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In Reply to: RE: Everyday now, mass shootings in the land of the free. What solution should posted by tinear on April 16, 2021 at 06:33:43
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Follow Ups:
Under Heller , the landmark 2008 SCOTUS decision that, for the first time in US history established a right to own a gun, the majority still held that gun rights aren't absolute and that the states and the Federal government still had the Constitutional authority to restrict the types of weapons available to the general public and establish rules for gun ownership such as licensing and registration.
It's an an incorrect assumption that any American who wants a gun gets one regardless of past histories of mental illness or violent crime because the Second Amendment says so.
Legislatures have the power to prevent many of these mass shootings in the future. They just refuse to use that power.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 04/16/21
"The Second Amendment was added because in order to maintain a free state the people must have the right to keep and bear arms, "armed citizens is what keeps the government honest." The people wanted the Amendment because no government would try to take over with armed citizens."
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Or maybe it was Madison. Either way, neither Madison nor Adams ever at any point cared what the "people" wanted.
If you ever get the time, read Scalia's majority opinion in District of Columbia v. Heller . Keep in mind that up until Heller in 2008, no Supreme Court ever ruled that the Second Amendment established a right to gun ownership.
But, per the majority opinion in that case, governments at all level have the Constitutional right to impose many restrictions. Assault weapons bans are Constitutional. It's also Constitutional to strip gun rights for certain types of crimes and even civil offenses. Here in Allegheny County, in Pennsylvania, you can have all of your guns confiscated under a protection from abuse order. All Constitutional.
None of our rights are absolute. Not free speech, not freedom of religion, not protections against self-incrimination, and not gun ownership.
And remember, I'm just the messenger here. Keeping my own opinions to myself.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 04/16/21 04/16/21 04/16/21
True assault weapons - by definition those possessing selective fire capability - were highly regulated in 1934 with the NFA following gang related crime.
For the past eighty years, the ability to purchase a "battlefield" gun has been restricted.
Clinton's misnamed ban from 1994 , however, was entirely based upon cosmetic criteria. Pick two:
Ironically, while Armalite derived guns were included - at least until those cosmetic features were removed - a semi-automatic rifle from Ruger using the same .223 or 7.62x39 round was not included. Why? It wasn't black!
and make the ban much broader the old one. That's the point. There's a perception that the Second Amendment is absolute and that any restriction at all is un-Constitutional. At least absent another SCOTUS ruling, some restrictions are indeed Constitutional. Congress and the states could impose those restrictions without any changes to the Second Amendment.
All of this is conjecture because Congress won't even reinstate the Clinton-era ban. Even if the Democrats ditched the filibuster, such a ban is not likely to pass the Senate.
At any rate, like I said below, gun control measures of this type are pretty much reactions to things that happened in the distant past. They're not likely to stop mass shooters, or even cut down on the number of mass shootings. Dylann Roof used a 9 mm. handgun. The Sandy Hook guy was sitting on the arsenal his mother had collected over the years. Absent an AR-15, he'd have chosen something else just as lethal. The gun itself was irrelevant, which is 180-degrees opposite how legit gun owners and collectors think. It was just a tool, a way he could get into that school and kill people.
Criminal background checks are Constitutional but they aren't going to stop future Sandy Hooks. At least IMO.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Nt.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
others here have correctly pointed out that most gun deaths are suicide ... and suicide / murder, but usually via handgun ... those are tragic but they're small scale tragedies and nearly impossible to stop ... though there are measures available to at least impact those stats positively
it's getting the mass shootings quelled, and the figures don't lie
as you've pointed out a few times, 'assault weapon' bans did have a positive impact reducing mass shootings ... so reinstate it, easy peasy
most of the voters approve of this and I say damn the arguments against it by lobbyist, politicians, and the ammo-sexuals
with regards,
if you read the proposals by the 'current guy' they make pretty good sense and have the broadest level of support for reforms seen in a long time
I find a few that don't sit well but they're not deal breakers
there's a reason for receivers in weapons being serialized and under current law a gunsmith that can't account for them in inventory gets their license jacked ... so the 'ghost gun' portion makes perfect sense to me
closing the 'gun show loophole' is just common sense; ie: in N. Carolina
there's a three day window for FBI background checks, if it's not met the sale goes through anyway ... that's just stupid ... especially in light of a weakened agency via staff attrition / reassignments
consistency in gun forfeiture rules also rings true, and I'm not understanding the objection to magazine limits ... when you hunt there's rarely a good second shot let alone five ... for home defense you rarely need all five, and since the best long rifle for this is a shotgun that's par for the course as far as rounds go ...
but as you say, several of those weapons used in mass shootings were bought legally and in close proximity time wise to the events ... but a more thorough screening process could have / might have weeded out a high risk actor, a magazine round limit demands reloads granting more time to gain cover
it's all worth a shot [so to speak] and there's actually bi-partisan support from the electorate so I think this should be reflected by those elected instead of subverting the will of the people for campaign funds
anyway, something effective has to be done and soon since thoughts and prayers just result in flags at half mast ... if even that gets done
regards,
Back in 1934! A semi-automatic rifle is not an "assault weapon" and is not used by any military force.
They're not likely to stop mass shooters, or even cut down on the number of mass shootings.
Confusing the issue with facts goes right over the heads of guys like O'Rourke. But... he cares . Ignore the fact that the 1994 ban was yet another trip down irrelevancy lane. And Biden wants to resurrect failure. What a guy!
for decades. AR-15-style semi-automatics have proven themselves to be very nearly as deadly, with few if any legitimate needs for civilian use, and with some decent political will and common sense, could be just as legally and successfully banned. Wanting to be the biggest badass on the block is not a valid reason for owning one of these horrible things that have inflicted so much carnage on the innocent while accomplishing almost nothing legally useful. People can still have their normal weaponry for hunting and rational self-defense needs.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
Actually, that's not entirely true. Highly regulated and difficult to obtain the necessary stamp for use, yes. Banned? No.
The 1934 NFA provides a pathway for ownership. Along with the use of silencers which is something I've considered getting for audiophile reasons!
with few if any legitimate needs for civilian use
Exactly how is that determined? The Ruger Mini 14 Ranch rifle has been very useful in its intended role for nearly forty years - using the same .223 caliber round found in Armalite based rifles.
Even it is not powerful enough for hunting many game. There are ten states which ban the use of a small caliber rifle for deer hunting.
and the political reality compels them to do something. So I don't blame Biden or any of the others. There's a line from an old Simpsons episode about the "never give up, never think things through" spirit of our people, always springs to my mind. The knee jerks, get out of the way or get kicked.
What it would take is, you want to buy a gun, the state sends actual human beings out to interview people you know, people you've worked with, etc. Even that wouldn't stop all mass shootings but it might stop some.
It's pure fantasy of course. The resources aren't there and Americans would resent the intrusion into their private lives even though they have no reservations about posting every detail of their private lives on Facebook.
We'd be much better served if we could find out why there are people who harbor enough rage to pick up a gun and kill a boatload of strangers. But that's hard, takes time, requires nuance, and the results won't be cut and dried/black and white. By the time enough data has been collected, the public will have moved on to the next crisis.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Even that wouldn't stop all mass shootings but it might stop some.
While any loss of life is sad, few understand where the numbers of gun related deaths really lie.
As of 2018, suicides represented 60% of the total (~24k) while murders using firearms accounted for 37% (~14k). So how many of that number were due to cases like we've recently seen?
According to FBI criteria , there were 85 deaths resulting from "active shooter incidents", a category they regularly track. By comparison, there were 20 deaths resulting from lightning strikes!
And rifles of any kind are used in only 4% of those crimes. Folks don't want to address where the real numbers are found - handgun use in gang and drug related crime.
a 'blended' strategy is needed & it hasn't always been this way, remember?
it seems like a long time ago in a far away place but still ....
I remember
regards,
I'm mulling over 'The Adak Solution'....
3x felons? Allowed to liquidate assets, buy whatever they want (limited firearms) and are than shipped FOREVER to Adak Island Alaska. Buy the place out, if that's what it takes. Than? Patrol boats in summer. Winter? Forget it! HIGHEST temp on record IN SUMMER is 73f.
Let the 'inmates' administer their OWN affairs. Drop MREs from a plane, as needed. Shooting at THAT plane will result in airstrikes.
Military will be responsible for whatever security is needed. No Private boats allowed near the place and they'll get SUNK on sight. Escape from island (It should be inherently even MORE secure than Alcatraz) is a capital offense.
Gun owners should be compelled to buy a LOCK BOX.....but not of the 'biometric' type for which a hundred videos exist on line to open 'em by 12 year olds with paper clips. And than the BATTERY runs out when you actually NEED the firearm. And YES, hold the parent responsible. Enforce current law would be a decent start.
Too much is never enough
But even the mildest background check legislation failed to pass the Senate. Bi-partisan sponsorship (Pat Toomey and Joe Manchin) in the wake Sandy Hook.
Actually, the bill never came up for a vote because of the filibuster. It would likely have passed otherwise.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 04/16/21
I'm sorry......I don't completely understand?
There ARE background check laws and they are enforced.
From the look of the link, it is enforced by the FBI
California wait period is also enforced, to you can't get mad, than go buy a gun.......I think the wait period is 2 weeks?
AND in California? You must also have a (EASY to get) Handgun Safety Certificate.....I think the test and fees total 20$ or 25$ fot this which is NEEDED to even start your paperwork.
and here in California? NO GunShow 'loophole'. And fewer and fewer gunshows. I went to one once to buy FITTED EARPLUGS to save my hearing while taking woodshop classes. Worth the cost.
Too much is never enough
Only licensed gun dealers need to perform criminal background checks. And they aren't very thorough. The spa shooter in Georgia, from what I've read, got his gun the same day he shot up the massage parlors.
The Manchin-Toomey bill would have required background checks for Internet sales and sales at gun shows. You would still have been able to give a gun to your spouse or kids without a background check. It even reiterated a ban on any national gun registry. Pretty small beer but it died without a vote.
FWIW, I don't think it would have worked. Crazy as it sounds, the problem isn't criminals with guns; some idiot who holds up a 7-11 isn't a mass shooter.
It should go without saying that passionate gun freaks and casual "I've got one for self-defense" folks are not the problem either. Anybody who fetishizes his AR-15 the way I do my LP collection isn't a mass shooter.
There's something endemic to the US, something in our socio-economic system that causes rage and depersonalization. We have higher levels of mental illness than the rest of the industrialized world as well. The two most common types of mass shootings are a) a guy who was known to be a dangerous nut, who scared most of the people who knew him, gets a gun and goes into a school/shopping mall/former workplace and starts killing people, saving the last bullet for himself, or b) guy with a history of domestic abuse gets a gun and kills his ex-wife, their kids, her parents, her new BF, then himself. Criminal background checks probably won't make a dent.
Our gun control laws are stuck in 1968, designed to prevent muggings and armed robberies that were common 50 years ago but are far less common today.
Maybe instead of criminal background checks, maybe it should be more like applying for security clearance. Talk to family members and employers instead of the local court system.
Of course, that has about as much chance of happening as me looking like Jon Hamm.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 04/17/21
CA RIGEROUSLY enforces pre-sale checks. And you must go thru the SAME procedure should you want to buy something that shoots.....at a Gun Show.
Same Day? Even I have a problem with that.
Problem is, as I see it that you can get a gun in nearly any big city without ANY checks. And you don't even have to be 'of age' or a citizen or even human, apparently.
Nut-jobs typically leave a trail. IF ENFORCED uniformly, I'd be willing to give the current background check system a 50-state go. right now? only 30 states use the FBI system! Make getting an FFL conditional o USING the FBI system as a check and THAN perform audits. As needed.
ANYONE selling to a minor or 'restricted' person should be taken to task and given my 'Adak solution'.
Too much is never enough
So does Chicago. The problem for Chicago is that it's close to Indiana which is pretty lax. Pittsburgh tried to adopt NYC type background checks and the Commonwealth passed a preemption law forbidding cities to have gun laws that were any different from state laws.
New York is more successful because PA is kind of strict and so is New Jersey. New Jersey nearly mandated that only smart guns would be sold in the state's gun shops.
Remember when Plaxico Burress accidentally shot himself in the leg? He ended up doing jail time because the gun wasn't registered. From what I've read, you live in New York City, you want to register a gun, the cops go out and talk to your neighbors, co-workers, and family before they issue the permit.
Brandon Hole, the guy who shot up FedEx in Indianapolis, he was known to authorities. He already had a shotgun confiscated. It'll be interesting to see how he acquired the rifle he used yesterday but in some states, people with histories of mental illness and domestic violence are still allowed to buy guns.
Filling out a form in a gun shop isn't going to stop guys like Brandon Hole or Dylan Roof. The NYC style of background checks would be best but again, I have a better chance of waking up 30 years younger tomorrow than Congress doing anything meaningful to address mass shootings.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 04/17/21
You're trying to say that chicago has an 'imported gun' problem? From Indiana?
Smart Guns, as near as I can tell, don't actually exist yet in a commerially viable form.
CA wanted all guns to 'stamp' a uniqute identifer on shell casings, but THAT is pretty much beyond current manufacturable tech.
FBI System has a reasonable denial rate AND is thorough. Too bad only 30 states and some additional territories use it. I wonder the result if it were a universal system?
Too much is never enough
copy this to paste & post the next time it happens
because it will
it will save time
regards,
as I've posted over and over here before, will you put on a uniform and help go after the hundreds of millions of weapons already in the hands of the populace?
Will you vote to empower the authorities to conduct searches and seizures?
I'm waiting.
Visit my Image Gallery
Do you own any guns?
You suggest an extreme scenario to suggest no alterations to the 2nd Amendment would work. There are many things that would provide meaningful reduction in gun deaths if people would just stop the all-or-nothing rhetoric.
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