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In Reply to: RE: Lazy, lazy, Ghost. There are similarities and differences. If you think posted by tinear on December 16, 2021 at 11:02:18
What do you think of the amendment allowing for direct election of Senators?
I'll leave it to you to check out the previous method.....
Too much is never enough
Follow Ups:
can I answer? good ... it makes for a more representative government
the old way embodied too much of the 'old boys club' ways of doing things
the school of thought that the voters aren't educated enough to vote their own interests was a feature baked into the Constitution and the 17th Amendment sought further rectification of this concept, since it's a school of thought from a time of highly stratified social and educational status during the times in which the document was framed
with regards,
isn't the House Of Representatives enough for the people while treating the Senate as an American 'House Of Lords'?
Once the Freebies started, the 'educated voter' became a minority while voting for 'stuff' became the norm which persist to this day....
Too much is never enough
'voting for 'stuff''
it's as if you're saying that voters shouldn't expect any return on their investment as citizens & taxpayers. so what should we expect?
In an IDEAL State, the government should stick to its Constitutionally Mandated powers. the 9th and 10th Amendements would actually be respected.
Money NOT collected as taxes are retained, generally, by the people, who also generally, best use them......
States will than ALL vary in the amount collected, industry IN the state and what we call 'programs'. Other opportunities would also vary, including HEALTH system and Education.
Washington's farewell address had an admonishment to stay the heck OUT of most foreigh affairs. How's THAT working out?
People would than TEND to vote with their feet, going to places which MOST agree with their personal thoughts about how much government they want, need or desire.....with availablilty of work or constructive employ being near the top of any list.
return on Investment? the Government? In ONE thought? What ever gave ANYBODY such a wacky idea? Please see the brief video linked.......Milton Friedman talking about 'the 4 ways to spend money'....
There are TWO major philosophies on this issue.
1. Governemnt generates surplus money to itself THAN pushes services DOWN to the populace
2. Populace in some fashion demands services from the government. The 'pull down' part of the theory.
The St. Louis Fed has a wonderful article with this as the subject......But YOU are gonna have to look it up for yourself....
Too much is never enough
yeah, I heard you the first time, it's all broken and rigged because people vote for stuff and you've basically repeated that premise without closing the deal by making an argument to make a point or answer my question
I'll read it again tomorrow maybe I missed something ; )
VERY complicated problem.
Starts with modifications to the constitution and than ignorming the rest....or large parts thereof.
Did you listen to the Friedman vid? Just a couple minutes.
And of course, people vote for 'stuff'. Free this or that and by George, let's tax the RICH and while we're at it? Free College. Free Medical. All rights and few obligations.
All the while running up a debt in the Trillions....
the current system is an UNSUSTAINABLE MODEL.... the goal might be restated as a wish to Maximize Opportunity which improves the lot of most people. I reently saw an advert which resonated. In it? They said that ABILITY was pretty much evenly divided in the human race while Opportunity certainly Was Not.
Too much is never enough
ah ... there it is! your point = 'all rights and few obligations'
when citizens pay their taxes and participate in democracy they've met their obligations ... not just fed & state taxes, there's hundreds of taxes at point of sale, registrations, tolls, fees for this that and the other thing ... but citizens rights aren't 'pay as you go'
the Constitution states that there's inalienable rights elucidated therein
children are protected under the document despite nothing thrown into the kitty by them as a for instance, even if their guardians can't pony up
and yes it's a thorny issue because of this caveat
however, 'we the people' recognize certain intrinsic rights that are guaranteed by the Constitution and protected by 'the state' as defined from the local level to the federal level ... and only the state can remove those protections, and of equal importance, fine tune them in keeping with the 'spirit' of the Constitution, not just the literal written word ... and so recognizing it as a 'living' document that might need to evolve, amendments are provided for to accomplish this
of course there's a system in place to make those things happen
part of that system is electoral in nature requiring participation to work
which brings us back to my question: what expectations can the voter have by participating in that process and how can those be guaranteed?
without relitigating the particulars of what's in place now, how should it be? reviewing your posts you seem to be arguing that the system really should be 'pay as you go' without accounting for those disenfranchised by that very system ... doesn't this dial things back a few hundred years?
there may be [there are!] interest groups wagging the dog of the system and skewing it towards those special interests, but it's definitely not those with the most need of what it's supposed to be protecting
I did check your links and have seen the concepts committed to writing too
they're points along the circumference of a circular argument as far as answering the very basic question I tabled
in any event this thread is tiptoeing around civics as politics so I'll step off here and leave it be as food for thought, not a call out of anyone's particular viewpoints
best regards,
So? the ENTIRE social contract boils down to a financial transaction?
EVERY right has a corresponding obligation. I can't offhand thing of a right 'without limit'
You name it. Driving? Property ownership? Even firearms. All maybe to one extent or another an exerciseable right, but ALL have obligations, too......
My rights end at your nose....that sort of thing...
Is that a Civics Lesson? Just might be!
I'm NOT going to go over the rest of your post on a point-by-point basis, because it would be impossible for me in a reasonable length to put it all in order....
special interests alone deserve a serious conversation
Too much is never enough
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