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I saw one of the half dozen FIAT 500L sold in San Diego last couple years. Like sighting the Loch Ness Monster.....only Automotive!
But I DO wonder? How many DIFFERENT cars are needed? I don't know how to figure this out, but I know that the hundreds of models available are Too Many.
Quality could go UP if the number of models were somehow limited. Maybe 5 or 6 passanger car sizes. Include a pair of sports cars......a 'senior' and 'entry'....You'll need trucks. A small truck, like what the Toyota Tacoma once was. Than on UP to a major towing / working type. Extended chassis for a large Motorhome, maybe....A small / medium / large SUV for those with need.
Lady next door bought an ACADIA for herself, 2 daughters and 2 sons......and hubby, I guess. POS was in the shop for OVER a month after she had it for a couple weeks. The LOANER? A Honda CRV which she loved, but apparently didn't have the capacity for her brood.
This huge variety of autos / Trucks / SUVs is very wasteful.....
Too much is never enough
Follow Ups:
I would LOVE to see some kind of 'family tree' graphic showing the BIG relationships.
You guys are ALL Spot On with the Sharing Thing.
I remember a decade or MORE ago, when NISSAN MAXIMA began sharing some part with the Altima.
And Honda I think has a sharing thing with the Civic LINE (about 4 or 5 models across 2 makes) and the ACCORD.
My ELEMENT from a Decade + ago seems to have some Accord under the hood / including the than current 5 speed auto.....And I think the brake pads I bought are good for a LOT of cars Many not from the Honda family.....
Too much is never enough
My Honda Ridgeline and wife's Honda Pilot share almost everything. Same engine, transmission, seats, infotainment systems, gauges, and many body parts. Pretty much, the truck has an open bed, while the SUV is closed.
...there are way too many models/marques on the market. BUT, in reality, there are far fewer unique vehicle platforms now than ever. Major components, and even entire platforms are "shared"--not just within a given manufacturer/marque, but across brands, as well. Go buy a Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade. Go buy a BMW/Supra, or a "Subayota" 86/BRZ. Your new Aston-Martin has a M-B engine. Z-F builds trannies for both GM and Ferrari (and a dozen other manufacturers in-between). This stuff has been going-on for decades. GM finally ditched Oldsmobile, Pontiac and Saturn. Plymouth went away. So did Mercury. All were just redundant.
But it's hard to argue with "brand loyalty" in the marketplace--even though your "Buick" or "Lincoln" is rolling-off the same assembly-line as their "Chevy" or "Ford" counterparts.
Ultimately, there's only a handful of "umbrella-corporations/groups" that control/own the bulk of the global auto-manufacturing industry. Did Hyundai really need to become Kia/Hyundai/Genesis? Back in the day, if you loaded-up a Crown Vic, you had a Grand Marquis. If you loaded-up a Grand Marquis, you had a Town Car.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
I have big issues with how Most people measure quality.
It is NOT a product of inspection but rather initial build conditions, training, and perhaps 'method'.
QC as most view it is ultimatly NOT a value added activity, rather showing that you DID something wrong and not necessarily the way to improve future outcomes.
Too much is never enough
a bad idea, even if, or even especially if, it's more Subaru than Toyota.
I've heard of problems wiht that BOXER engine.......
But overall? Cool tech share between Subaru and Toyota.
Too much is never enough
just that most everyone I know with a Subaru is really happy with the engine. And the rest of the car for that matter.
Primarily on the 6-cylinder engine. The older models with timing belts were interference, so the belt HAD to be changed at the correct interval.
There have been some high profile recalls with Subaru engines, and the vehicles in general. One involved missing welds in the body structure; Subaru was replacing the entire car for that one.
Weak valve springs found their way into some of the 4-cylinder engines. Replacement required partial engine teardown. Another problem cropped up after the valve springs were replaced. Apparently the sealant for the timing cover was applied at the factory by robots, which did the job exactly right every time.
But the dealers replaced the valve springs and the human mechanics didn't do quite the precise job that the robots did and sealant got into the crankcase, blocked the oil pick up and the result was very bad indeed.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
interval."
Believe that's an issue with 'Dark's' Testa Rosa. :-)
And they gotta drop the engine to do it?
Just another reason for EV's, I would guess?
OK, fire extinguisher at the ready, but I'm all in.
Even the air in the tires on a Ferrari costs more than I paid for my car.
Ever checked out the Kandi K27? Smaller than the Leaf. The range is only 65 miles but what the hell. You drive it five miles to work, five miles home, plug it in overnight. People already do that stuff with phones, etc. What's the big deal?
And if anybody balks at the Kandi because it's made in China, well I got news for them. The Mustang Mach-E is made in China also.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
...and most/all mid-engine cars require engine-out service at specific intervals, because the engine/transaxle is designed to drop-out of the bottom in one piece, rather than be pulled from the top piece by piece.
And the service-intervals are no "worse" than any other car, mine were just done prior to me buying them due to age, not wear and tear or mileage. But because of the expense of doing it, you do it ALL--belts, hoses, gaskets, seals, plugs, wires, clutch, etc. The labor is the killer (not the parts), so buy the frickin' parts and it's ALL DONE. "Fix" ONE thing and then EAT the whole labor cost again 6 months later when something else needs to be addressed?--STOOPID!
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
did the engine out service--the engine was designed to be easy to remove, not a whole hell of a lot different from an old air-cooled VW Bug, and replaced the instrument panel parts that get all gummy after a few year of exposure to sunlight.
BTW, I paid extra for nitrogen. Once.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
...less expansion/contraction (pressure variation) with heat and cold. I tend to drive these hard from time to time (and on the track) so it does make a difference.
I'm currently at my uncle's house up North of you. His--apparently now mine--Viper is sitting in the garage. Hating this entire "discovery-process". He was a pretty private person, so there are new "discoveries" at every turn--some shit that I didn't even know existed-- like my grandparents' birth certificates from Lithuania with their original (pre-Americanized names). So far, I've found over 150 firearms, and ~$120K in cash (not counting the almost $3K he had in his wallet when they shipped him to Presby). Funeral is Monday, and I've gotta return home for a minute, but this is going to take months to sort-out.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
Not surprising since Daimler owns 20% of A-M and the AMG-Mercedes-Petronas-Motorsport team a further 5%.
A-Ms current CEO worked at Daimler for 26 years.
And Bentley has a VW engine!
That stinks!
But it sure is cheap and efficient for VW!
Keep Your Hands Clean,
John K
Bespoke engines are way beyond the means of small manufacturers these days.
Pagani uses M-B motors, McLaren road cars one originally developed by Nissan (the F1 used a BMW V12), the Lamborghini V10 first saw the light of day in an Audi etc.
Probably the first great example of badge engineering.
Falcon, Comet, Mustang, Fairlane, Meteor, Montego, Torino, Maverick, Granada, Monarch, Lincoln Versailles all built on the Falcon platform.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
My father bought just about every variation. He had a 260 Falcon, a 390 Montego and the first car I ever bought was the end of the line - his 1975 Torino 351.
...I don't even try to keep-up any more. Chrysler (and whatever iteration thereof) sold a K-platform EVERYTHING. GM had an X-car and J-car sold under EVERY marque.
For a while there (IIRC, the early-mid 2000's) a lot of GM cars (across all brands) were getting a little square "GM" badge on them. I (mistakenly) thought that maybe they were "getting smart" and going to eliminate all the different marques, and just re-badge themselves as just "GM". Everything they were selling (at the time) were all the same, anyways.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
Mopars were badge-engineered even before the second world war.
But GM...that's another story. GM really didn't start to adopt full badge engineering until the Chevy 305 and 350 became the corporate engines.
For example...in 1961, Fords and Mercuries were the same car. The Mercury was a little bit longer, but that's it. Same engines, same transmission.
At Chrysler, almost the same story except the Imperial still rode on separate frame.
But at GM, all five divisions used their own engines. Even the 215 aluminum V8 developed by Buick, the Olds version had more head bolts than the Buick version.
If you wanted an automatic transmission in a Chevrolet, you could choose between two Powerglides or the Turboglide, unless you wanted a truck with an automatic in which case you got an old version the Hydra-Matic.
Long wheelbase Pontiacs got the Hydramatic, short wheelbase models (Catalina and Grand Prix) got the Roto-Hydramatic shared with Oldsmobile and the only automatic available on an Olds. Roto-Hydramatic and Hydramatic were totally different trannies.
Buick still used Dynaflow in the full size cars. The Special had Dual Path Turbine Drive, which was a conventional step-gear two speed similar but not the same as Powerglide.
Finally, Cadillac had Hydramatic only.
Chassis were different also. Front end parts from a Pontiac wouldn't work on a Chevrolet or an Olds. My '74 Chevy needed an idler arm and the parts store only had one in stock for a Pontiac. Had to wait a day to get the correct part.
You couldn't keep track without a scorecard.
Even as late as 1973, you could still buy a Chevy with Powerglide, and there was even an economy version of Powerglide that was manually shifted from low to high.
Real badge engineering at GM didn't happen until Roger Smith took over as CEO and he essentially destroyed GM. It's never been the same.
By the Aughts, GM was just building platforms that were sold all over the world. My Cobalt was a Vauxhall Astra in England, Opel Astra in Germany. Some of the Cadillacs were SAABs under the skin.
BTW, there was a SAAB wagon that was nothing more than a rebadged Subaru with different front sheet metal.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Because they don't make them anymore, nor De Soto's
And others are leaving as well.
Everyone seems to want a mini SUV of some kind so...
Get ready for the new 4 wheel drive SmartCar SUV, likely an E-SmartCar SUV with 200 miles range per charge.
Car makers have been up-sizing and filling in below for a while. Got passed in town by a Toyota RAV-4 and it's now a large SUV, at least from my perspective.
Even Prius couldn't hold back and built the Prius-V (2012-2017). Almost bought one when we bought ours but thankfully held back.
My original '84 or was it '86 Honda Accord had a 96" wheelbase.
I think the current CIVIC is larger!
I know the ACCORD grew substantially in wheelbase and weight.....
Too much is never enough
...I'll 100% agree that small/compact vehicles have gotten progressively bigger (a new Civic IS much larger than old Accord), but I don't seem to see as much "back-filling" with new/smaller models. In fact, many of the smaller models are rapidly disappearing (from the US market).
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
and the Corolla is now the smallest IC car in the line as the Yaris is GONE.
Nissan carries on with the Altima (prior shit-box) now being a full sized car and the Sentra filling in under it now the Versa below it, the Versa being the only sub-20,000 entry of the Japanese big three (Honda, Toyota and Nissan)?
USA only.
In Europe the Yaris is still around as well as the Aygo which is smaller still.
Thinking that was Dark's point.
But then, gas is cheaper in the US than many countries, especially Europe.
But he is also right that compact cars have become progressively larger.
The current VW Polo is a fair bit bigger than the Mk1 version of it's big brother the Golf/Rabbit. It has grown so much over time VW introduced the Lupo/Fox/Up to fill the gap in the market originally occupied by the Polo.
GM jacked the Spark up a couple of inches, added black plastic cladding around the wheel openings and along the rocker panels, added more cladding front and rear to simulate bash shields.
GM calls it the "Spark Activ." Sells at a 30% premium over the regular Spark.
The package actually makes the vehicle worse than the regular Spark. The increased ride height does nothing for the handling or the aerodynamics.
But I've already seen two of them on the road.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
that is ultimately the future. Build all components on demand and recycle the old.
Use common EV power trains underneath.
and solid state batteries will be malleable, allowing molding into frame/body.
Edits: 11/25/21
Governments can make a show of mandating EVs but it's the manufacturers who want them. Easier to package, cheaper to produce.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
If Tesla wasn't able to sell more cars than they can produce without a bit of advertising the industry may never have budged. With Tesla plants about to open in Texas and Germany to meet demand the handwriting is on the wall.
I look forward to the day I can afford an EV, regardless the manufacturer.
I don't mean the electric car market, I mean the TOTAL car market. That's what Cathie Wood says. And who's Cathie Wood, you ask? The only one who correctly predicted where the Tesla stock price would be in 2021 (well, aside from Ms. CfL - but Ms. CfL didn't go on TV and risk her reputation like Cathie did!).
View YouTube Video
I'll have to agree with Ghost on this one--they WERE, but not so much now.
With gov't mandates for EV (or other "alternate energy"--like hydrogen) adoption looming, everyone HAS to get on-board or risk perishing. Honda management was very reluctant to enter the game, and are now 4-5 years behind their competitors--so much so, that they are partnering with GM (of all companies) to share EV platforms, as a means of catching-up.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
and probably VW's also. Both platforms can be easily stretched and shrunk to fit any kind of vehicle. The VW has a motor at each driven wheel, so it's possible to build all of the vehicles with motor at all four wheels and make AWD available only via OTA subscription.
The savings in production costs have to be enormous.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Probably waiting for one another to take the first plunge.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
quiet, super fast EVs and charging becomes fully practical in the near future.
Enjoy your Cobalt!
A good car is a good car, don't care if it's driven by electrons, fossil fuels, or cow farts.
Have you seen pictures of GM's EV platform, the one that Honda will be using? You could build any kind of car on that platform, from a Chevy Spark to a Hummer. So why not build them that way? My only hope is that the money saved by rationalizing production will be passed on to the consumer.
I don't think the charging issue is a dire as some folks make it out to be. Don't EVs have the capability of gaining 70 or 100 miles of additional range after just a few minutes on a charger? Might take a couple hours for a full charge, just a few minutes of charge to get you home.
BTW, just had the Cobalt inspected last week. After 15 Pittsburgh winters, it's rust free.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Have no idea what Nissan used as the base platform though.Doors close with a proper 'thud', no creaks or vibration and not much road noise, which one should notice in a quiet EV. I've rented Nissan Altimas in past years not as well made. Perhaps the Japanese (and most car makers) have upped their game in the past decade or so?
And perhaps car manufacturers take more care in the engineering and production of their introduction of 'electrified' vehicles? Our 2011 Prius was still made in Japan and was a step above what one would expect for a cheaper Japanese branded hatchback who's size it shared. Not Lexus level, but close, and not a hiccup in 108,000 miles.
Edits: 11/25/21
...they are fewer cars than you think. And probably fewer models, too, compared to the past. Take the Honda Civic for example, or the Accord. Used to be the Accord was sold as a sedan, hatchback, coupe, and wagon. Same with the Camry. Not any more. Now it's Camry sedan and the SUV version of the Camry (RAV4 and Highlander).
Car makers generally use just a few platforms that can be scaled up and down as needed.
Like that Fiat 500L you saw. Under skin, same vehicle as the Jeep Renegade. The stretched and widened version serves as the Jeep Compass and Jeep Cherokee.
Toyota's New Global Architecture is like Leggo. You want to turn a Camry into a RAV4? Unplug some Camry bits here and there, plug in some RAV4 bits here and there, Bob's your uncle.
The Porsche Cayenne, Bentley Bentayga, Lamborghini Urus, VW Atlas, and the big Audi SUVs are the same car with different outer sheet metal. The Lambo might be the only one not built in VW's big Slovakian plant.
Car makers want to rationalize production so that all the engineering, the stuff consumers don't see on the surface, is shared from vehicle to vehicle.
It's why they love EVs. There are far fewer packaging issues with an EV and you can make the body of the car look like anything from a sports coupe to a waddling three-row SUV.
Eventually, all cars are going to be made in the same far Eastern factories, and shipped to their respective markets where brand name will go on. And consumers will be none the wiser.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 11/25/21
THAT'S the example I was looking for.
The FIAT? Can hardly GIVE 'em away.
Jeep versions seem to sell......In numbers outstripping ANY rational sense of quality.
Too much is never enough
Excellent, and shared drive trains and components. Henry Ford knew what he was doing with automobile design and manufacturing, other things not so much.
Let the extermination begin, happy Thanksgiving.
OK. Here are the sedans sorted out.
Next?
What, pickups?
Keep Your Hands Clean,
John K
I visited ON TOUR the car import area of the Port Of San Diego.
ACRES of cars....and over here? Half a dozen Lambos or whatever.......And I had instructions NOT to photograph Audi or maybe it was VW?
'indoors' was where prep / pre ship was done, like adding certain accessories and documenting any shipping damage.
A well-orchestrated operation.
Too much is never enough
Cars are sharing global platforms - I'd like to see a day where you can design your own car on the platform and have it exactly your way - they can then put your design into the cutter and boom you have your very own Homer Simpson mobile.
Indeed, with technology this has to be coming - you can make yourself into an action figure so why not a car? I mean we're almost there - you can go to websites and build your car these days - but perhaps down the line we can get more to the way we want it.
Thanks
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