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In Reply to: RE: Says here, "...outlawing abortion could worsen maternal mortality crisis" posted by pictureguy on May 10, 2022 at 23:09:41
Birth control and condoms are not 100% effective.
One solution is for all men to have a vasectomy until they are ready to support a baby in full. A woman can't control egg production but a man can control his sperm. When he is ready to financially support a baby to adulthood then he can have the minor procedure reversed.
But I suppose guys don't want to be told what to do with their bodies.
Follow Ups:
Avoiding getting pregnant is extremely effective. It seems some women activists look at abortion as a badge of activism to be flaunted and encouraged.
Several effective options to avoid unwanted pregnancy. And RGA is correct, most contraceptives are not 100% effective, but 99% is pretty damn close.
You can't control the Brett Kavanaughs of the world who rape women less able to fend off physically larger men. Or the GOP lawmakers who say that women should try to enjoy their rapes. https://www.newsweek.com/robert-regan-gop-candidate-told-women-enjoy-rape-loses-race-michigan-1703331If people cared about stopping pregnancy they would ALSO care about the male side of the Tango. I am not a fan of Sharia style laws that have men deciding the rights of women - and the religious right seems to be all about controlling what other people do with their bodies or what they do in the bedroom and are then the same types of people who tell women to enjoy their rape. The same religious people on the supreme court who don't punish their priests for child rape. The people with the self-proclaimed higher moral standards (no one else would claim but them that's for damn sure).
There are several ways the Religious right in the US could solve this - pay women to bring their child to term and then adopt those children - if it is about "saving the babies" why are you not adopting? Is it because you don't want the financial burden? The Bible is all about giving all your possessions to help your fellow man. Guess the guys at the church stealing all your money don't mention that bit.
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." -Matthew 19:21-24
So if you force a poor woman to have a baby to live in STARVATION because the religious right wants 1-year-olds to pick themselves up by their bootstraps and you offer ZERO help then you're a culprit in that child's eventual death and the impact the poor have on society at large.
Granted the Bible is total BS and that was probably written to get suckers to donate money to the church to make the church extremely wealthy but still - if you are a sucker to believe in the Bible you should at least believe in it properly. You should not be buying $10,000 stereos - you should buy a $40 table radio and donate the $9960 to put food in kids' mouths - and not just white kids but all kids. LOL - fat chance right?
Edits: 05/11/22
You religious zealots an / or righty fascists are stripping sex education out of schools and birth control out of any health care? Better to keep them barefoot and pregnant I suppose.
It sucks to get old. It really sucks to get old and bitter.
"birth control out of any health care"
Birth control is readily available at any grocery store. Also, anyone's doctor can write a prescription for birth control pills. Also, anyone's doctor can refer a patient to a specialist for a male to have a vasectomy or for a female to have her tubes tied or ovaries removed. My understanding is that all of these options are covered by most health insurance plans.
"You religious zealots an / or righty fascists"
Oh, please, stop it with the turd throwing.
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
You quite often toss them around, I feel entitled and empowered.
It sucks to get old. It really sucks to get old and bitter.
Nt
nt
It sucks to get old. It really sucks to get old and bitter.
It is NOW.
But signals from the "pro-birth" movement have made it clear their aspiration to outlaw any form of contraception. At least some of them, on a national level, as well as outlawing abortion nationally.
Given the bedrock of Roe v Wade is buckling, we see a more complete agenda.
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"You are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you." ~ R A Wilson
That's right--before we know it, there will be legislation that makes it illegal to have sexual intercourse without the intention of conceiving a child. Even the rhythm method could be outlawed.
Big Pharma is said to be pouring millions into research on anti-blue balls medications.
Bill, where do you make this stuff up? Really, take a breath and relax. It's all going to be alright. Your still going to be able to masterbate if you can still get it up. Reality is your friend, seek and ye shall find.
You and other keep spouting this "outlawing contraceptives" thing, and I have NEVER even heard it mentioned or even hinted at.
So please show me proof. And not just some lefty touting it as truth to attempt to rile up their minions.
It's one of the most rediculous things I have ever heard, except for Russia Russia Russia and Hunter Bidens laptop is Russia disinformation.
You could do a simple google search "outlawing contraceptives" and then go dive in and read.
Or I suppose you can just indignantly post which I admit is far easier.
====
"You are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you." ~ R A Wilson
All a Google search showed was Liberal media saying the Mississippi Gove wouldn't rule out contraceptive use. They pulled a Chubby Checker. Watch the video below to see what was actually said about contraceptives.
Did you watch the interview Sunday morning with Chuck Todd Meet the Press? I did. And when Chuckster asked the Mississippi Gov if contraceptives would be banned in Mississippi. Watch the video if you want to hear what he actually said. It's the first interview.
Most of these issues there is a sliding scale of views of abortion.
Some folks believe the beginning of life is at conception - the catholic church has for years (Mother Theresa has said so on stage) that condoms should not be used. Others have said they are unsafe to get people to stop using them. School districts have tied funding to abstinence-only education. Now you can rightly argue that this is not the majority of the right wing - that it is only the Catholics who have this hard-line view but they do make up what 6 or 7 of the Supreme court judges? So it's not great to have a very small minority group wielding the majority of power. And if 7 of the 9 were hard line Sharia Muslims you would be 100% agreeing with me but because they are Catholic and in the same ballpark as Christians, Anglicans, Methodists and all others using the same Bible you don't see it as that big of a problem.
Then you have Christians on the other end of the Pro-life spectrum who are totally fine with the Pill, Condoms and abortion if the mother would die without one and in cases of rape or incest. These people are against abortion on demand and believe that a baby can be put up for adoption. I am in this camp - I don't think abortion should be a lazy person's form of birth control. But then I don't care where I personally stand on the issue because it's not me - people should have the right to make healthcare decisions for themselves whether I like it or not. Science has put in place various standards and timelines for when an abortion is allowed. The US actually has more loose standards in this regard than other countries so I could see the US tightening that up so if if it is 22 weeks in say France but 29 weeks in the US - then change it to 22 or whatever the numbers should be.
I agree that the left cries the sky is falling a lot - too much so that when the sky is actually falling they are taken as seriously as the boy who cried wolf - and we know what happened to him.
I think the issue the left is more bothered by is that like many class warfare issues - the rich white woman impregnated by her rich white Republican boyfriend who says he is against abortion will pay to fly her to a state or country that will abort the baby - hush hush while the poor black woman is forced to have a baby and be stuck in poverty - and I think you can agree that in general Republicans are not real big on paying "more" taxes to help said poor black woman raise that baby.
They'll pay to build a wall/war or give Bezos a tax break but "helping poor black babies" is not real high on the agenda.
I am pro-life in the sense that I would want women to carry their child to term and put it up for adoption. It would seem quite easy for all the rich white Republican audiophiles on this board who buy $150k stere systems to be for a program that say helps cover the costs of women to bring the child to term - you know food and maybe help them when their rich White American Boss fires her because she got pregnant. Maybe you know be a good Christian and HELP her cover some costs and then when the baby is born put up some money and maybe ADOPT the baby and raise it so it is not just born but actually lives.
Maybe instead of buying the $150,000 Mercedes you adopt a baby, save a life, and buy a Toyota Camry - and best of all the car will be FAR more reliable. But nah - just be angry and spiteful - definitely something Jesus would do.
I agree with you on about all of it. The one thing I would question is your remark that "science has put in place various standards and timelines". It seems to me it's more a case of interpretations or preconceived notions than using science to set a fixed point. It's my perception that the closer the anti-abortion faction gets to what they want the timeline moves closer to conception or before.
It sucks to get old. It really sucks to get old and bitter.
RGA, you and I actually agree on several points. I would say I fit in the 15 weeks timeline. It would give the expectant mother time to figure out what they want to do. I also think she should have a meeting with counsellors from both sides can be heard. Then in the 15 week timeline she can decide her choice. The money from these aborted babies is big business. And I think proven rape, incest or the mothers being in serious danger should be given strong attention, with it being the mothers decision. If you haven't noticed, I never bring religion into my posts. I don't know, but I think the Catholic Church has relaxed their stance on contraception. But i am not sure. But I strongly support their choice in their faith.
I am amazed how the Supreme Court has not even finalized their decision, although it looks like RvW will be overturned. But I don't see why turning it over to the individual states to decide is so attacked by the pro-lifers before a decision is made.
When RvW was decided in 1973, legal abortion was supposed to be rare. Sadly it has moved way beyond that and has now claimed the lives of 63 million. And your right, it has become birth control for too many women. If they don't want children they need to show responsibility to prevent it. I encourage birth control until the woman is ready to start a family.
As an old guy, I am concerned about these women will feel about their decision to abort their child. It's gotta be tough. I have seen young women, not really enthused about having a child, a year after giving birth their whole lives are dedicated to raising their child. My daughter had a close friend who was fond of 1 nighters. She had had 2 abortions and kept 1 baby. She got pregnant again, this time with twins (from 2 different men) and carried them to term and had a prebirth agreement with my daughters husbands gay brother and his husband. So it's 2 gay men raising 2 little girls. Anyway, it all seems to be working out pretty well. I don't know the particulars, but I think the men paid her for her babies. I wish all of them well. I see their little family 2-3 times a year and everyone seems to be doing fine. I'm not sure about the mother as I don't think she ever sees her little girls.
With all the free healthcare for welfare recipients, I would be surprised if a pregnant women wouldn't have access to Free OBGYN during her pregnancy. But that is something I have never researched. I had an older brother (RIP David) who had Medicare and Medicaid and he had several medical procedures and never got a bill for any of it.
"I am amazed how the Supreme Court has not even finalized their decision, although it looks like RvW will be overturned. But I don't see why turning it over to the individual states to decide is so attacked by the pro-lifers before a decision is made."
The problem with States is that there are FAR right-wing states who are saying they will jail an incest or rape victim if they get an abortion - terms I have seen are 99 years in jail. There are flat out racists US states and anti-gay states - people who think the confederate flag is good - you know retards. It would be totally okay if 100% of the voters in Alabama or Mississppi voted for these dimwits but in a lot of States and indeed the US as a whole - your voting is pretty close - 52% to 48%.
Ideally, you would create a political system that was not all or nothing - when Trump is in 100% of democrats hated his guts and was praying that he'd have a heart attack on one of those Big Macs. His supporters (fewer in numbers than democrats) were all very happy. Now the script is flipped -but it seems to be all about "owning the libs" even if it is not in one's best interest. Regardless, there is deep animosity from left to right.
I think the problem is that everyone on this board talking about this issue is a guy. We talk about things in more theoretical terms and how we might imagine it but it's not imagination for women. So while I would prefer all women take the fetus to term and put it up for adoption I get concerned about taking away personal freedom. The Catholic church is not for gay marriage - is that coming next? States are taking away reading or teaching about historical events.
The Philippines just elected Marcos - how the hell did that happen? Well, apparently for the past several years there were alterations to the school system where they were teaching people how good the Marcos family was and that Marshal law was positive on their society - and the people have been suckered and voted for a man who will rob them blind.
I think it all goes back to the notion that making a law won't solve this problem just as the war on drugs was a disguised racist policy to put blacks in jail. It looks tough and it was a nice show - but the fact is that a black man smoking crack gets real-time in jail and the rich white bankers doing Cocaine (the same drug in another form) got jack squat.
It's the same thing with abortion - rich white women will never have to worry about illegal abortions - they will ALWAYS get it. The poor black woman - can't afford the trip to a legal state or another country - so they will go underground with a coathanger.
"The problem with returning it to states is there are Far Right states that will jail incest and rape victims if they get an abortion"
And there are ultra liberal states that will kill the infant on demand even as at full term.
I DON'T AGREE with either of those extremes and will let my voice be heard to all that have ears. I have spent hours calling my State and Federal Representatives of the people. WE THE PEOPLE are in charge. They work for us and I'm not shy about reminding me of that. I hope you do the same.
I think both sides put the other party in a box of this is how all of the opposition thinks. Which is BS. There are racists in both parties, but I believe they are a very small minority of very stupid thinking.
I think we are actually much closer in opinion than the media and politicians want us to be. Would you agree?
The media is interested in eyeballs on the page so they tailor things to their audience. It was like Fox News presenting an anti-Covid don't be a sheep and get a vaccine story yet everyone working there got vaccinated. Hush-hush.
I don't bother with much video news.
I have a little saying - "If you're too far out on a wing, your plane will go in circles." The far-right is home to Hitler-loving nuts. The far left is in this crazy overly woke world that is in a sort of safe-space only world.
I have a different view of abortion because I took a wonderful Philosophy class on contemporary moral problems - and we had to write an essay on a topic - I chose abortion from a Pro-Choice position.
The professor made everyone in the class - reverse their positions - so the Christians taking the class who wanted to write a Pro-Life paper were forced to write their paper on Pro-Choice while I had to write my paper from a Pro-Life position.
The best way to THINK is to advocate for the opposition - lawyers do this and so do political operatives preparing for debates.
What is also great about Philosophy is it teaches people to make arguments from non-religious platforms so you had to argue Pro-Life without any arguments from religion or bibles etc. This also works for capital punishment.
Generally, universities are Liberal and thus against the death penalty - but the professor wanted a debate and I elected to take the pro-death penalty stance. Had I known I would be the ONLY person in the class to take this side - it was somewhat daunting.
But one can argue some semantics - hypotheticals like defence of others. So you see a man with an axe and he is about to hack a kid to death - at least from your vantage point - you have a clear shot - shoot him in the head or he looks to be about to kill the kid. You shoot.
You have decided to kill this man - even though up until that point this man has not actually engaged in any crime at all. You THINK he is going to kill the kid - maybe you were wrong - but "technically" you killed this man who has committed no crime. You acted to kill.
If we take it up one minute later and said man killed the kid and we arrest the man and decide we want to kill him as punishment - then we are actually killing a man who has committed and is guilty of a heinous crime.
It's not that I can necessarily "win" this argument but it's about wrestling with the ideas and then justifying the latter. Also, taking the matter from an overpopulated worldview that there are too many people - a lot of people die all the time in Construction Accidents, drownings etc - so feeding and spending resources on heinous killers maybe topic of the day news stories but is a waste of resources.
Sure I don't want innocent people getting the chair - And frankly, I get all the arguments why state capital punishment is wrong - there are many arguments least of all that it's not a deterrent - drug kingpins live daily with the fear of death - the death penalty is hardly a fear that puts him over the top to stop him from being a drug kingpin.
But - hey - why keep them locked up for decades? Make a trade - just like in Baseball- we'll send to Somalia a heinous killer and $1million and we get back a family of farmers who works hard and would love to come to North America (Canada or the USA) and be model citizens. Somalia gets a slave labourer and money to take this slime ball. We get to do right by some folks who just happened to be born on the wrong side of a border.
Your class warfare attitude and racism is showing again.
"rich white women". "poor black woman".
How about the rich Black woman and the poor White woman? Or the rich or poor Chinese woman?
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
I would tell you, but you wouldn't understand.But you are free to teach your kindergartener about sex if you want to, but leave my children out of that discussion. Parents can do that when they get older. School is for teaching how to read, write, math, science, history etc. Not that their daddy has 2 penis's. One for him to pee with and another for mommy to brush her teeth with.
Edits: 05/11/22
Can you show me what Kindergarten class teaches that - what is the book? Which school and which teacher?
I've read school curriculums and never saw one about "daddy has 2 penis's. One for him to pee with and another for mommy to brush her teeth with."
Or is it that you don't want a class taught there the are gay couples who have kids - some families have two mommies and some families have two daddies?
This is really what you don't like, isn't it? You want to invent an extreme example so that everyone will find that "sick" but what you really can't stand is that gay people are allowed to have children. You don't want to say that because people would know the truth about you.
Most countries have Public and Private schools - if you want your kids to be taught at a Catholic/Christian school you are free to place your kids in said schools. Then they can be taught that babies come from a stork if you like and that Christians rode on Dinosaurs like in The Flinstones.
Here in Hong Kong, there are many schools - Muslim schools, Catholic schools, Christian schools, Mormons and secular international schools from America, Canada, England and Australia - you choose where to put your kid.
You have FREEDOM to choose - if some other parents choose to put their kids in a secular school that teaches sex education why the hell do you care? You do want FREEDOM don't you - so if you don't like it put your kid in a school that teaches them what you want to be taught - you ALSO have the FREEDOM to HOME SCHOOL.
Instead of telling everyone else how to live their lives and what they can do and what they should do in the bedroom and what they should not do how about being a typical selfish me,me,me Republican and worry about your own family and leave everyone else the hell alone.
The daddy having 2 penises was a joke. Did you laugh a little?
As far as my opinion on people being gay? Read my long post to you just above this one. Then you will have your answer.
I will say I am very protective of children's protection against predators. When I was 11 I was physically/sexually attacked by a gay guy in college. It was at the YMCA (he worked there) and I was helping him keep score at a basketball game. At halftime he told me he would buy me a pop if I would go get it. I walked into the game room that was closed and dark, he snuck in behind me, grabbed me from behind and dragged me to the floor. He began molesting me. I got one arm free and was able to hit him in the nuts, I got free and began kicking him in the head and ran out the door. I never told anyone about it because I was so ashamed. I carried a lot of anger around for many years over that deal and when I got older I was on the lookout for him so I could kick his ass. I hated that fucker. I never did see him again. When I was 38 I talked for the first time to someone about what happened. From exposing my secret, I began to slowly heal from it and finally came to realize not all gay people are child predators. I still haven't seen the faggot that molested me, he's probably dead by now. But if I do ever see him, you can rest assured I'm going to kick his ass. I wonder how many other children he did this to? Anyway, that's my story.
Everyone comes to their views on issues from their past experiences and upbringing. Your story is a sad one - but at 11 if you were a girl and he raped you and made you pregnant would you have been able to hide that experience until you were 38?It seems from your above reply we are in agreement.
However there are some myths about pedophiles' sexual orientation:
"The distinction between a victim's gender and a perpetrator's sexual orientation is important because many child molesters don't really have an adult sexual orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual attractions focus on children - boys, girls, or children of both sexes.
As an expert panel of researchers convened by the National Academy of Sciences noted in a 1993 report: "The distinction between homosexual and heterosexual child molesters relies on the premise that male molesters of male victims are homosexual in orientation. Most molesters of boys do not report sexual interest in adult men, however.../...
many child molesters cannot be meaningfully described as homosexuals, heterosexuals, or bisexuals (in the usual sense of those terms) because they are not really capable of a relationship with an adult man or woman. Instead of gender, their sexual attractions are based primarily on age. These individuals - who are often characterized as fixated - are attracted to children, not to men or women."
https://lgbpsychology.org/html/facts_molestation.htmlThe reality is though that whatever a person's sexual proclivities are whether they be benign as having a foot fetish or a desire to tie women up in ropes (Shibari) or get peed on like the Donald (if true or not would not matter to me) it's doing what is right. If a person is born a pedophile then that person should still know it is wrong and seek help and not act on his impulse. Everyone has impulses - maybe we want to shoot our boss. If we're looking up guns on the internet it's time to see a shrink!
The problem is that who the hell would admit they have a problem? It's considered the lowest of the low. Here is a video on non-offending pedophiles - everything needs to be "preventative" you want to stop that guy from shooting up Sandy Hook before he does it - reactionary policing is usually more expensive and less effective to not effective at all.
If there were some sort of program in place maybe we can stop the guy from attacking you - even if we get half of them from stopping we win. As a teacher, I am for cameras in every classroom - why? Because people go into teaching to get close to kids - but if you have a camera watching then they will not be attracted to the field. If you are a good teacher doing your job you have no problem with people watching your class.
But this video is a preventative approach - it's the only way to actually STOP the crime from occurring.
And with Pedophiles - they are born that way and it shows up in an MRI as early as 8 weeks in gestation.
Edits: 05/12/22 05/12/22
Sexual predators come in all colors and sexual orientations. It's a human evil. Hetrosexual, homosexual makes no difference. There are evil deviants in all makes. And I am strongly against them all and they should be removed from society. I feel the same way about repeat criminals of violence. Remove them from society because they offer zero value and give on pain and fear.
And no, I don't and wouldn't support an 11 year old rape victim required to carry the child against her and her family's will. But I think many women will claim rape after 4 months of pregnancy to get an abortion, when she has really been giving it away like candy. We need more education to encourage all rapes to be reported to the police with personal ananimoty for the rape victim. It should feel like a safe thing to do.
Probably the only thing that saved me from my attacker was I grew up on a block with 21 boys and had 2 brothers much bigger than me. In other words, I grew up fighting as a way of life and became pretty good at it out of necessity. Thankfully I haven't had to do it for many years. But if it comes down to it, I'm game.
"When I was 11 I was physically/sexually attacked by a gay guy in college. It was at the YMCA "Thank you for sharing that sad experience with us.
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
Edits: 05/11/22 05/11/22
All the subjects you list are on the table already, teaching them that if the screw each other there might be babies being made isn't a bridge too far in my opinion. Especially since parents generally do NOT teach that. Especially the ones that would be most horrified shoudl it happen to their kids.
But, if you want your kids to not understand consequences of things, it's your lookout as a parent I guess.
====
"You are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you." ~ R A Wilson
What I said is its not the schools job to teach other people's children about sex especially in the K-3 grades. And there are a LOT of parents who feel that way.
Maybe the parents should have the talk. Having sex shouldn't be like giving away a piece of candy and having that loose attitude has consequences.
KUDOS to RGA
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