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172.250.228.18
11 Marines, 1 soldier, 1 Navy corpsman.
Follow Ups:
and his cronies. And the idea that a Trump Administration would've done this any better is ludicrous and laughable. It took guts for Biden to go ahead and get this, with all of the attendant risks, over with, guts that Trump never had.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
For not getting his warning about the military/Industrial complex out sooner and stronger.
EVERY politician mentioned in this thread is equally guilty for the horrors in Afghanistan
THE PAST TWENTY YEARS.
They were ALL involved is some capacity and they should ALL be ashamed.
But they will continue to hold power, continue to hold office and continue to get re-elected
(of have their chosen replacement get elected).
Meanwhile we'll all just bitch and moan for a period of time about this and move on.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
NO matter how bad the actions, it was un-American to voice any objections, whatsoever.
So, yeah, it's bad leadership, but they did what few were objecting to.
'It began with Vietnam'
but there's the meme / narrative that returning vets were being spit on and vilified as war criminal baby killers getting in the way of your analysis
though I never saw anything like that except some burnt flags and isolated incidents at war protests magnified by breathless media coverage
so ... are you sure?
Al Gore allowed his close campaign aids control over how much support was allowed coming from the Clinton administration.
Most of this support, where it was offered, was blocked because the Gore campaign aids were jockeying for jobs in what they hoped would be the Gore White House and they didn't want any competition from the better qualified Clinton folks. They did everything in their power to separate the Gore campaign from anything that looked, smelled or tasted of Clinton.
There were areas in the country where, for all of his flaws, Clinton was still loved. Had he been more welcome in the Gore campaign, the close election might have gone the other way.
And with the Clinton folks still helping out after the election with the national security transition, one could also imagine tha opportunities for the likes of Osama Bin Laden might have been far fewer.
No 9/11, no Afghan invasion, no Iraqi invasion, and so on.
Al Gore's fault!
ah, you're probably a fan of 'The Man In The High Tower' aren't you
my take away was that the Gore campaign wanted distance simply because of the cloud of scandal over Clinton whether or not it was manufactured
I say 'manufactured' just in case you 'go there'
though I think that you've got the basic dynamics correct except for the extrapolation
regards,
Her campaign was reluctant to use White House resources, including Obama, and went the own way for fear that those resources would expect reward in the following administration.
Just the way things work. But it seems odd that the candidates themselves, who have the most to lose, can't recognize this until after they have lost the election.
Maybe they just believe with too much certainty that the will win and so don't pay it much mind.
I also read it that way to an extent
along with an attempted 'political emancipation' of the female candidate
it seems that all women in politics arrive at that juncture doesn't it?
I mean, amongst 'liberal' players anyway
if there's any 'certainty' involved it's misplaced
because there's no 'base' there to rely on yet
bad calculations coalescing from bad assumptions
not exactly ineptitude but close enough
regards,
I don't know what their problem is, but their lack of cohesion has cost them repeatedly.
there's too much democracy in the party for mismanagement to work
; )
From a near duplicate situation. Queensbury rules not in effect; more like MMA.
Further evacs will be piecemeal with cooperation with the new government, and with less uncontrolled panic-driven mayhem.
Time to find us a new bad guy to keep the money train rolling. You might want to start advising your grandkids to find a different line of work before they too get sucked into the hole.
Armchair quarterbacks are in a lucky position.
Including children.
Way to go.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Or, no, it is attributed to an American economist.
Isn't THAT perfect!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
How many would have died if that drone strike was not done? I'm guessing there wasn't much time to make a decision.Short of blowing up the deal Trump signed and putting more troops in Afghanistan (yet again) I don't see how a chaotic exit could have been avoided. IMO the military spent damn near 20 years lying to us a la Vietnam. Though the manner of our exit sucks - especially for Afghans - I'm glad Biden is getting us out post haste. Its been a rotten unwinnable war from the git and all the raps from the military commanders during the war and right up to the present are painfully reminiscent of their bullshit regarding Vietnam.
Edits: 08/30/21
...so much of this has gone on over the last 20 years, US forces using cannon to fight mosquitos and killing tens of thousands of people "by mistake," I don't trust the Pentagon or the WH to give us the straight story.
How many fucking times are we going to destroy the village in order to save it? We had to blow up kids in order to save them from the suicide bomber?
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 08/30/21
let's all laugh bitterly at the very concept of 'smart bombs'
these defense contractors must think America was raised and educated with cartoons
wait, that's actually pretty accurate!
regards,
It's what created ISIS, what put the Taliban back in power, what cost us the war in Vietnam. I don't blame Biden for the mess in Kabul, but the retaliatory air strikes are another thing entirely.
I've said it again and again but it's true--the only lesson learned from Vietnam was never draft soldiers. Americans will ignore a 20-year long war as long as they aren't called on to put themselves out in any way.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 08/30/21
" I don't blame Biden for the mess in Kabul"Why not? He and his team have been in charge since January.
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
Edits: 08/30/21
there's an unspoken mantra 'you're not hurting the right people' ...
... 'and when you do it's not enough'
it permeates perception and policy on many levels
and various media are becoming more comfortable articulating it
this used to be hidden under the veneer of 'helping' and 'duty'
it's an aspect of our basic bloodthirsty tribal nature as humans
perhaps for every step in evolution there's corresponding devolution?
*yeesh*
...are us.
We've never been hurt by our actions. Even 9/11 was a pinprick compared to the damage we've done to other countries in my lifetime.
The American public doesn't care because the American public isn't affected.
Compared to the other combatant nations, we suffered little in the world wars, more Americans have died from Covid.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
'we suffered little in the world wars'
I urge you to take some time and rethink this, especially WWII
regards,
Less than half the number of Americans dead from Covid.
The Soviets lost 25 million. The Chinese lost 14 million. Two-thirds of the globe was laid waste. England was nearly bankrupt, didn't even end food rationing until the 1950s were well underway. The US didn't even need to ration while the war was on, FDR thought it would be good for every citizen to contribute to the war effort.
Hundreds of millions of people traded one form of tyranny for another. Europe and Asia were laid waste. The worst of the fighting was in Ukraine, Georgia, Belorus, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, and a few countries that don't exist anymore. So many millions died, nobody can fix the exact number.
But the US came out clean and smelling like roses. Our cities weren't bombed, 25% of our population wasn't killed, none of our people were forcibly displaced (except for the Nisei we put in concentration camps). Our economy boomed, we got rich, became the richest country the world had ever seen.
For us, the second world war isn't real. It's Hollywood. It's entertainment. IMO, it's the biggest reason why the public lets the leaders inflict it on so many other countries.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 08/30/21 08/30/21 08/30/21 08/30/21
that's odd, most history books place total deaths from 'direct action' at around 670K > 750K with over 1M wounded ... your point on infrastructure is well taken though
and of course those countries hosting the theatre of operations were more profoundly affected how couldn't they be?
regards,
than the US did in the entire war in both theaters.
According to Wikipedia, the US had 297,000 combat deaths in the second world war, 113k non combat deaths (nearly as many bomber crews died in training as in combat, for example), and 670K wounded.
And that's what the history books say as well. My shelves are lined with them.
Eisenhower's whole approach in the ETO to use firepower to minimize casualties, even if it mean a slower advance into Germany. It's the main reason why he didn't drive to Berlin. The city was going to be in the Soviet zone anyway, why suffer the casualties?
The battles in the Pacific were bloody, but small scale compared to Europe. There were really two different wars since there was no real way for Japan and Germany to co-ordinate operations. Us vs. Japan in the Pacific and Germany vs. the Soviet Union with the US and the British helping out in Europe.
By the time the Western allies invaded Normandy, German defeat was already certain.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
has ever managed to in a war.
Really adds to the we are our own worst enemy line of thinking doesn't it?
Self hate is REAL hate.
"No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country."
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
suicide bombing at the airport?
Well over 100?
is that it signals, in reality, a surrender.
"March 25 — Gen. Richard Clarke, commander of the U.S. Special Operations Command, tells the Senate Armed Services Committee that "it is clear that the Taliban have not upheld what they said they would do and reduce the violence. While...-they have not attacked U.S. forces, it is clear that they took a deliberate approach and increased their violence...-since the peace accords were signed.":
So, the Taliban pushes the agreement and violates it, challenging the US to retaliate, then escalate, and then having to stay behind.
My question to the more conservative guys here: where's your support for the troops, for the commanders, for the C-in-C during a critical time?
ANY time frame for a withdrawal that MUST occur is bad. Anyone here remember the helicopter on the roof of the American Embassy in Saigon?
"Two were women, Marine Corps Sgt. Nicole L. Gee, 23, of Sacramento, California, and Marine Corps Sgt. Johanny Rosario Pichardo, 25, of Lawrence, Massachusetts."
d
,
The first US soldiers killed in action in 18 months.
Our foreign policy is criminal. We burn down other countries and then we're shocked when the other guy hits back in the only way he can.
In my lifetime, the US has put tens of millions of people to the torch. We've overthrown legitimate governments all over the world, installed puppets, and used whatever force was necessary to keep our puppets in place. Didn't matter how murderous our guys were, they were our guys. We're an evil empire.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Nt.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
Yes, not many killed in action lately, thanks to the ceasefire negotiated last Feb, which included the release of 5000 Taliban prisoners, including the guy who protected bin laden as he planned and executed the 9/11 attack. It also meant drawing down most of the troops in January, and the ceasefire was to end on May 1st, extended to next week.If we're not out by Tuesday, thanks to the ceasefire negotiated last Feb, which included the release of 5000 Taliban prisoners, including the guy who protected bin laden as he planned and executed the 9/11 attack, widespread war would flare up again and we'd be sending more troops back and no doubt more would die in action than the 11 thus far.
What would you do?
Edits: 08/29/21
Your callousness is appalling. The other guy negotiated a withdrawal based on metrics. The new guy made his own plan. He can't blame the other guy. The new guy didn't follow the old guys other plans.
Why would you give up a defensible airport controlled by the Air Force and choose to use Kabal and believe instead? Then, you believe that Taliban would security and everything would be unicorns and rainbows?
> > What would you do?
Not much you can do when it's a bad plan to start.
How many others will be murdered?
-Rod
It was also made by another one of my favorite commentators, Alexander Mercouris, in one of his YouTube videos recently.
OTOH, I'm not sure what "metrics" "the other guy" was operating on, or if those "metrics" would have made any difference during the final withdrawal anyway. It's a moot point IMHO.
where they reviewed all the metrics
5000 Taliban prisoners released too! Including one of the 9/11 crew.
That's a cool metric right there!
. I judge any sound system by how tiring it is to listen to.
Linkwitz
.
-Rod
And k Patel was only then put in charge of the pentagon, from being a congressman aid with absolute no military experience
Silence is golden duct tape is silver
Hardly the guy I'd look to for an objective perspective and his column appears in Murdoch's notorious right wing rag.
Personally, I don't believe much that the new guy reads off the teleprompter.
-Rod
nt
equals many false and deliberate lies in one week.It's also how they rate presidents. "They're ALL bad!" Again, this mature conclusion is after finding one miscue on one side and a false equivalency with falsehoods, law-breaking on an unprecedented scale.
It is a textbook case of "anchor bias." One can't face the fact of a bad decision, so the entire process or group of people must be equally bad--- and no amount of evidence or logic can change that view. Studies show, in fact, that the more the evidence to the contrary, the more the denial.
Edits: 08/30/21
Just a little of the substance and context provided by your referenced article. Kash Patel stated:"We handed our entire plan to the incoming Biden administration during the lengthy transition. The new team simply wasn't interested.
Everything changed when the new commander in chief declared that US forces would leave Afghanistan by Sept. 11, 2021, pushing back the Trump administration's timetable by four months. Crucially, he didn't condition the withdrawal on continued adherence to the agreed-upon stipulations. It would be an unconditional pullout with an arbitrary date based on pure symbolism - and set in stone.
At that point, the Taliban sat back and waited for the date to draw near, then launched a countrywide offensive, knowing they had no reason to fear any reprisals from this administration. The ongoing chaos - not least the stranding of US personnel and allies - was the natural result of the Biden administration's decision to eschew a conditions-based plan."
Edits: 08/29/21
gosh, I hate to slaughter the source but seriously? Kash Patel?
Devin Nunes running buddy on his 'Freedom Tour'?
the Trump apparatchik darling of Breitbart & RW websites everywhere?
no one worked for Trump that wasn't a thoroughly vetted schmuck, period
that's like asking a flying monkey if the evil witch was just misunderstood
but do carry on, it doesn't change a single thing
you should take a peek as to what Kash is up to these days
if you guessed 'grifting' on Trump's name claim your prize!
regards,
What else is new?
did exactly what any reasonable person would expect: they refused to fight and die for a totally corrupt and illegitimate puppet government installed and payed for by the U.S.
Which was completely sensible!
LOL I am surprised Kabul lasted even 11 days. If you had lived through the vietnam years, you would have known how pathetic the fake government and fake army were a decade ago.
. I judge any sound system by how tiring it is to listen to.
Linkwitz
"The reduction could complicate matters for the incoming Biden administration, which must determine how to handle a Trump administration commitment to the Taliban to remove all U.S. military, intelligence and contractor personnel from Afghanistan by May as a move to spur peace negotiations. Those talks are in an early stage."
Also from your referenced article:
"President-elect Joe Biden, who has advocated keeping a small counterterrorism force in Afghanistan as a way to ensure that extremist groups like al-Qaida are unable to launch attacks on the United States, faces a number of questions on Afghanistan. One is how and whether to proceed with fledgling peace talks between the Taliban and the Afghan government.."
Hmmm.
Biden "advocated keeping a small counterterrorism force in Afghanistan". So Biden was actually against a full withdrawal from Afghanistan?
Interesting.
'Biden "advocated keeping a small counterterrorism force in Afghanistan"
he did, but don't take that too far out of context
that was based on the existing gov't & military remaining in control
or whatever passes for control there
when they folded like cheap lawn chairs he basically said screw it, out!
regards,
"that was based on the existing gov't & military remaining in control
or whatever passes for control there
when they folded like cheap lawn chairs he basically said screw it, out!"
Uh, no.
Biden made his decision to fully withdraw from Afghanistan prior to any of that happening.
'Biden made his decision to fully withdraw from Afghanistan prior to any of that happening'
no he didn't. those events occurred contemporaneously. here's a direct quote from the article you based your comment on about Biden keeping a contingent there ... second paragraph
"The reduction could complicate matters for the incoming Biden administration, which must determine how to handle a Trump administration commitment to the Taliban to remove all U.S. military, intelligence and contractor personnel from Afghanistan by May as a move to spur peace negotiations. Those talks are in an early stage"
note the first sentence and the date of the article; 1/15 is prior to the official transfer of office on 1/21. he had not decided yet on troop retention and the directive to [reportedly] draw troop levels down to 2.5K wasn't his
you've taken the context of an article published prior to Biden taking office and applied it to events that transpired months later not me
he did say he would consider keeping 'advisors' there after taking office during those 'talks' the quoted article said were pending, I saw & heard this in televised press briefings, read it too but I'm not digging up citations
as the pull out began when asked by the press if there would be any US military presence left at all he alluded to one 'in the region' and 'discussions' but as soon as 'provinces' started falling without an Afghan military response and their gov't stopped taking calls, never again to my knowledge
Do you trust Mr. Patel?
At least as much as Americans approve of Biden's handling of the Afghanistan situation. :-) Oh wait, actually, more than Americans approve of Biden's handling of the Afghanistan situation. Polls show only 25 - 31% of Americans (depending on which poll, NBC News poll or Morning Consult/Politico poll) approve of Biden's handling of the Afghanistan situation.
"Found total of 0 records."
For what it's worth (which is questionable), I just did.
Query: "Afghanistan" +"Deaths" +"Casualties", Date: 2008-01-01 to 2020-12-31 in Inmate Central ....
Dated from: 2008-01-01 To 2020-12-31
Found 200 records in Search of Inmate Central.
If you don't mind checking the actual results, how many have anything to do with Afghanistan?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!"
- Sir Walter Scott, 1808
First you say "You are right about its worth being questionable". Then you ask "If you don't mind checking the actual results, how many have anything to do with Afghanistan?" (Perhaps your reply was simply an inane mistake.)
I already wasted enough of my time on an untrue statement made by you. Why would I waste more of my time to prove a point that you are trying to make, a point that you tried to make based on a false statement. That's not how this (argument) works. It's up to YOU to prove your point. Don't add being simple to being dishonest. Or, are you simply trolling me? Hard to tell when on an online forum, when not face-to-face.
No, sir, not trolling at all. None of the results from your link had anything to do with Afghanistan. So we're back to zero acknowledgement, at least at Central.
12 years and no attention given to those who passed in the line of duty. Seems pretty callous.
a better question is why is the agreement with the Taliban so in focus when it was an ISIS_K attack?
.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
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