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...under a previous law, Indiana had a "net-metering" agreement--customers purchased electricity from utilities at retail-rate (~$0.15/kWh), and if they had excess solar energy production, they were credited at a 1:1 "swap" at the full retail rate.
This law expires July 1st (tomorrow). All customers installing home solar arrays will now pay full-retail for their electricity (~$0.15/kWh), but will only receive $0.03-0.04/kWh credit for any excess energy contribution to the grid, making it a 4:1 or 5:1 "swap" in favor of the utility companies.
As estimated in the linked article, this could double the length of time required to off-set the installation cost of residential solar arrays, and discourage people from doing so.
GO GREEN!!!
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
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And for the majority of the state, it's ill advised.
Rooftop solar produces electricity exactly when the grid needs it most.
When it's hot in the summer and the sun is shining and everyone, every home and every business, is running their air conditioning.
We have solar, we sell the energy back to the electric company during peak times.
That's it.
"...
Rooftop solar produces electricity exactly when the grid needs it most. ..."That is not true.
Peak solar production and peak demand do NOT overlap. Just look at the time-of-use charge rates.
Peak energy rates are from 4pm to 9pm when everyone comes home and powers up their homes (AC, heating, fans, entertainment, electric cooking, electric laundry, recharging their EVs, lights).
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Ok, Tim?
What's that work out to? The 3 or 4 hour 'overlap' is certianly of help.
And don't forget that as EVs become more common, that 'peak demand' may extend Past 2100 since EVs require, especially large numbers of 'em, lots of power....
The rest of the time? Give power companies time for repair of broken and periodic maintenanc ef equipment not YET broken which will run long with proper PM (periodic maintenance).
I think if homes had a battery bank and a little excess solar for recharge? You could bank enough power to defer 'peak' usage and get yourself to morning. when the cycle repeats.
Too much is never enough
Battery banks are the most expensive part of solar. You would need @ $10K in the cheapest LiFePo batteries to have a basic/limited system (not including controllers, cabling, installation, permits, PV panels, racking, boxes, conduit, breakers, switches, etc.).The average US home uses @ 900KWH/month or @ 30KWH/day. Add more to charge an EV. Then add some more to account for overcast/cloudy day reserves and you are over $10K in batteries that have limited life spans.
Here is peak production and peak demand chart so you can see they don't match.
Time to do a DST shift by 4 hours so people come home at noon.
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Tim, Your Average is at least 3x my average.
If I kick on the AC? Still not bad, since my usage is maybe 3 months per year.
During summer? We shift hours some. Less indoor cooking......(heat) while I tend to eat less and am good with cold food.
I could send you my stats for the last couple years or more.
Too much is never enough
Even in May, I get no significant power until 8:00am or 9:00am then plenty until about 6:00 pm.
Your chart shows NO electrical production after 3:00PM?
The charts are for fixed mounted southern exposure panels.
How many people's roofs typically have biaxial realtime sun-tracker mounts ???
If the panels were mounted facing west, the bell curve would be shifted slightly to the right.
You can do you own search for such charts which are published by many companies.
There are also other configurations like "biaxial tracker", "overpaneling", "parallel southern and western strings" and "equilateral triangle" mounting which change the shape of the bell curve, but they are not representative of the normal residential roof configurations.
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Mine are mounted SE (as it clouds over in the afternoons in summer here due to monsoon). But newer panels can be mounted closer to flush on a flat roof with but a few degrees tilt.
Above is power produced on May 14, 2022. Clear most of the day and still producing at 6:00 pm, in mid May.
180 degrees....Due South is I think 'perfect' for solar.
But a Bias to the west may improve evening output.
My house? One roof is at 120 degrees andback half of the house at 210.....90 degrees apart.
That'll bias the output to 'later'.
What I really want is enough capacity to keep a couple PAIR of Tesla PowerWall charged.
I don't know? A split install of maybe 1/4 on the 120 degree pitch and 3/4 on the 210 pitch?
Too much is never enough
Manufacturing is typically a 24-7 operation......
My company had an electric bill running to 6 digits Monthly.
And that was about a decade ago.. Must be higher by now!
I know battereies are $$$. Currently (no pun intended) it it tough to get around that.
But other schemes for trasfer of power have been tried.
One idea was to pump water up a BIG hill. Do so late at night when power rates were the lowest.
Than during 'peak demand' time? Release the water to spin turbines to provide peak power. This power is recovered at far higher rate than it took to 'store' the energy. Net Plus.
Link to the proposal for Lake Elsinore which is just up the road....sort of.
It may be technically feasible to use battery storage in your house. Use peak solar to defer power to peak deamnd times..
Of course? It is illegal to go off grid. You are a rate paying Prisoner of Sempra. And when we get to Net Metering 3, you will be charged a fixed momthly based on installed capacity. And they'll probably go the 'indiana' route and charge retail and pay wholesale for power you put in the grid.
Too much is never enough
There is a YouTube video where a guy did a small version of that configuration by placing a 55 gallon drum on the roof peak of his house and filling it with water and 2 tubes (fill and drain). He used a solar panel to fill it and then metered the energy coming out of it. The 55 gallon drum stored the equivalent of a AA battery.Granted, his "turbine" could have been more efficient.
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Edits: 07/01/22
Looks like a fun waste of time.
My brother suggested putting several turbines IN SERIES to get more out than you put IN.
Trying to tell him that perpetual motion doesn't work was on the same level of difficulty as trying to
explain that electrical power is in Watts, not amps.
I wonder how pumped storage math works out? Higher better, for more 'head' pressure?
Check out link about Hoover Dam. turbines have been replaced in some alternators to yield better results with the new, lower head pressure. Level is down over 100 feet....
Too much is never enough
I am sure the neighbors appreciate the neighborhood eyesore.
The second video covers some of the vertical height delta issues.
I have been watching the water levels in the various lakes and Hoover Dam.
The old inlet for Las Vegas is now above water and they had to build a lower inlet.
Bodies and boat wrecks are being "beached".
Plenty of $$$ for the toy choo choo, but nothing for the water infrastructure and reserves.
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I wonder how many Mob-Induced Missing Persons will eventually be 'beached' during the drought?
While the desert is a fun place to dig a hole, I don't see how a 55gallon drum and a bag of cemeent could Miss? OOOPS!
I don't know how much water, at least in California, goes 'uncaptured'......and If we raised the total a lot, would it be enough and what OTHER unintended consequences we'd cause.
Nope. Ca. with 40 million persons? is way over populated.
Too much is never enough
Most all of the PRK's water runs straight out into the ocean where it could be captured and used for irrigation, turf and other uses instead of using potable water for those purposes.
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I don't mean to be rude, but show me the data.And also? Show me where to store MORE water. My brother had an idea to use GIANT rubber bladders in 50 to 100 feet of water. Water would stay cold and being out of the sun, would have little incentive for 'growth'....
And Please do NOT forget the (not a theory) aspect of Unintended Consequences. Channeling a rivers output into storage has already been shown to have generally ill effects. Just Look at the Colorado River which reaches the Sea Of Cortez maybe 2x per decade. Mexico is reallly angry and the space between where the river 'ends' in the USA and the former outlet is now Stinkin' Desert.
My 3/4 Wit brother in law is in favor of building a canal from IDAHO to use some of what he perceives to be surplus water. Good idea!
One last minor point. SanDiego water storage is in a couple dozen reservoirs. Some fairly small while the San Vicente is pretty good sized.....see picture.....Water stored now is about 45% of capacity......
Too much is never enough
Edits: 07/02/22
I saw where some guy was cutting city curbs to allow rain water to flow back into the soil to prevent it running out into the ocean.
Cutting city curbs is illegal, but the results of the free irrigation reversed the laws and it started to become a thing. This increases ground water and also increases available evaporation for rain.
This is a variant of my idea by preventing it from entering the cement drainage systems in the first place.
View YouTube Video
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Fact remains that I get only So Much rain in any given year. I checked 'the map' and see that my back yard, which now has a deep buried pipe (5' diameter or more?) runs along what was at one point a 'seasonal strream'. I've walked the pipe from end to end and it starts uphill at a big dip where the inlet is located. This is a drainage for several hundred vacant acres. Soil is of VERY low porosity, which I infer by the fact that after a day of LIGHT rain, water flows for the next week or more.
Following the pipe thru the neighbors yards, it goes UNDER a 4 lane street (was 2 when I moved here in about '87) , makes a 90 degree LEFT and pops out in the swamp on the South and West edge of the Guajome Park. I've explored ALL the trails and than some, finding a few water control half-dams and such to direct flow. The LOW SPOT of the lake, had a relieve of 50 feet or greater width Under Hwy 76 which flows out to the San Luis Rey River. I've walked the entire perimeter and that is THE low spot. The rest si a lot higher, forming a large depression At least 2 stand pipes, maybe 25 feet tall are to the north, but I can't imagine the water EVER getting that deep, especially since the underpass at the highway was finished.
There is a small UPPER lake which most people visiting the park never see. And no real way to get TO it except at one spot.
Attached image is of the park, showing one of my walks.....a elevation trace OF my walk is the inset.
People ARE ignorant. Wash Cars? Hose Driveways?
Too much is never enough
The water bladder idea is interesting at first blush until it gets punctured.
I saw where someone had a solar farm floating on water. I assume the water was to cool the panels to increase their efficiency and keep them from getting too hot, but water and electricity don't mix too well. If it was salt water, even worse and the salt corrosion would severely shorten the life of the solar panels.
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ONE anchor drag and your bubble is burst.
When I pointed that out to my brother? We never did agree.
As for Solar on water? I get it. Sealing problems are epic. I can think of a couple solutions, at least one of which involves positive air pressure forcing the joins dry. You could also locate the solar 'farm' o shore and use a water to water intercooler to pump a more benign solution as panlel cooling.
Ocean water a couple hundred yards off shore is hardly ever over 65f which gives plenty of Temp Delta making panels more efficient.
Still too many people!
Too much is never enough
Just look at all of the massive cement lined drainage systems (that Hollywood routinely includes in their movies, Terminator, The Core, Grease, ...) through out the LA basin. It is dry all year long except for rainy season and runs straight out into the ocean.Same goes where I live. There is a cement lined artery system that runs through out neighborhoods and out to the ocean. If it had levies placed in it, the water could be kept and used for irrigation until empty. Easily 3 stories deep.
The local wildlife use the remaining pockets of water until the low spots are dried up so it would also extend the water supply for the wildlife.
The cement lined reservoirs are already there, they are just missing the stepped levies. No redirection of rivers necessary.
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SoCal gets no more than a foot of rain per year. that's gonna be a big year.
a foot of rain is as much ass 10x that in SNOW.
Do the math and than multiply by some factor LESS than one.
Also? Don't forget that Rainwater from the streets of almost any large city is really a form of pollution. Oil? Gas? Tire dust? Animal / Pet waste? Industrial?
Treating the oceans as an Infinite Sewer is probably a bad idea.
I won't even hazard a guess as to the possibilities of treatment and storage.
TOO AMANY PEOPLE...
Too much is never enough
Wonder how much chum it generates.
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Edits: 07/09/22
...when I built the training center and incorporated solar into the design, I initially dismissed including battery storage, due to cost. But that building is on the farthest opposite corner of a 13+ acre rectangular lot from the other buildings on-site, so it would have been prohibitively expensive to run power lines from the whole-site capable generator.
I caved and added battery storage with enough capacity to fully operate the entire building for ~3-4 days (largely weather-dependent), and beyond that, a small pad-mounted generator can handle the "basics".
Because solar was included in the initial design, installation cost of the panels was significantly lower than retro-fitting an existing structure, so that off-set some of the total cost. The battery storage system basically cost as much as the actual solar array, but qualified as part of the total installation in terms of "incentives".
It took several weeks of "number crunching" to arrive at a final "plan" that made sense.
If you're contemplating adding solar, I'd be looking to do so sooner rather than later, as the utilities seem to be lining-up against home solar.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
SEEM? Seem? Funny, since here is CA, the governor is waiting to approve Net Metering 3 sooner than later. As soon as the storm blows over and he can extort more 'campaign' money from them.
Solar will be subject to a monthly fee per installed Kw. And other 'adjustments' to rate structure which are in favor of the utilities. Like those parasites from SEMPRA who essentially walked into another multi-year contract and 'own' the SD Power Market.
NEM 3.0 update at link.
Too much is never enough
Yeah, $8/mo per kWh to be a customer, that's $32 for a typical 4kWp system for a 3b, 2ba home. Net metering is going away and excess production will get paid at wholesale and any power used will be priced by time of use instead of a 1 to 1 offset. Basically, you'll pay 50 cents when the sun goes down and get a 4 cent credit for excess production in the afternoon along with a $32 bill each month, no matter what.
Our bill is likely to go from $13 this year to over $1,500 assuming we produce far more than we use from SDG&E.
Batteries will help. At least we won't give them almost free power. But the utilities don't care. While roof top solar is the best solution as it high in ROI and saves investment by the utility.But they can't charge folks. Their preference is big solar farms that they control.
Having to buy batteries isn't a good deal for the utility if they don't get the up charge on the power.
I'm hoping the prices will come down on batteries along with some tax credits.
-Rod
I'd PERSONALLY get out the Giant Diagonal Cutters and remove myself from the electrical grip of SDGE. Parasites.
Also? If you have a functioning system by what amounts to the End of November 2022, you are grandfathered IN to NetMetering 2.0 for 15 years, not the promised 20. Another scam.
Me? I'd like a big array and enough batteries for a small submarine. Than pull the plug.
I think it is ILLEGAL to go off-grid in San Diego. You are a slave to the power company. But I could be wrong. Recent changes in the law make it easier to rid yourself of the power company.
I see a list of requirements which written in legalese will run 200 pages.....
Link is as good a place to start as any.....
Too much is never enough
I just watched a guy's new system he was testing. He had 30kWH's $(10K) of batteries and another 15 more waiting to be added to the bank.
The simulated an outage to test the automatic transfer switch and a battery capacity test by throwing the mains on main grid panel. The transfer switch did its job and his whole house was powered for @ 5 hours before the 30kWH bank was depleted causing the backup generator to kick on and take over. His extra 3 batteries would give him @ 7 hours coverage total.
You basically buy a Telsa in the form of batteries in order to charge a Tesla.
Do you remember the cost of the batteries for the commercial install ???
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IIRC--and I'd have to pull the contract/invoice to verify--roughly $35-36K. They are Generac-branded, but I don't know the actual source/manufacturer of the battery cells. They do have a 10-year warranty against failure/failure to hold a charge of at least 80%. The "front-end" of the system (the panels, inverters, etc.) are all LG. The back-up generator is also Generac and runs on natural gas or propane.
My main whole-site generator is an old Siemens that I "rescued" from a hospital renovation project/auction. It is powered by a Volvo diesel engine.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
administering, providing transfer infrastructure, and distributing the small irregular increments of solar sources isn't free.
The vast majority of customers do not have the means or opportunity to install solar; why should they subsidize the rates of the (relatively) wealthy?
The trouble with environmental policy is that it's nearly always regressive. The poor get screwed by higher prices they cannot afford, so that the elites can congratulate one another.
Back for a bit again. Ignore me if you like.
for the utility because most people have more panels than they need and generate more than they can use.
The utilities then sell that energy to those poor folk you seem so concerned about.
on a 1:1 swap, the utility pays $1 to the solar owner, then charges $1 to the end customer.
Do you think magic pixies administer the program for buyback, and provide the structural means to take the electricity back into the grid, as well of as the means of distributing an irregular source, all for free?
In any sizable business, it's the small, the irregular, and the non-uniform product supply that drive unusually high costs related to the $ intake. I wouldn't be surprised if individual solar sources cost them almost as much in handling as their selling price, ignoring any return paid to the source.
For 1:1, the poor subsidize the upper classes through rates. Somebody has to pay the bills.
Back for a bit again. Ignore me if you like.
...if you're my friend/family and you borrow $10K, you give me back $10K as soon as, or whenever, you can. If I'm a loan-shark, you'll owe me $20K by the end of next week.
Private/residential solar installations aren't "free". They may be somewhat "subsidized" (but that is being significantly reduced), so someone is paying out-of-pocket to generate that excess electricity to add to the grid.
You're "borrowing" and then selling my electricity. Why should I pay you more for yours than you do for mine?--especially at an exchange-rate of ~30 cents on the dollar. You deserve an Oscar or Emmy if you can hold a straight-face and tell me that "distribution costs" are ~70%.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
not energy for money. Not that I'm looking for money.
I send about 1/2 a mega watt of energy to Power New Mexico each month, in the summer months, and they give zero money for it.
True, it's credited to my account so theoretically I could heat my home in winter with it or charge a Tesla at night, but most folks here in sunny New Mexico just send it on the the utility and know that it's there if they ever need it.
New Mexico let Power New Mexico change the rules a decade or so ago so the only folks getting paid are people with old, dying panels.
The power companies should pay the same rates as they do for their numerous power suppliers. It is a commodity they buy, deliver and resell, nothing more.
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It's a 'red' state where 'go green' has little real meaning.
We are 1:1 here in New Mexico, credit in the 'bank' (I've got 5 MW in the bank) for excess production and it stays in your account forever, with a $7.50 per month grid hookup fee only. No pay-out for excess ever? I don't think so.
Folks who bought solar years ago still get paid for the excess production but can't add panels or they go to the 1:1 credit plan.
Utilities don't like this much though, as they have to carry the power they owe you on their books as a liability, much the same as accrued vacation time (use it or lose it?). And forever? But they have only themselves to blame as the could have just gone to the crooked politicians here and got a 1:4 payout deal for excess like Indiana.
As long as the single largest drain on the grid is refrigeration-based air conditioning, for both homes and commercial buildings, and that is a higher drain in the daytime when the sun is shining, roof top solar makes a lot of sense economically and environmentally.
I can see climate-denying 'red' states taking a dim view of solar, but those stinky liberals in California?
Makes no sense to me.
"Go Green" has little or no meaning in practice.
The real term is "Relocate the carbon to some turd world shithole out of sight of the US customers".
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There's hope for you yet.
Now, if we could just keep you away from those QAnon publications. :-)
So you acknowledge and FINALLY ADMIT the "Green New STEAL" is a scam like all of the other "Go Green" scams before it and all of the BILLION$$$ in tax payer money wasted on it (flushed down the toilet given to bankrupt companies and kickbacks) by BHO and Biden the last time they were in the WH.Who ever does QAnon is a absolutely genius troll driving liberals absolutely bonkers.
I find it hilarious that whoever QAnon is lives in your heads rent free driving you out of your gourd. They convinced you that conservatives actually follow this anonymous troll.
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Edits: 06/30/22
But some folks are just beyond help!
"I can see climate-denying 'red' states taking a dim view of solar"
Who are you talking about?! I don't know anyone who denies that the climate is changing, and Texas is mostly a "red" state.
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
"Indiana follows CA's "lead" on home solar" was the subject line.
The abbreviation for California being CA, I was talking about 'blue' California.
Yet, you wrote this:
"I can see climate-denying 'red' states taking a dim view of solar"
Refer to my previous post.
Please explain.
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
Indiana
California
Red
Blue
What am I missing?
...our politicians aren't in the pockets of the utilities--yet. CA is bluer than the sky, but the politicians have been beholden to the utilities for decades/forever.
It's not even as simple as blue or red--follow the $$$$.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
Is Indiana also charging solar customers a set fee based on the KW size of their solar array each month ??? The more solar panels you have, the higher your monthly fees.
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...obviously, producing more than you require via solar is nowhere near "profitable", especially since you are paying full-retail rate for any electricity used off the grid--during the night or off-peak solar production times.
One reference in the article was to a customer seeing a $100/mo bill, even though their total "contribution" to the grid was greater than their monthly usage--just at the "wrong" times. It is no longer a monthly "net", now it is metered in "real-time". So you "give" the utility your juice all day, and then pay through the nose all night for theirs.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
Another thing the utility companies are doing is separating the "delivery charges" from the "electricity charges" and only playing on the "electricity portion" as if home owners do not incur "delivery charges" for their solar installation.
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