|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
68.6.131.58
I wonder how it came to pass that a Federal District has a regular population?
Now about 700,000 persons are going to get 2 senators and a couple representatives.....
All probably Democratic.What is the history of the district with 2 parts? How has it NOT already been made a state? And WHY are 'regular' citizens living IN the district?
Doesn't the REQUEST for Statehood have to come FROM the area in question?
LINK ADDED with some further information:
Too much is never enough
Edits: 04/22/21Follow Ups:
between the democrats and republicans why not split the electoral votes into the new joining states such as PR and DC. a similar approach to Nebraska and Maine has.
All, but two states, electoral votes are 'winner-take-all'. The candidate winning the popular vote normally receives all of that state's votes. Maine and Nebraska have taken a different approach. Using the 'congressional district method', these states allocate two electoral votes to the state popular vote winner, and then one electoral vote to the popular vote winner in each Congressional district (2 in Maine, 3 in Nebraska). This creates multiple popular vote contests in these states, which could lead to a split electoral vote.
If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
(Proverb)
Winner take all is the 'American Way'.......But I'd dump it in an instant for some such system as you describe.
Too bad? Next step is to GAME the redistricting to produce the maximum number of 'one-party' districts.
IF we could mandate a computer program to do the redistricting, based on some measurable, like minimum border length AND equal populations?
Right now? so many 'safe' districts as to defeat the purpose of a representative republic.I'm in favor of FOLDING most of current DC into an existing state. Probably Maryland......
Next up? A move to divide California into 3 states. 1 guaranteed Dem and the other 2 would be Rep. With Puerto Rico? That'd be what.....54 states?
Too much is never enough
Edits: 04/23/21
Move the boundaries inward to include the Mall and cafeteria. Let the areas with residents get representation through the proximal state governments of VA and MD.
Or annex the neighborhoods into adjacent suburbs like Bethesda and Alexandria. Most government functions and organizations already exist in the non-DC regions.
what about Puerto Rico? no statehood for them?
keeping them a territory but collecting federal taxes is ... uhm
whats it called again? the British used to do it all the time
never mind, they speak pigeon Spanish and there's POC there
the only reason Hawaii achieved statehood was because ... ?
why was that anyway?
{I know you know, just hoping against hope some of the nimrod parrots I see posting on DC statehood might look into it]
with regards,
The Democratic party platform has waffled.
Puerto Rico pays some federal taxes, but not federal income taxes. Overall, they are a net recipient of federal money. One motivation behind Republican support for statehood is to get Puerto Ricans to "pay their fair share" i.e. income taxes. Another motivation was having a stronger presence in the Caribbean to counter Cuban influence.
Somehow in the 2020 election cycle, a lot of Republicans forgot about their 5 decades of supporting Puerto Rican statehood, while Democrats started to see PR as a potentially gridlock-breaking blue state. Trump's high profile feud with Carmen Cruz probably had something to do with that.
But it would be foolish to assume that PR would be a reliable blue state. Puerto Ricans are generally social conservatives, and favor tight immigration policy.
'pays some federal taxes, but not federal income taxes'
it depends on who they are and who they work for
as far as individual outlay as a % of income, customs & federal commodity taxes place their tax burden on par as it's built into pricing and collected incrementally at the point of sale; everyone still pays FICA
'they are a net recipient of federal money'
true ... about $500M > $600M on average over the past decade or so, yet lower than about 15 states in the continental US by year / capita on average
PR has traditionally been used as a tax haven by corporations too
and ... Trump's being denied development deals on the island is the source of his animosity, not any petty feuds with local politicians ... Carmen Cruz being female, but having power & 'back talking' simply fed into the misogynistic aspect of his NPD
'Puerto Ricans are generally social conservatives'
as are the majority of those US citizens of 'Hispanic heritage'
I'm not sure why when they get used as a political pinata` by the right
anyway, they deserve statehood and it would allow the US to collect a hell of a lot more in corporate taxes if they got it ... win / win budget wise
with regards,
I'd be in favor of making Puerto Rico a state regardless of how it voted. It's the right thing to do.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 04/23/21
They voted it down years ago.
I don't remember when.
My grandmother is no longer with us so I can't ask her.
Or talk to her about why Puerto Rican's didn't want statehood.
There have been referendums on statehood in 1967, 1998, 2012, 2017, and 2020.
In 1967, the vote was for 60/40 in favor of the current status.
In 1998, 47% voted for statehood while "none of the above" won a slim majority.
In 2012, the results were inconclusive. There were two questions. The first question was whether to keep current status, and the majority voted "No". The second question was predicated on a "No" answer to the first, asking whether voters preferred independence, statehood, or something in between (free association). The "No" + statehood option got 834k votes while the "Yes" answer to the first question got 828k votes, so one could argue that statehood was the most preferred option. However, the votes for statehood were only 44% of the total ballot.
In 2017, the referendum used loaded language to try to steer votes towards statehood. The result was 97% in favor of statehood because everyone else boycotted the vote. Turnout was only 23%
Last year's referendum was just a simple Yes/No vote on whether PR should become a state. Yes won by a 5 point margin. So it's fair to say that a majority of Puerto Ricans do want it now.
'They voted it down years ago'
that was then, this is now ... and DC does want it so ...
'why Puerto Rican's didn't want statehood'
probably pride of identity and having fed taxes piled on top of their high 'consumer taxes' which certainly would still be charged being an island etc.
regards,
My understanding is that the majority of Puerto Ricans once rejected statehood because they felt that Puerto Rico was a unique subculture that was substantially different from any of the subcultures existing on the mainland.
Which is sort of true even today, I think.
yes ... a large component for sure
I suspect it had a lot more to do with NOT wanting to pay Federal Income Taxes. Identity was just the smokescreen
That makes excellent sense.
At a time of peak nationalism, military and econ bennies were found positive for inclusion -- at the same time --so no upsetting the congressional balance. One state plus, the other minus. No such balance on tap for DC or PR. Republicans would be history.
There was also some kind of two-fer deal with AZ and NM.
Unless we find an island out there with leftover Nazis that we can annex, I doubt PR ever gets in. With the current splintering of the US, maybe some new boundaries could be drawn up. MI's UP, the left coast's Jefferson, northern ID and eastern WA ...
This is all filed in the politics-are-fun folder. Which we know is a myth.
A partisan is a committed member of a political party. In multi-party systems, the term is used for persons who strongly support their party's policies and are reluctant to compromise with political opponents.
"Politics is the ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow, next week, next month, and next year. And to have the ability afterward to explain why it didn't happen." Churchill
If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
(Proverb)
I generally agree.
I got in trouble here quoting an economist of note. I was reminded of his mistake(s). Well, name an expert with a 100% record.
I use weather forecasting as an example. I can step outside right this minute and tell you what is going to happen for the next couple hours. But I see rain in the forecast for MONDAY. the 3 places I look at, neighboring towns, ALL call for 50% chance that day. But were I to look in detail? Differences in TIMES and probabilities. Still actually up for grabs at MY house....
But with people? They respond to predictions and information in UnPredictable ways. Sometimes even contrary. I just recorded a movie to watch. 'INSIDE JOB' tells the story of the 2008 finaancial meltdown. The few minutes I've seen? None of the players see anything wrong. Business as usual and Ho-Hum.....It's easy to game-the-game when you OWN the game.
I'm partisan to somethings, but not a particular party. Pandering bastards, all.....
Too much is never enough
hope Senate shoot it down in a hurry.
Wouldn't you expect senate rule changes or maybe elimination of the filibuster prior to serious consideration of DC statehood?
It's the right thing to do.
Let the people of D.C. have the same kind of representation that every other major city gets, no more, no less. And by taking statehood off the table, we avoid the big fight over Democrat vs. Republican balance in the Federal government. There's zero chance of ratification by the states if the amendment shifts the red/blue balance in the House, Senate, and Electoral College. But if the amendment only shifts the balance in one state, it has a chance of ratification.
...and why would they? It's a "money-pit" with "issues" and very little value as a source of revenue. I lived there for a number of years (DuPont Circle), but never became a resident of DC--I maintained my OH residency.
I enjoyed my stay there, but on a cost/benefit basis, I wouldn't move back permanently.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
It's only fair that DC gets statehood. It's not like it would be the smallest state being larger than both Wyoming and Vermont and similar in size to many small states.What justification could there possibly be to deny them Statehood? There isn't one other than to suppress votes which of course nobody does (wink, wink).
Edits: 04/22/21 04/22/21
If the standard for statehood is 700k people, then this country should have 470 states. New York City alone could be divided into more states than boroughs, and instead of spanning 3 states, the NYC metro area could span up to 30.
The obvious reason why statehood for D.C. doesn't make sense is that it's only 68 square miles and it's just the city center of a greater metropolitan area. No other American city is a state by itself, and D.C. ranks 20th by population and something like 200th by land area.
There are some obvious reasons why we don't want city centers to be states independent from their surrounding metropolitan areas, that hopefully I don't have to explain.
Vermont and Wyoming are less populated than DC. And Alaska and both Dakotas are just a little more populated.
There is no standard and if there was DC would meet it given it's already more populated than two states.
There are more than 700,000 people living there without representation in the federal government.
They should have 2 senators and a single representative just like any other State with that many people.
There is nothing absurd about the proposition. One the other hand it's absurd to expect DC residents to pay federal taxes without representation.
We don't have city states in this country, let alone city center states, and we're not going to make a special exception for D.C. If the district was incorporated into Virginia (or Maryland if they prefer) then the people there would be represented and taxed the same as the people who live outside of the district boundaries but are part of the same metro area, many of whom work in the district.
But it seems like gerrymandering Senate seats to me. It's kind of obvious how important those senate votes are - yet dinky populated States like Vermont, Wyoming and about 10 others have the same power as California, New York and Texas. It's fine when it comes to sparse populations over large land masses but when it comes to small densely packed regions it's a no no.Your kind of thinking just continues down the path we've been on that promotes the exploitation the rural voters through demonization and fear mongering of universal issues that rise into view in large population areas. The promise is one of morality and godliness but in fact it's really nothing but a lie, a prayer and a longing for a return to ignorance.
Edits: 04/23/21 04/23/21
If I remember correctly, DC was set up the way it is specifically to keep it a "neutral" area, not subject to one political side or the other in national affairs. Good thinking.
It seems to me that the land was ceded by the States of Maryland and Virginia for this reason.
If people move there as more-or-less "permanent" residents, they move there with the full knowledge regarding lack of Congressional representation. If they decide they don't like it anymore, they can move out, just like people anywhere else in this country. Easy-peasy.
And, yes, the idea of city-states is wrong-headed, and opens the door to a number of bad possibilities across the country. But, it's politics, and it's bubbled to the top of some politicians' power priority list. Oh well.
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
which included Arlington and Alexandria, was given back to Virginia prior to the Civil war to appease pro-slavers.
Constitution permitting? This is a decent idea.
Retain a 'federal district' in which residence is not possible. The remainder is merged into an existing state.
I LIKE this idea if feasible. Good compromise which allows more reasonable represntation for the current district residents.....
Washington seems to be on the Maryland side of the 'stream' but I'd let 'em vote on which state of the 2 possible to join.
I'd be curious how the people will react after bcoming part of the Maryland Tax System......
Too much is never enough
Well, I don't know anything about the Maryland tax system, but even as a leftie of sorts, I have total respect for Md. Gov. Larry Hogan.
Good idea! But we already gave back the bottom piece of the geographic "diamond" to Virginia to appease slaveholders before the Civil war.
Edits: 04/22/21
There should be a fairly simple reason why DC isn't a state. Maybe someone here has the history about it.
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
But it's all quite confusing to me.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
I'd like some say in what Congress imposes on me. And I'd like the District to have the ability/right to call out the National Guard, as it could not Jan. 6.For the record, my U.S. Rep. cannot vote and the mayor does not have the authority to deploy the Guard.
Just sayin'.
Edits: 04/22/21
Unlike many in some southern states.
So, your Rep in Congress 'just hangs out'? That's not really fair.
I still wonder WHY and HOW anyone lives in the district at all?
Too much is never enough
The District's U.S. Rep. Eleanor Holmes Norton can't vote, but sits on two committees - Transportation and Infrastructure and Oversight. So, she's not just "hangin' out."
As for living in D.C., it's a great place to live and why we chose to retire here. Leafy, great museums, great art and music, good access to two airports for travel, good public transport, good food, and, by fall this year, the kids (son and wife) will be back from their overseas postings and my grandson will be living down the street from me. What's not to like?
Metro transport access gets dirt cheap with the senior card and property taxes for seniors (65+) are greatly reduced. Last I looked, property taxes in N.Y. on our last place are now running about $16,000 a year and where we lived in N.J. prior, they're now $20,000+!!!!
d
Beautiful city. Been there many times.
Personally, if it weren't for the hot and humid summers, I'd love to live there.
As far as having shit imposed on the city by the House of Representatives, well, I've been there and I live in Pittsburgh.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 04/22/21
.
No, Mr. Pence, 'The Handmaid's Tale' is not a documentary about the good old days.
And will fail for reasons stated by Madison stated in Federalist paper # 43 :
"This consideration has the more weight, as the gradual accumulation of public improvements at the stationary residence of the government would be both too great a public pledge to be left in the hands of a single State, and would create so many obstacles to a removal of the government, as still further to abridge its necessary independence. "
Statehood is now the clear preference of District of Columbia voting-rights advocates, but the proposal has never excited much support in Congress and would, in any case, also require a constitutional amendment since an independent territory, subject to the ultimate authority of Congress, was a critical part of the Framers' original design for an indestructible federal union of indestructible states.
-Rod
NT
She won't be re-elected... I suspect Collins will be facing the same fate when she is up for reelection as well. They're both a POS....
Jeez, so much for civil discourse.
I doubt she'll run again. Her challenger was a young ambitious and qualified democrat, but Mainers are difficult to sway, and Collins is/was a known quantity.
I agree. I think this is the last go-round for Susie.
Which means it's up for grabs in five years. Or sooner? She is old. Just sayin.
Guess this political thread is ok, so.....The only reason residents of D.C. are denied what similar populations in the Dakotas have is that Republicans are afraid that D.C. would elect Democrats. If they thought it'd be the opposite Republicans would be clamoring for D.C. statehood.
The constitution wasn't written by God and the idea that the framers knew where the country would be at in 2021 is ridiculous. There have been 27 amendments to the constitution, including Prohibition - the only one to be repealed.
Edits: 04/22/21
What is the chance of a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate?
-Rod
nt
The founders were very wary of exactly what's going on now."The common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it."
George Washington
Edits: 04/24/21
the founders required a two-thirds majority to pass sweeping legislation.
Evenly matched opinions don't rise to that occasion.
nt
Thank goodness for a two-thirds majority to make significant changes!
As you can see, most Americans don't. Partisan politics - with extremists totally unwilling to compromise - is preventing progress on all manner of issues, certainly not just giving 700,000 Americans a VOTING voice in Congress.
Edits: 04/25/21 04/26/21
my entire adult life. Do a good job and you will be rewarded. Learn how economics works and play the game. :)Life's good! I've almost cleared the vaccine #2 wait so about to cross home plate. Grateful to not have contributed to the statistics.
Beautiful weekend. Got in some good yard work time, refilled the five hummingbird feeders, hung a rain chain, helped wifey hang some pictures/mirrors and went to the practice tee to whack some balls. We'll be off for a walk later.
And have enjoyed tunes in the garage with the gorgeous weather.
edit: I almost forgot I'm on day 23 for April tracking > 8000 steps. Last two days were in the 12,000 step range.
Edits: 04/25/21
I'll look at the complete #42........
Too much is never enough
d
Or Puerto Rico and other colonies.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
DC has a representative IN the House.
And a city council with powers of taxation and everyone votes / or SHOULD, anyway.
At this link is how it stands NOW. I'm not sure I entirely agree, since I see Congress can oversee local law......
Too much is never enough
"DC has a representative IN the House."
That is true, however none in the senate and NO voting power in either.
nt
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
The colonists sought full political rights.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
Take a look at the populations of North and South Dakota; each has roughly the same population as DC. Each has 2 sens and 2 reps. Any problem with that?
It still has to pass the Senate and there's about as much of a chance of that happening as there is of me being captain of the Enterprise .
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Nt
"I'll be in the bathroom with an old Rolling Stone record guide."
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Nt
nt
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Nt
I've only met Bob Ludwig once. We had a very nice chat. Nice guy. Knows what he's doing.
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
nt
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
No mention of Mrs. Ghost? ;-)
Why is this so polarizing? What difference does it make to most people?
No, Mr. Pence, 'The Handmaid's Tale' is not a documentary about the good old days.
Conflict of interest regarding our nation. It matters.
The founders feared that whichever state hosted the nation's capitol would have unfair influence in federal decision making. They were probably right about that, especially early in the country's history. But I'm not convinced that applies anymore.
But they never anticipated the district becoming a densely populated major city where the vast majority of residents are not part of the federal government, and the vast majority of federal workers are not residents of the district.
we still need to read their tea leaves. They're all as dead as the 18th Century, but that doesn't matter. Some people can't take a shit without checking to see what Madison said in the Federalist Papers about the color, consistency, and smell.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 04/22/21 04/22/21
Being the world's longest standing democratic government indicates they got something right.
Like I said though, I don't think the original reason for D.C. independence is much of a factor today.
in the middle of the 19th Century to fix what they fucked up. Much bloodshed and destruction.
I have real issues with the idea of original intent. They're all dead, we can't ask them their opinions on, say, Obamacare. Hell, in 1789 you didn't even need to go to medical school in order to be a doctor.
Or how about Whren ? The highways are a 4th Amendment-free zone because a group of 18th Century oligarchs wanted it that way? Really?
Or how about Kelo vs. New London ?
Original intent is just a political game used to justify the belief systems and political philosophy of Federal justices.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
nt
IIRC, 97 percent of vote went for Biden. So, yeah, it would appear that the population would go for two Dem senators.
.
No, Mr. Pence, 'The Handmaid's Tale' is not a documentary about the good old days.
Yes, there are Constitutional provisions that must be addressed/overcome to proceed with granting Statehood to the District of Columbia.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
Like nearly everthing else, from your morning choice of coffee drink, to what you drive, it has become a political issue.
This started, according to the article I linked, back when Hawaii and Alaska were bing considered for Statehood.
Too much is never enough
And now a poem, for all you patriots of empire.
by John Agard
What's that fluttering in a breeze?
It's just a piece of cloth
that brings a nation to its knees.
What's that unfurling from a pole?
It's just a piece of cloth
that makes the guts of men grow bold.
What's that rising over a tent?
It's just a piece of cloth
that dares the coward to relent.
What's that flying across a field?
It's just a piece of cloth
that will outlive the blood you bleed.
How can I possess such cloth?
Just ask for a flag, my friend.
Then blind your conscience to the end.
That is something that Donnie might consider, but your country is headed back out of the Dark Ages now.
No, Mr. Pence, 'The Handmaid's Tale' is not a documentary about the good old days.
nt
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Wow! you really go the limit.
I asked a legit question about 2 parts of what's going on.
1. Should regular citizens be IN the District at all? I know some of the first things IN the district besides a few politicians were bars, a brothel and some rental houseing.
2. Where is the request for statehood started? In the past Congress has issued requests and such while the territory (or in this case district) WROTE A CONSTITUTION. Does any such document exist for the District?
In other cases, the proposed state started the ball rolling.
I'm just trying to get clear on procedures, history and going forward.
Too much is never enough
I just don't see who it would harm. There are voters there, just like everywhere else. It seems that the only 'good' reason to refuse would be to use them as bargaining chips for some reason that I can't imagine.
No, Mr. Pence, 'The Handmaid's Tale' is not a documentary about the good old days.
That's why I asked IF people (regular citizens) should be in the district at all?
They DO have a representative in Congress....in the HOUSE, I think.....
But otherwise? Another bone to fight over.
And yes, the Republicans are really stressed at the prospect of another pair of democratic senators.
Too much is never enough
Could tip the balance of power in the Senate for many years.
Believe it or not, this is the same reason why there are two Dakotas.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
the reasons why Puerto Rico hasn't been allowed to join the union. Sad.
If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
(Proverb)
Political manipulation, and not even trying to hide it either.
No, Mr. Pence, 'The Handmaid's Tale' is not a documentary about the good old days.
nt
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Yes I get THAT.....but am still curious as to the actual history of the District as well as procedures FOR statehood.
Is it a request from the territory OR started in Washington?
Every Western Movie has the 'territorial convention' or whatever they call it.
Too much is never enough
too many local initiatives get over-ruled by the US House. For example, in 2014 the District legalized marijuana by ballot initiative (65% voted to legalize) but Maryland Representative Andy Harris blocked funding that allowed the law to go into effect.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: