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1.36.2.22
A really interesting discussion with a Former Ford expert
skip the preamble and advertising and start at 3:30. It's an interesting take on when the Chinese start selling in the States that the States will be unable to say no.
Follow Ups:
. . . a few of the upcoming new Chinese EV's could be priced SO low that, if they're eligible for rebates, they could be almost free! Therefore, the car could be bought from China, then the US government could step in to give the buyer a rebate which could cover almost cover the entire purchase price! So we could cut out the middle man (the buyer) and just send the rebate checks directly to China! Now THAT would be interesting (as well as ironic!)! ;-)
save your money for your Uncle Vlad's steampunkmobile powered by actual steam!
it's trickle down tech from their coal burner aircraft carriers
just think of the pride in ownership you'd enjoy!
china is already here...
Top12 bestselling car brands in China (largest first):
VW, Toyota, Changan, Honda, Geely, Nissan, Haval, Buick, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Wuling.
Besides having 4 brands in the Top12 bestsellers German manufacturers also bought chunks of Chinese car makers, started joint ventures with them or both.
In fact, GM makes one of the most popular small EVs in China via its joint venture with one of the Chinese car companies.
I don't see what the big deal is. Baseball, hotdogs, apple pie, and Chevrolet is notion every bit as obsolete as the dial-up internet connection.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 11/20/21
That includes cars. And why should they? Car companies aren't loyal to countries, they're multinational entities that manufacture and sell their products all over the world. Most of the GM cars sold in the US aren't made in the US, for example. Car makers sure as hell aren't loyal to consumers, either.
Car makers have headquarters all over the world, too, and design and research centers.
Why should anybody care where a car is made or who makes it?
The average out the door price of a new car in the US is now $42,000. Average monthly payment is $600. The total debt owed by US consumers for their auto loans is greater than the GDP of Australia.
Legacy car manufacturers are content to build fewer cars and sell them for more money. Toyota reported record profits for the third quarter despite a 40% cut in production of all vehicles except trucks.
There's an opportunity for an enterprising car maker to sell vehicles to car buyers who've been abandoned by the manufacturers. As long as the car is good, why should anybody give two shits where it was built?
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 11/20/21
Thanks for the laugh. Manufacturers don't "abandon" new car buyers--emphasis added to BUYERS. If everyone WANTED and BOUGHT what you think a car should be, they'd still be building and selling them. If you (and 50,000 of your like-minded cohorts) actually bought a new Focus or Fiesta every 2-4 years, they'd still be here. But if that pathetic little manual-tranny Focus sits on the lot for 9 months while people are on waiting lists for an F-150 or Explorer--what do you think I'll be building/selling? Products (all products) come and go. If they SELL, they tend to stick around. If they don't, they go away.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
They're in business to make money. They can make more money by selling fewer cars at higher profit margins.
And they're doing it. Toyota reported record profits for the third quarter despite a 40% reduction cut across the board except for trucks. Toyota isn't alone.
The car manufacturers don't care about buyers at the bottom end of the market. They don't need us, they don't care what we drive.
It isn't Toyota's job to provide mass transit, and it isn't my job to swamp myself with debt in order to reward car company executives. The Ford Focus actually sold very well until 2017 which was the final year it was available in the US. Sold better than the EcoSport that replaced it, but of course Ford made more money on each EcoSport than it did on each Focus.
Fools who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. What's happening now happened in a similar fashion 50 years ago. "Let the Japanese have the bottom end of the market." How'd that work out for GM and Ford?
The day the Chinese enter this market and kick the legacies asses by marketing small, reasonably-priced cars that people want, I'll celebrate.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 11/20/21
Toyota is doing ok globally. In the 2021 fiscal year they produced 9.4 million vehicles, 250k more than in 2020.
They don't make any money on cars that don't sell. If you buy them, they will build them--if you don't, they won't. That's how the retail marketplace works. Supply and demand--no demand, shut-down the supply.
You can still buy an econo-shit-box (they ALL sell them globally), but the importation costs would be as much as the cost of the car.
The Focus was a good little car--up until 2010 when they changed the tranny--and then ran with it for a decade--knowing what a flawed POS it was. BTW--Nissan just rolled-out the new Pathfinder--and dropped the CVT for a conventional automatic--trying to salvage the brand.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
They can push volume or they can push profit. They're choosing to push profit. Mary Barra said as much. To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, if they can make the most money by selling a lot of cheap cars, they'd do it. If they can make the most money by selling no cars, they'll do it. If they can make the most money by selling fewer cars at higher prices, they'll do that.
They're all making money like they owned a mint. Building fewer cars means closing factories and laying off workers. Keeps Wall Street happy, that's all a car company exec cares about.
Which is fine as far as it goes, but it means fewer and fewer people can afford a new car. And every car they don't build now is one less used car down the road. Stellantis was short 600,000 vehicles worldwide in the third quarter. That's 600K fewer used cars next year, and the year after and the year after. Used cars are something the manufacturers would rather didn't exist.
BTW, I just had my car inspected this week. Drove a whopping 6300 miles since last inspection. Most years, it's less than 5K.
By your logic, I should take a perfectly good, rust free, mechanically-sound car, a car that's fun to drive, gets reasonable gas mileage, is easy to service, and even looks good...
Trade that car for a new car, then 2 years later when I still owe money on a car that has just 12,000 miles on it, trade that car in on another car just to send a message to corporate bean-counters ? On what level does that make even a lick of intelligent sense?
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 11/20/21
Most people drive the 10-15K annually. Most people want a new(er) car in their driveway/garage. I don't rack-up a bunch of miles on any particular vehicle either, because I drive multiple vehicles, but when the warranties run-out on the truck and Suburban, I'll probably buy new ones. Don't know what I'll do with the Tesla.
But you incessantly bitch about "your kind of car" going away. Maybe if you bought one (or several over the years), they would still be offered. Prices--talk to your union brothers. I'd close plants too, if I had to pay those wages and bennies--and then you defend the flaws, because the robots do all the assembly--WTF do the workers do?
Enjoy your car and drive it 'til one of you drops. BTW--a Cobalt SS with a sunroof and all the gizmos is far from a base/strippo model. It's not on-par with a new 2021 vehicle, but it was pretty close to TOTL for that model/year.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
You have the money to do that kind of thing, most other people don't. I don't. Even if I drove 15K a year, wanting a new car in the driveway isn't enough to justify increasing amounts of debt. My ex-wife and I played that game and it's one of the big reasons why we were always flat ass broke.
You can't blame unions either. None of the Japanese, Korean, or German factories in the US use union labor. Most of the cars GM sells in the US, including its $50K pickup trucks, are made offshore by non-union labor. Same with Ford and Stellantis. That savings isn't getting passed along either, not that I can see.
I'm not bitching about "my kind of car" because I like stick shifts and I understand why they aren't made anymore. The problem is this: The average price of a new car has far outstripped inflation over the last ten years. The average monthly payment amount has increased by 25% over that same period of time.
The United States is a country that was re-engineered 65 years ago in a way that just about forces people to own cars. Now we're in a situation where a car is becoming a luxury item. Fewer and fewer people will be able to handle the financial burden of car ownership. Not just new cars but any car, since the average used car price is now just a few tick short of $30K.
The car makers don't care about any of this, as long as profits are up. They've left the door wide open for Chinese carmakers to come in here and kick their asses, just like the Big Three did with the Japanese in the late-1960's.
And I'm all for it.
BTW, if my car was any rust free, mechanically sound vehicle, I'd keep it. A car is just an appliance. All it has to do is get the job done.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
I've brought this up in other discussions of "poverty", "investments", and "wealth".
PRIORITIES--that's it, in one word. I have "nice things", now. It wasn't always that way--not even close. You're not broke or struggling, either. Look around--how many "things" do you have that you don't need (or even want). It's not always the amount of money, just how it's spent.
New car (potentially a car payment), or some new albums and some biking gear? Rolex or Timex? Hanes, FOTL, or Calvin Klein, Tommy John? Take-out or dine-out, or whatever is on sale at Giant Eagle this week? If I quit drinking and smoking cigarettes/cigars, I could save ~$200/wk.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
But that's the only side effect. Not bad.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Slow Joe is formulating a 12,000$ "rebate" program for US built (only!) Electric vehicles.
Even Chinese Slave labor will have a hard time undercutting that.
'US built (only!) Electric vehicles'
he had better mean assembled or it's a swing and a miss!
if so I might have some bucks coming ...
'US built (only!) Electric vehicles'
Biden's plan may be also be seen as "state-run protectionism" which is what it is. Such a program isn't very "capitalist" which is all about survival of the fittest and competition. A Rebate from the government has to be paid for by taxpayers - the folks who don't believe Climate Change is real (most Trump supporters) so how happy will they be that that $12,000 is coming out of their wallets - the car company is still getting that $12,000! They are being SUBSIDIZED (you know socialism for corporations) by the guys buying gas-guzzling Hummers. All in order to PROTECT car manufacturers who are no longer "competitive" anymore.It's funny that capitalism is always championed up until the moment the US starts losing at their own game - gotta bail out the banks, bail out the US auto industry, gotta bail out the farmers - always rely on Socialism when the US is in trouble and just call it something else like an emergency bailout. Socialism for the rich, rugged capitalism for everyone else.
Worse than that - everyone else in the world recognizes the hypocrisy so it's tough to take it seriously when some loudmouth blasts a Chinese company for being state-owned because the company is subsidized by their government when the USA does exactly the same thing.
I don't really blame the US government - they need to protect their workers' jobs - workers who vote.
...taxpayers helping the affluent buy expensive cars.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
There are many reasons why EV rebates for the rich is a stupid idea. As a thoughtful person, I'm curious what you think about Dr. Curry's perspective.
-Rod
She really lost me here.....
"""Theme 2: Is relentless consumption and growth to blame for our current predicament?
I'm not sure what our current predicament actually is, other than the one manufactured by the global politics surrounding climate change. More prosperous societies overall have a smaller impact on their environment than countries that engage in whole-scale exploitation of their environment just to survive."" "
Keep Your Hands Clean,
John K
Laughing...
Yo timie, it's amusing but I did a search and couldn't find one of your posts talking about all the trillions and trillions of tax dollars spent on unnecessary wars and mass murder. Why is that?
"Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. "S'chn T'gai Spock --- "Or the one"
James T. Kirk
Are you referring to Xi'Dumb funding radical terrorists with $85 BILLION in military grade weaponry so it can start yet another war(s) ?
If so, I did condemn that here only to have those posts censored/deleted soon to be followed by some people here posting that was Xi'Dumb's #1 "achievement". Certainly an achievement for the enemies of the USA, but not an achievement for the USA.
The climate has been changing since the dawn of time. Climate alarmist just discovered they could fleece the world and cash in on it, BIGLY.
Firstly, Greta is not a scientist isn't really an argument - no one says she is. She is an activist. A pretty big distinction. But that's ok - you follow what you're good at so if the dweeby zero personality scientist too shy to speak in public does what they're good at - the science.Now one of the mistakes that is continually made on this forum is to hold up a small minority of scientists who have been DEBUNKED numerous times by the vast majority of the scientific community - it doesn't matter if they got a PhD in science or hold powerful positions - especially without knowing how they got their position.
What matters is the science, and Judith Curry is one of the most debunked "scientists" in all of science. It's baffling to me why if 99.9% of the world's scientists say the earth is round - people will latch onto the 3 people calling it flat and then THROW OUT the 99.9% And that is precisely what you are doing when you latch onto the odd crazy.
Whenever you see that "one nut" touted on a Facebook meme look them up to see how they are held in scientific circles.
I am not a Climate scientist and neither are you and neither is Greta - smart people go with the majority of the scientific community because "buying off thousands of scientists" is a silly conspiracy - buying off one or two is probably not. So if one is to be a conspiracy theorist - it would make more sense that they (whoever they are) bought off one scientist than the 99.9% percent all around the world.
The earth is round. Climate Change isn't a hoax.
The reason people believe in these one-off scientists is a hubris belief system where they want to be right where everyone else is wrong. I know the "truth" and it's everyone else who is a blind sucker. No different than the people coming to my door with the truth about the afterlife.
https://skepticalscience.com/Judith_Curry_arg.htmAll the CC myths debunked with evidence and explanations
https://skepticalscience.com/argument.phphttps://archive.thinkprogress.org/judith-curry-abandons-science-e13059a66c99/
https://www.city-journal.org/global-warming
A published article does not mean the article is correct - something folks here seem to not understand.
And Curry was specifically debunked here
" Next, Curry invited Tol to submit a detailed critique of the two papers that she had highlighted. He obliged. On that thread, Steven Mosher congratulates Tol for an
...incisive demolition of these two papers. I note the absence of any credible defense of the papers and a high incidence of topic changing.. look at the sunshine.. for example. A bad paper neatly dispatched as you did is a good teaching tool. However, some won't learn and they use the bad paper as an occasion to thread jack.." https://www.discovermagazine.com/environment/is-judith-curry-peddling-disinformation
Again when the majority of science and all of the major scientific "bodies" back something that something tends to be true.
Lastly, use logic and consider these two points:
Point 1: Consider that the only reason folks hold up Judith Curry's opinion to be TRUE is that she has scientific credentials. She is right because she is a scientist.
Point2: If you hold 1 to be true why are you throwing out the 99% of even MORE qualified more renowned scientists who say the opposite? surely if Science credentials were key then why hold to one - unless there is some other motivation beyond science.
There are some scientists with Biology degrees who are creationists. They deliberately got PhDs in Biology in order to hold the credential and then claim creationism is real not Darwin. And those guys have been debunked as cranks. It's not like statistics or measurements can't be used with nefarious ends - but it's far more difficult to bribe higher numbers of people. Big Tobacco had a few scientists under their control - it took 50 years but these guys were found out (incidentally the same scientists claiming MMCC is a hoax).
Read the Book or see the film (as they have all the cited sources in their credits called Merchants of Doubt where they actually possess the papers by the scientists working at the big gas companies who on paper found they were causing Climate change - stone-cold evidence. And their engineers even began doing the right thing to try and combat it - but once it was too expensive - they dropped it. Documentary evidence of it. It's cheaper to spin and buy off some scientists than it is to fix the problem.
Not much different than the Ford Pinto - cheaper to pay off lawsuits than fix the gas tanks.
Edits: 11/19/21
Yes, I read it and it's always a bit of a red flag when they are constantly bolding words. There are too many moving targets. She has been debunked regarding her scientific competency so why is she on any panel discussing a damn thing? You should have actual competent high-quality scientists not second-rate bums and cranks on panels.As for the actual content about governments' lack of action and rather dopey solutions - yes I agree and so do many climate scientists. Electric Cars aren't going to save us. I mean I won't be here to care and I suspect most of those in powers aren't that interested in 2100.
Still - when it comes to science which is different from political blabber - I'd skip the memes and go to the majority science - not the cranks.
Edits: 11/19/21
. . . but it was buried inside of a larger thread. The gist of it is that perhaps there's more hope for us than there seems to be right now, even if governments don't do what they should:
View YouTube Video
A larger selection of videos from this source:
Thanks for that - I am generally a pessimist - I always expect the worst so that when it happens I am not disappointed and if something rises above my expectations then I feel joy - thus I feel like a very happy-go-lucky pessimist.
Thanks for the link. My view somewhat mirrors George Carlin who notes that the planet will go on just fine without the human race. I combine Carlin's stand up routine on saving the planet with Carl Sagan's Blue dot. to keep things in perspective.
George for a laugh and to keep me in check. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c
I get hot under the collar when bad guys go free but after I cool down I take solace in the notion that in the greater scheme of things it matters not - all the bad guys are gonna die. Sooner or later.
Perhaps it's because Carl has a great vocal quality or the poetry of the Pale Blue Dot.
I don't believe the article would claim that climate change isn't real at all. Rather that the totality of the models is complex.
The hoax is that the policy makers won't solve the problem and conventional thinking does not consider the environmental impacts and costs which will have adverse economic impacts and have little or worse adverse effects..
Did you actually read the article?
-Rod
The holy financial industry will deliver a climate change policy because they all saw the light and from now on will serve the public interest.
Indeed.
If you 'follow the money' you'll find that 'the money' is desperate to discredit climate change as it is heavily invested in fossil fuels and loses badly from a shift to renewables.
if only we could trust in what is being fed to everyone there might be some kind of progress on this subject. Please don't wet you panties anyone, I do believe that the earth has a history of climate change and we are in a period of a warming aspect. It brings with it assorted reactions of 'change' here on earth. And population and CO2 have an effect on this. The "science" is far from a Science when it comes from politicians and scientists whose motives are in question, any question.
Using it for political and monetary advantages is a problem right now. It's out of any kind of definitive control. Look at Al Gore years ago making it a movement. I have movements every day.
"Look at Al Gore years ago making it a movement."
Al Gore should've been put into a lockbox. ;)
I remember him calling people names - "flat earthers", "deniers", etc. back about 20 years ago. That same tactic has been used by the unwitting disciples among the populace who buy into the "models" and "projections" hook, line and sinker - if you can't win the argument based on science, just start name-calling.
Speaking of science, where is it? All I see and hear are models, projections, and scare tactics. Where is the science which unequivocally states that the Earth has warmed X degrees over the past hundred years and that Y amount of it was due to nature. I'd be very interested in reading that.
I'm also very interested in knowing what companies will benefit from taxpayer money being spent as part of the gigantic "infrastructure" and "make America great again" legislation. Exactly what companies will benefit from that? And, are they donors to the Democrat Party and/or to Joe Biden and/or Kamala Harris and/or to other politicians? Obviously, all of us want to know the answers to those and other questions.
****
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