2 on November 8, 2006 at 17:55:48:
Biwire, 4TC on panels, Siltech Paris on bass.
- Re: The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... - Stale 18:27:07 11/08/06
(0)
- Re: The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... - Mr_bill2 17:55:48 11/08/06
(1)
- Re: I understand your lust for a set amp! - benie 00:25:19 11/07/06
(1)
- In Reply to: The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... posted by jeffreybehr on November 6, 2006 at 14:52:49:
While I was waiting for my ETs I heard a 2way bookself with duel subs and a pair of super tweeters all hooked up to a beautiful 25 watt set amp, I loved it.
Made me really think about my choice of a hard to drive speaker.
But I sure am having alot of fun and enjoying my ETs.
Good luck on your new venture.Ken
- Ken, I find ALL nondipole speakers to sound too forward... - jeffreybehr 08:59:05 11/07/06
(0)
- In Reply to: Re: I understand your lust for a set amp! posted by benie on November 7, 2006 at 00:25:19:
...and I do NOT like that with the music I listen to.
Except for the lack of macrodynamics, I was happy with my 8s being driven by the 'Canes in triode...but for that slight treble hardness I couldn't tame. Oh well.
BTW, with the more-sensitive speakers, orchestral ('crash') cymbals sort of explode out of the orchestra with the best (SACD) recordings.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
- Ken, I find ALL nondipole speakers to sound too forward... - jeffreybehr 08:59:05 11/07/06
(0)
- C'mon Jeffrey ... - andyr 19:26:22 11/06/06
(3)
- In Reply to: The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... posted by jeffreybehr on November 6, 2006 at 14:52:49:
you went into print as their greatest-ever advocate!! :-))
I forget whether you've owned Maggies but perhaps when you've "recovered" from this "create your own speaker" virus, you might like to get cosy with some Maggies and start to enjoy your music!! LOL!!
Regards,
Andy
- I'm here Andy; don't need to c'mon. I've been enjoying the music... - jeffreybehr 08:52:16 11/07/06
(1)
- In Reply to: C'mon Jeffrey ... posted by andyr on November 6, 2006 at 19:26:22:
...all this while.
Only Mags I owned were decades ago; we bought them for the bass panels to accompany Strathern mag.-planar drivers.
And don't preach to me about enjoying the music with Mags; seems EVERYONE can hardly get them into the house before they're ripping out wiring, fuses, crossovers, etc. Said another way, Mags are PROJECTS...and that's OK; obviously, I too like projects. :-)
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
- Haha ... You're correct, Jeffrey! :-)) ... - andyr 12:46:26 11/07/06
(0)
- In Reply to: I'm here Andy; don't need to c'mon. I've been enjoying the music... posted by jeffreybehr on November 7, 2006 at 08:52:16:
In my case, an on-going (and probably never-ending) project! :-))
I look at it this way ... Magnepan's engineering philosophy mean that I can aquire a speaker that is capable of tremendous sound for a very reasonable cost. But there's a lot you have to do to them to get them to deliver their best! :-))
Good luck with your multiple-driver project.
Regards,
Andy
- Haha ... You're correct, Jeffrey! :-)) ... - andyr 12:46:26 11/07/06
(0)
- Re: C'mon Jeffrey ... - Mr_bill2 06:57:01 11/07/06
(0)
- In Reply to: C'mon Jeffrey ... posted by andyr on November 6, 2006 at 19:26:22:
Just for the record...sold his Quad 989s for the ET-8s as I recall.
As someone else suggested below, you have to take care in feeding the 8s correctly; the rewards can be tremendous! The speakers in my system are my least expensive component, I've had cables that retail for more.
- I'm here Andy; don't need to c'mon. I've been enjoying the music... - jeffreybehr 08:52:16 11/07/06
(1)
- Re: The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... - Mr_bill2 15:38:08 11/06/06
(4)
- In Reply to: The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... posted by jeffreybehr on November 6, 2006 at 14:52:49:
For those who have stock ET-8s...(it's been my experience)
The sometimes "treble-hardness" can be mostly tamed(and quite livable with) if one sets the mid/hi panel to the medium setting and doesn't ask the speaker to play above its means.
On really good SACDs I find the hi setting just fantastic but unfortunately not all digital has been created equal. Would have been nice if Bruce would have included a toggle switch for easier changes between settings but then again not at the expense of the magic.
- I must play them too low (65-75 db)to experience the... - tomw2 20:27:31 11/06/06
(0)
- In Reply to: Re: The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... posted by Mr_bill2 on November 6, 2006 at 15:38:08:
treble-hardness?...then again I have tubes everywhere ( dac and int amp) and have forgiving cables...oh well.
- I agree with your findings. Don't blame the speaker for revealing CD format's faults. - Tom C 16:11:31 11/06/06
(2)
- In Reply to: Re: The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... posted by Mr_bill2 on November 6, 2006 at 15:38:08:
SACDs produced from DSD are so much better than CDs on a speaker like the ETs that we are talking about a whole new universe. I've listened to a lot of stuff and little comes close. The only other reproduction similar to it was a Mobile Fidelity LP through big tube amps on very large Acoustats. The ET's can not match the enveloping effect of the Acoustats, but all the other attributes of smoothness and natural reporduction are there.
Jeff's approach could be related to a reproduction of a painting. The reproduction is missing something so he proposes to look at it through frosted glass rather than seek out the original.
I chose to follow a different path.
- "...could be...', but I don't think so. None of the various versions... - jeffreybehr 17:38:29 11/06/06
(1)
- In Reply to: I agree with your findings. Don't blame the speaker for revealing CD format's faults. posted by Tom C on November 6, 2006 at 16:11:31:
...of the line-array, dipole, open-baffle systems exhibit that hardness, even when all channels and 'ends' are driven by the humble Outlaw 770, so we'll hear what we hear.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
- Have fun Jeff. (nt) - Tom C 17:47:56 11/06/06
(0)
- In Reply to: "...could be...', but I don't think so. None of the various versions... posted by jeffreybehr on November 6, 2006 at 17:38:29:
x
- Have fun Jeff. (nt) - Tom C 17:47:56 11/06/06
(0)
- "...could be...', but I don't think so. None of the various versions... - jeffreybehr 17:38:29 11/06/06
(1)
- I must play them too low (65-75 db)to experience the... - tomw2 20:27:31 11/06/06
(0)
- Re: The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... - Stale 14:19:47 11/08/06
(2)
- The ET8s? Right now on the patio. I never did solve the treble-hardness problem I heard... - jeffreybehr 14:52:49 11/06/06
(14)
- I still have lots of finishing work to do, but they're running... - jeffreybehr 22:55:59 11/07/06
(3)
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
You can not post to an archived thread.
[
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]