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75.39.16.143
The incident was tragic all the way around.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
Follow Ups:
There have been several assertions in this thread regarding yellow-colored tasers.
Does anyone here know if the taser which the officer was carrying had any obvious/large yellow sections on it? Or, was it all black? Does anyone here know? Of the police officers I often see at the grocery store or wherever, I don't ever see any yellow equipment on them.
Anyone here who knows (not speculates), I'd be interested.
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
"SSA McGinnis later collected and reviewed the layout of the defendant's duty belt. SSA McGinnis observed that the defendant's handgun is holstered on the right side of the belt and her Taser is holstered on the left side of the belt. Both grips/handles of the defendant's Taser and handgun face the defendant's rear, and the Taser is yellow with a black grip. SSA McGinnis noted the defendant's Taser is set in a straight-draw position, meaning the defendant would have to use her left hand to draw the Taser out of its holster."
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
Thank you!
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
"609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both: (1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another; or..."
Please note that culpable negligence is not simple negligence. The state has the burden of proof and my guess is that Kim Potter will be acquitted and will get her job back or at least a fair severance.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
Fair Severence? A matter of opinion, since I doubt (will wager 100 Pesos) she doesnt' work THERE again.
She'll even have trouble finding other emptoy. Trouble will unfortunately follow her the rest of her days.
And all it takes is some JERK wanting to 'make their bones' to administer 'street justice'.......
All around sad.
Too much is never enough
That officer used lethal force in a situation that clearly didn't call for it. Despite details of why he faced a warrant.
I really have difficulty understanding the challenge of textural feedback between the devices that were confused.
Most cops I've seen who carry both taser and firearm mount them on the hip. Usually, available belt space only allows for carry of the two "tools" very close to each other on the same side of the body. To draw either weapon the cop must necessarily swing his hand toward both weapons at the same time.
I say that "textural feedback" isn't always the most obvious indicator of which of the two closely spaced weapons one might be drawing in a stressful, adrenaline-charged situation.
How cum ?
Because, when a person makes contact with a weapon on the draw, the index finger and thumb are usually the first of five "feelers" to wrap around and make contact with the weapon, followed by the middle finger. Lastly, the two remaining two fingers eventually complete the wrap sometime in the remaining interval as the weapon is being raised for fire.
So, those first two or three fingers constitute the major gripping extensions on a pistol or taser during the early stage of the draw. The initial sensory (or "textural") feedback a person refers to when drawing either weapon from the hip comes from the first two or three fingers to make contact with either weapon.
Hmmmmm, you say ?
Well, taser pistol handles are usually much shorter than typical Glock firearm pistol handles because a full hand grip is not required on them to resist kickback from bullet fire during shooting, so it would seem that it should be easy to distinguish between the two gun handles. But Glock semi-automatic pistols handles and most of the taser pistol handles pistols I've seen have very similar (molded plastic ergonomic) shapes to them. So when you're in a hurry to draw either weapon, the two weapons could potentially feel similar enough to cause confusion.
You figure it out from there.
strewth!
who are you and how did you get E-stat's login?
Good old Pat.
another interesting bit is that Yahoo! filed that under 'money'
hmm ...
We have been developing body armor performance standards for over a decade. We have lots of law enforcement engaged and have great relationships with locals. We were invited to participate in some training including active shooter training. The scenario was clear the cafeteria in a mock school were an active shooter was reported. So I've got 12 Lbs of body armor on, gun drawn and we (me and an experienced trainer at my back) turn the first corner and a dummy with a Polo shirt is there. DON'T SHOOT the kids is screaming through you mind....and my pits are soaked.
I did not shoot the kid, but a did take a shot at the mock perp. Unfortunately in the after action review, I took the shot when the perp was in front of a window to the playground with little kids there. Not in policy or training.
The job needs the right type of people, great and continuous training and effective equipment. The right people are likely rare.
Gsquared
uh huh ... there are uniform practices observed by all LEO's ...
your service weapon is always carried on your strong side for two reasons
the instinctual use of your right or left depending on your 'handedness' because micro-seconds count deploying lethal force, along with greater strength defending the weapon when holstered ... Taser are always carried on the opposite side because of this
a veteran LEO can never confuse the two just because of this, not to mention shape, weight, and even in poor light the color
this applies even to the vast majority of rookies
so your point about the right people earns much more weight by circumstances ... when it's ingrained that your work environment is a battlefield instead of a community, mistakes common to battlefields are more likely ... troops are quite often killed by 'friendly fire', cops are as well, but when those they 'serve and protect' are seen as the enemy ... ?
so further to your point even 'citizens' get caught in the middle, or background line of fire as the case may be
regards,
This particular instance doesn't appear to be a case of police brutality, a self-righteous mob wants Officer Potter's blood.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
And until us civilians have the confidence in our Police Forces being returned to some
reasonable, consistent standard where the bad, yahoo cops are eliminated effectively and
the average person can easily DISCERN the difference between wanton police brutality and
a stupid mistake, people will stay self righteous and angry.
Derek Chauvin's shithead behavior is still too fresh in too many minds and isn't going away
anytime soon and it will affect our society for the foreseeable future (no matter his verdict).
I have friends that are cops and family that were, none of them signed up to be urban
soldiers. The current policing mentality needs to change.
In the meantime Osama Bin Laden keeps chalking up points for his brilliant, nefarious
impact on the USA in (hopefully) Hell.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
*NT*
Maybe she should have been in another line of work. Cops can not shoot folks by accident.
Gsquared
has died in prison (which is fine) having intentionally ruined thousands of
peoples' lives and likely leading to many more deaths than Potter.One makes a stupid (supposed) mistake and the other acts with intentional malice.
Also tragic.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure
Edits: 04/14/21
...yes, BS traffic stop, poorly trained officer, but still, someone with outstanding warrants... Where do you draw the line?
I sincerely hope that George Floyd (convicted felon/drug addict) and this kid, is NOT what the proponents of racial "justice" want to "hang their hats on". A white kid was just shot/killed by a white cop because he had a gun (an airsoft pistol) and knife. "Criminal" is not defined by color--my BIL is from Ghana, and he is a physician.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
And yes, she was executing an arrest warrant. I draw the line at not malimk her a scapegoat for all the sins of our history.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
skewered and quotation marked as it may be.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
I don't think that that cop was poorly trained. I think that she was unsuitable. Training is pretty ongoing, and she had years of experience. The body cam showed that she was freaking out. You have to be in a panic to mistake a taser for a gun. Some people are okay under pressure and some just loose it.
Some departments no longer allow car chases anymore due to innocent people getting hurt and property being damaged.
Almost every one of these incidents gone wrong involves resisting arrest. No struggling with cops, no one gets hurt. Granted maybe people don't deserve to die for some petty offense, but what are cops supposed to do? They may have to just let them go if they resist (like the car chase). Send an arrest team to the guys house later. Surround the house until the guy surrenders.
I don't see many people offering solutions. They just bitch about the cops.
"but what are cops supposed to do?" you ask 2000. Assassinate 13 year old boys with their hands up, of course. Elementary, my dear Watson.
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
is supposed to remain cool and calm when approached by same?
How, exactly does that work?
BTW
I knew one of the early women cops in SF (1980). She was a waitress I worked with.
She had a nervous breakdown one day as a WAITRESS(which is OK, shit happens).
Within two years she passed the Police Academy. Within a year she washed out (BIG
surprise!) She sued the City. She won.
Glad they caught her early on!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
...if you don't run, resist arrest, or be confrontational with a cop, bad things don't tend to happen. If you are truly "innocent" you are not prone to do any of those things.
Granted--there are cops on the forces that shouldn't be there, but that goes for any job--they just happen to have guns/tasers, so there is a greater chance of a bad outcome due to incompetence when it counts.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
If everybody was truly innocent, we wouldn't need to have any police.
Courts should be deciding the punishment.
Not cops.
You guys have martial law disguised as incompetence.
Keep Your Hands Clean,
John K
v
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
huh ... what about Second Lieutenant Caron Nazario?
Breonna Taylor? that was a good one ... a paramedic shot & killed in bed during a drug raid at the wrong address on a warrant for a perp already in custody!
here's a sad [partial] recap story header:
"108 Black Men And Boys Killed By Police"
story at the link ...
but like I said last night, same shit different pile
people will post the same opinions & points here [including yours truly] each & every time these incidents go down and it's like ground hog day
a few times is tragedy ... but c'mon, this is ridiculous
sorry to post like this to you again Dave but between you and SR ... well, you're two of the more reasonable right leaning members on AA
I'll not post anything further to you on the subject ... that's just part of the ground hog day effect, gotta try and break the loop!!
best regards,
...go after the judge that issued/signed a "no-knock warrant" for the cops to execute. A tragedy, for sure, but would someone please read the FACTS.
The police and District Attorney's office presented evidence and a request for a no-knock warrant to raid that residence. Her boyfriend (in possession of a legally registered firearm) fired at the police officers executing the warrant, thinking it was a home-invasion. Police returned fire and she was, unfortunately, killed.
No one did anything wrong or illegal. The judge should be held wholly responsible--he signed-off on that no-knock warrant. The cops just executed the warrant. The boyfriend just fired his legally-registered weapon upon an intruder(s). The cops just returned fire, as per protocol.
Unfortunate situation/outcome, but not the cops' fault.
"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP
I know the circumstances as well and was highlighting the systemic flaws
no outcome yet ... but facts / truth in these law enforcement scenario's suffer the same fate as in war ... except they're the second casualty
hell, that could have been a sophisticated 'swatting' ploy, who knows!
speaking of which, just tends to illustrates how easily the system can be manipulated for agenda or vendetta
what a world eh?
"well, you're two of the more reasonable right leaning members on AA" Maybe true but it still is a truly horrifying thought.
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
such a LTD perspective just says that you need to get out more
...between 1952 and now.
Innocent?
Not that it matters because you can't just shoot people because they resist you.
"Not that it matters because you can't just shoot people because they resist you."
Are you sure?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
You just offered a solution 2000. Not a bad one either. The notion that nobody is offering a solution to murdering minor criminals or suspects is beyond the pale.
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
What are the cops supposed to do?
It's pretty damn obvious what they're supposed to do, which is follow their training on how to arrest somebody. There is no excuse for the cops to use deadly force unless somebody's life is in imminent danger.
The head scratcher for me about this case is how can somebody with 26 years of experience on the force have a panic attack arresting an unarmed man during a traffic stop? I don't believe she shot him on purpose like some people are claiming. But surely this was not her first time in a stressful situation.
But it's a hard rule to follow if you're facing arrest on a felony warrant. I imagine that what flashes through your mind is being somebody's bitch in prison and you panic and try to run.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
There's no justification for shooting unless someone's life is in imminent danger. How hard is that to understand?
There's a lot of reasons why people resist arrest. They may be trying to escape a warrant. Or they may just panic. They may be intoxicated. Or schizophrenic. Or maybe they haven't committed any violation and are being stopped and arrested without cause, so they're feeling angry and incredulous. Or maybe they hate cops and just want to make their life difficult. But it doesn't matter. None of that is justification.
"If an arrestee is actively resisting an officer, the officer may take reasonable measures to control the subject and take him or her into custody. These reasonable measures or tactics include standing control, takedowns, ground control, and the use of less-lethal weapons such as electronic control devices (TASERs) and O.C. spray."
If we all agree on the rule, then the single moral and legal question is whether Officer Potter in that instant thought she had a TASER in her hand rather than a Glock. We can't read her mind, we can only see her actions. And we can know whether she was sober and not on drugs.
I doubt that the prosecution will find a single psychologist trained outside of North Korea who would claim that a person can never in heat of battle be mistaken in the way that Potter appears to have been.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
If we all agree on the rule, then the single moral and legal question is whether Officer Potter in that instant thought she had a TASER in her hand rather than a Glock.
Intent is far from the only moral and legal question.
If you're going to carry a deadly weapon, you have to be able to wield it safely. And if you screw up, you have to face the consequences.
Somebody is dead and it's her fault. I presume she didn't intend to kill, so there won't be a murder charge. But there will be a manslaughter charge.
You can't just kill somebody and say Oh, sorry, I didn't mean it. If cops don't want to face punishment if they screw up and unintentionally shoot somebody, they shouldn't carry guns. If they're going to use that weapon, they have to take responsibility for the outcome.
But that's not what Officer Potter said.
The prosecutor will have to prove 'culpable negligence' which requires establishing her conscious state of mind beyond a reasonable doubt.
An example of culpable negligence is someone leaving their child home alone with the pitbull. 'Oops, the baby has been eaten!'
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
They had his car, his name. He was searched and no weapon. It was a simple traffic stop. They could have let him go, and picked him up later/. No justification for the use of force. She was supposedly training rookies and used this simple traffic stop as a training exercise. Was she afraid of looking bad in front of the men she was training?
Considering the systematic murder of unarmed black men by police lately, I believe he panicked. If they were killing people who looked like me for little or no reason,(yes I know its justified sometimes if a person is a threat), I would be prone to panic and run , no doubt.
It began as a routine traffic stop but it turned out that there was an outstanding felony warrant for a bond violation. The bond was $100,000 to secure Mr. Wright's release pending trial on a felony firearms charge. The bond violation was that he failed to appear in court. The bounty hunters didn't find him (they are good at finding bond-jumpers) which means he was hiding out and not living at home. The traffic stop morphed into resisting arrest.
The rule is "If an arrestee is actively resisting an officer, the officer may take reasonable measures to control the subject and take him or her into custody. These reasonable measures or tactics include standing control, takedowns, ground control, and the use of less-lethal weapons such as electronic control devices (TASERs) and O.C. spray."
Hopefully. the jury will be able to keep the facts straight even if we can't keep them straight.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
"Senate Majority Leader Gene Suellentrop, a Wichita Republican, was arrested early Tuesday morning on suspicion of driving under the influence, fleeing officers, speeding and driving the wrong way down a divided highway."
other reports say he wanted to fight the 'donut boy' cops too!
oddly enough he didn't get shot & killed!
A thoroughly disgusting display of police brutality and indifference to human beings.
And Officer Potter was executing an arrest warrant.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
Is it normal for US police to carry their guns with a cartridge chambered?
That tells you about the mentality instilled and the value scale placed on the cop, outward.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
It is known as condition 1, meaning the firearm is ready to be fired at any time. It is standard training for Police and concealed permit holders.The only Police and Military trained on an empty chamber, that I know of is the I.D.F.( Israeli Defense Force) , they are trained to draw and rack a round to the chamber in one motion.
"Cops keep a round chambered at all times (with the safety off, if equipped). ... When loading their weapons, officers first insert fifteen bullets into the magazine. Then they shove the full magazine into the pistol, pull back the slide and then release it, which loads a round into the chamber."
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
Excellent thoughtful question b l.
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
nt
So he had outstanding warrants. How does that have anything to do with this?
Are you arguing that if someone has done something against the law in their past, it's fair game to kill them? If not, what point are you trying to make? Because it sure seems like every time a cop kills somebody, you have the same reaction, as if the victim deserved it or something.
'poorly trained officer'
was a 25 year veteran that was a training officer with two rookies in tow
'Where do you draw the line?'
excessive force & killing people in the street; 'bad character' doesn't carry a death sentence and corporal punishment is illegal; cops need to stay in their lane
'someone with outstanding warrants'
arrest them at home or work ...
'convicted felon/drug addict'
irrelevant: the felon served his time / drug addiction isn't illegal
nothing personal Dave but it doesn't matter, it will be the same thread here as always when these type incidents go down with the same points made by the same people
that's the sad part ... it's like groundhog day about systemic racism
I hope BIL from Ghana continues to survive driving while black
with regards,
The cop's job is to make an arrest - not to execute people. It doesn't matter what outstanding warrants are.
Given the massive amount of youtube videos showing cops planting evidence on black people and other bogus things the cops do - you can't actually be sure those warrants are made-up BS.
It's funny when the white kid was shooting protestors - no cop threw him to the ground and crushed his neck until he died. It's funny all those white mass shooters seem to escape unharmed.
$27m doesn't help you when you're dead.
ny
"Trying is the first step towards failure."
Homer Simpson
Is Ashli Babbitt was unarmed and shot dead without warning for the crime of trespassing and no charges were deemed appropriate.
-Rod
and I can't type!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Very confused. The logical equivalent of confusing your Glock and TASER.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
nt
"Trying is the first step towards failure."
Homer Simpson
attacked, injured (one fatally). Imagine if those traitors had been black, Rod. Imagine it.
"Nothing will stop us . . . they can try and try and try but the storm is here and it is descending upon DC in less than 24 hours . . . dark to light!" Babbitt tweeted the day before she died." A violent break in and an attempt to overthrow the government , 5 people dead, over a hundred police injured, "where's Nancy, Hang Mike Pence and you say it was just trespassing. Personally I was shocked that the police didn't open fire at will.
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
> > I was shocked that the police didn't open fire at will.
What are the police doing to stop looting tonight and for the past several days? GMAB, firing on citizens, seriously.
We do have civil rights, don't we?
-Rod
There is no civil right to violent, forced entry into the Capital to overthrow a government. What the hell are you talking about? It's like you're from another planet.
"In another tweet, she called for Vice President Mike Pence to resign and to be prosecuted for treason, presumably for not being supportive enough of Trump's calls to overturn the election."
"In the days before the shooting, Babbitt retweeted a number of messages from demonstrators headed to D.C. for the protests on Wednesday. One read: "It will be 1776 all over again.... only bigger and better." "
Yeah, 1776, the good old days. I remember it well. An estimated 6800 revolutionary soldiers died in combat. 15,000 dead from imprisonment on British ships. Let's party. Let's try to take over the most powerful government in the world. Good thing that the people who tried to overthrow our government will only be charged with trespassing.
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
This kind of says it all.
there was looting and vandalism on 1/06 along with loss of life and injury
<> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ <>
oh well
it wasn't dark though so totally different
U.S. Rep. Markwayne Mullin, R-Okla., told Good Morning America he was in the hallway behind the officer who shot and killed Babbitt.
"When they broke the glass in the back, the (police) lieutenant that was there, him and I already had multiple conversations prior to this, and he didn't have a choice at that time," Mullin said in a Jan. 7 interview. "The mob was going to come through the door, there was a lot of members and staff that were in danger at the time. And when he (drew) his weapon, that's a decision that's very hard for anyone to make and, once you draw your weapon like that, you have to defend yourself with deadly force."
no argument, that was a 'righteous shoot' for sure
Seditious conspiracy. Damage to federal property. Use of explosives. Crossing state lines to commit crimes. Those are just some of the unlawful acts listed in a September memo by then-Deputy Attorney General Jeffrey A. Rosen
The potential charges include seditious conspiracy, an ominous-sounding and rarely used criminal statute that bars the use of force "to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof."
The charge carries a maximum possible prison sentence of 20 years.
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
that's what I've read too
a lot of 'good German' defenses raised by those arrested so far
huh ... it was in broad daylight though
so yeah, different
anyway, back to police shooting groundhog day
different pile, same shit
You're going to hang your hat on that?
"Where do you draw the line?" WTF? Are you kidding me. It's sometimes ok to murder people who are no threat?
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
Didn't they get 27 mil. from the city?
I was wondering abut that outstanding warrants. Media seems to cover it up.
But no excuse for what that cop did. She needs to pay for her incompetency.
damn ... just damn
newbie! And... president of the union.
Makes one wonder what the rank-and-file is like if she's the cream.
Tragic, all around indeed.
Regardless of the amount of hours you have spent training your nervous system to respond in a certain way you can still fuck things up in a strange or stressful situation, at a moment's notice.Training for a certain outcome is not an ironclad guarantee of a certain outcome. It only takes one dark, moody morning to short circuit all of that hard-earned self-control in a split-second timeframe.
Edits: 04/15/21
there is no such concept as accidental discharge of a firearm in the US and other military. the rules are constructed to recognize the fact that a trigger is required to be pulled to fire the weapon, and a trained operator is correctly never going to pull the trigger without conscious intent .The "bad day " argument is nonsense, easily illustrated by taking the concept to the extreme and considering the results. For instance , a surgeon forgetting all the training while in a bad situation and just starting to whack away in frustration, or an airplane pilot feeling great stress and getting drunk before his flight.
People with life or death responsibilities are not allowed to have mistakes, they have mandatory training instead.
I blame the hyper style military confrontational approach used in training, and asking the police to function in situations they are not trained for.
Edits: 04/16/21
Perhaps your irony is far more sophisticated than any previously seen here?
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
it's the Midol defense!
*yeesh*
Of course it "shouldn't be". But shit happens in high-stress situations, sometimes. And sometimes it happens to the best of them.
Sad but true.
I'd say a felony conviction with no jail time and the inability to ever be an armed police officer sounds like a pretty good break to me.
.., along with being barred from active police duty for life. How's that ? Although some states don't allow for such a charge.Misdemeanor "Reckless Assault" usually refers to a charge of somehow participating in the execution of, or somehow enabling, an accidental injury or death that probably could have been prevented with better forethought or carefulness, yet implies no predisposition to carelessness or recklessness.
That, and an order to stay on probation and receive psychological counselling for a period of several years. Because she will probably need that sort of thing...
Edits: 04/15/21
maybe that should be removed?
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
"It only takes one dark, moody morning"
Where did you see that? Or, are you just making it up and incorrectly applying it to this tragic event?
****
We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.
I imagine there will be a go-fund-me campaign to raise the kind of funds required for a first-rate criminal defense attorney.
P.S. I think that Derrick Chauvin is guilty as sin for murdering George Floyd but the Kim Potter case is very different.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
That stress piles up over time, and that the longer one serves on patrol the more one is prone to make mistakes. It's very stressful and thankless work for not much pay.
I feel sorry for Officer Kim Potter. I hope she's acquitted.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
Perhaps stress was a factor. Perhaps training was a factor. Maybe she didn't get enough sleep the night before. Who the hell knows what contributed to her decision making at this point?
None of that can excuse the fact that she shot and killed somebody with no justification.
The suspect's actions fully justified tasing, the officer clearly intended to tase the suspect but tragically drew the wrong weapon.
The officer's comments immediately after the shooting show it was a tragic mistake.
Justification for tasing, OK. But she didn't tase him.
How can you feel sorry for someone who killed another? Even if it was just careless and unintentional, how can anyone feel sorry for her? I really don't get it.
There was none.
I'll do feel bad for this officer and the BART officer who also drew the wrong weapon for his intent.
I also feel badly for old people who step on the wrong pedal in their car and hurt of kill someone.
If you really don't get it that's your shortcoming.
The charging statute requires negligence and conscious risk taking. Perhaps these elements existed in the dead man but I don't see them in her actions or words.
"A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both: (1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another; or..."
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
It implies that somebody ends up dead. Nothing more, nothing less.
wouldn't exist nor would the many that previously exist on the matter
OR the ones that will exist in the future.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
no, killing just implies death
'There was none'
you don't know that ... it just happened
what if it turns out there was motive involved?
homicide / murder implies intent to kill ... they're legal terms
killing is the act, death can be a result, but not necessarily, it can be assumed
it's not necessary to have a corpse to convict for murder for instance
charged by law, manslaughter addresses death via negligence
there's also degrees of both manslaughter and murder
there can be willful negligence involved in manslaughter
is that a 'shortcoming' that you didn't know this?
probably not
killing is complicated ... and I'm not just parsing words either
To kill does not require intent.
I still don't understand how you can feel sorry for someone who causes death to another person. What about it deserves sympathy?
it can be accidental ... a guy from high school didn't properly chock the wheels on a car he had ramped while working on it
it rolled off and killed his three year old, and I feel he deserves sympathy, even though he was negligent, there was no intent
he could have been charged with manslaughter though
I know what you mean though Dave, that officer was entrusted and trained for safety in executing her duties ... the executing part exceeded her training though ... bad joke there, sorry
but who knows? maybe the victim attempted to or raped her daughter or was blackmailing someone in the family or something and the traffic stop was staged ... ? it just happened so everything is speculation at this point
but every time there's a police shooting of POC the same posters trot out the same [sort of] comments [including me] and off we go .... timing and facts be damned!!
with regards,
A citizen has been wrongfully killed.There should be a felony charge for the gross negligence that lead to the death but I'm not convinced that jail time does much except satisfy the victim's family and community's need for a pound of flesh.
It bothers me to no end that the PD, the City and the community seems to be having such a hard time getting on the same page about this kind of case.
It's also troubling that the community would think denying the officer the pension she has earned is somehow righteous especially considering the size of the civil award the victims family is likely to receive.
Edits: 04/15/21
The lack of empathy issue rises once again.
Cop kills your daughter/son/wife - someone you care more for than anyone else in the world. Then what say you?
When a judge lets a criminal off because he is unlikely to do it again - okay - so he should live in your house with your kids while you are away at work. Now would you let him off easy? Do you now go by the recidivism statistics, or would you pause and rethink them?
The first thought should always be "What if it happened to me or my family."
Just like those Anti-Covid believing numbskulls - it's fake news - Liberal hoax. Then on their death bed having contracted Covid - they sob - I should have believed - it's real after all - the Liberals were correct. Trump lied - it's not the flu after all - oh Woah is me - and they die. Only when stuff directly happens to them do they give a crap.
I agree with you* up until your last paragraph since it appears to be a mishmash of disparate moral dilemmas
*despite that, unless I'm misinterpreting, you've misread what Goober posted
regards,
I read goober's take that the officer should not get jail time.
"I'm not convinced that jail time does much except satisfy the victim's family and community's need for a pound of flesh."
If it were my family a cop pretended to mistakingly kill I would want my pound of flesh.
"denying the officer the pension she has earned is somehow righteous"
Killing someone mistaking on-purpose may be worthy of denying a pension. No different than a dishonorable discharge.
Here in Hong Kong a teacher works 30 years and is 1 month from retirement and pulls a kid off another kid - you touched a kid!! You're fired and you lose your pension.
So killing someone accidentally on purpose probably rises above that.
My last paragraph is another example of similar thinking. I don't care about the problem until it directly impacts me.
Let the cop off the hook because it costs too much or blah blah - until your kid is raped and murdered. The same with the anti-vaccine and Covid is hoax folks - when they finally get it and are dying then they care - then they want to move mountains to find a cure then they realize they lied to all along. Only then it's too late.
Far as I know she did not "pretend to mistakenly kill" or did she "Killing someone mistaking on-purpose".If she shot the kid with the firearm on purpose and is now lying to cover it up surely a murder charge and jail time is appropriate even if she wrongfully believed she was following procedure.
And to clarify, if she is convicted of manslaughter or negligent homicide or aggravated assault and did no time I wouldn't feel the law failed. That said if she was sentence up to 2 or 3 years it would be reasonable to me too.
As to someone's pension I have a hard time, regardless of the offense, see it as something that should be taken away regardless of the offense. Of course if the officer could be sued civilly and a judgement ordered then ok but I believe police officers have immunity from civil action.
Someone who lost a family member because someone ran a red light or failed to stop at a crosswalk is analogous Would there be a big public outcry if some hockey mom didn't end up doing time? Unless the person was drunk, had a history of bad behavior, or could be demonized with photos by the media (tattoos, looks like a junky or gang banger) the offending driver would probably do 0 jail time too.
The difference between this case and a bad driver case is the City will probably pay a big civil judgement something the vast majority of victims of grossly incompetent whatevers ever get.
This is a little OT but police officers are trained on how to respond after they kill people in order to avoid being charged. Most citizens could be trained to respond similarly, and in fact many who kill do know the routine and what to say after murdering someone. They walk just like the police do. If we had a required class in HS on how to avoid being charged after killing someone the prosecution rate on the normal citizens who kill would begin to approach that of law enforcement.
Edits: 04/17/21 04/17/21
I get your point but find his to be valid as well ...
... which I read as 'remove the emotional reaction for a fair assessment'
which seems reasonable because it is
but again, the incident is too fresh to make those judgments sans all the facts
as others have pointed out the tragedy is that the need to make those judgments keeps arising with distressing frequency; which tells us that something is broken at a fundamental level
regards,
Each round peg requires a square hole?
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
each tragic event requires ... the law to be applied ... hopefully fairly
it is always so when guns are discharged
even if you're Dick Cheney!!
You want to carry a loaded weapon for protection, you accept responsibility for what happens when you discharge it. Unintentionally or intentionally.
But there may not be culpable negligence in this instance.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
Heavy handed and buffoonish policing is the reward. I try not to force stuff, when the right hole is found the peg slips right in.
What sacrifice would a citizen have to make for shooting and killing a police officer by mistake? Would the sacrifice be different depending on their ethnic or financial background?
A rich white person statistically sees less jail time than a poor black person for the same offence.
And because good attorneys are expensive, the defendant's finances play a huge role. Agreed.
Ethnicity also plays a role. Depends whether the jury is the same ethnicity as the defendant or different. Sociologists call this 'in-group preference.'
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
In both cases an experienced female cop shot someone under inexplicable circumstances - a mistake that no normal person should or could make. She was actually convicted of murder, and the jury deliberated for only an hour. As much as I'm a hard left guy I'm not big on using the law for revenge, and I tend to think that there might well be a psychological explanation. But I won't lose any sleep over her fate.
I think the charges have prompted by the upcoming verdict in the case of George Floyd's killing. Imagine the public rage with that officers acquittal and no charges in this case?
They can always drop the charges against for Officer Potter down the road.
I'm not familiar with Minnesota law but my understanding is this seems more like negligent homicide than manslaughter - but all States are different. She's chose the job and has taken her pay, seems to me if she committed a crime she should be held to account for it.
Every police shooting is different. IMO the victims family here will get a large case civil settlement (or verdict). As far as the officer goes I think she's proven she's not worthy of carrying a firearm on the job anywhere and should lose the ability to do so regardless of the results of the prosecution. I think it's BS to try to take her pension and benefits.
different color weapons, different placement ("cross-draw") on the body. She was a trainer. This wasn't a high stress situation, i.e. known shooter; violent offender; night time situation; by herself.
"Manslaughter" sounds right. Unintentional doesn't absolve. A young man is dead.
With a giant male cop right there with the boy.
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
I see the Same Thing in my cop friends who serve in JAILS......
Lots of stress and many Repeat Customers.
Service of this type changes you and not necessarily for the better......
Too much is never enough
Being a cop has been a stressful and thankless job for a long time and I don't know about where you live but in most cities in North America, the pay is very good. If you aren't ready for the type of work or the stress, maybe think about a different line of work.
I would think that she's either lying or incompetent if she says she mistook her firearm for a taser. The shape, weight, colour and feel are all different and it's on the other side of her body.
Also, the longer a marginalized community is exposed to persecution, the more "mistakes" they make. The guy shouldn't have run away from a cop stopping him. That was his mistake. She shouldn't have shot him for a traffic stop. That was her mistake. Somehow, they don't seem equivalent.
I hope she goes to jail for a long time.
"it's on the other side of her body."If that is true then how in the holy F can you make a so-called 'mistake'
No wonder black people run away from cops.
Man is face down handcuffed with hands behind his back = zero threat. Crush his neck for 7 minutes because ???? feared for his safety. 4 cops vs one guy face-down hands behind his back. And they're in fear? What a bunch of chicken shit pussy cops if that were true. Policing in the USA is not even in the top 10 (not even the top 20!!) most dangerous jobs and they get paid over $60k a year!
November 5, 2020
1. Logging workers
2. Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
3. Derrick operators in oil, gas, and mining
4. Roofers
5. Garbage collectors
6. Ironworkers
7. Delivery drivers
8. Farmers
9. Firefighting supervisors
10. Power linemen
11. Agricultural workers
12. Crossing guards
13. Crane operators
14. Construction helpers
15. Landscaping supervisors
16. Highway maintenance workers
17. Cement masons
18. Small engine mechanics
19. Supervisors of mechanics
20. Heavy vehicle mechanics
Sources
U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries
U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Current Population Survey
U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Occupational Employment Statistics Survey
U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics National Occupational Employment and Wage Estimates
Edits: 04/14/21 04/14/21
and they get paid over $60k a year!
Double that.
Some $200,000.00+
Loggers- 97.6 deaths per 100k, police- 13.7 deaths per 100k. Loggers have a licence to kill trees. Police, a licence to pull you over if you have an air freshener hanging from your rear view mirror.
"It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat" Alfred E. Neuman
Whether or not it was incompetence, whether or not she sees jail time, this is NOT the first time this has happened.
The fact that they are yellow or orange doesn't seem to be enough for cops not to make this mistake. There ought to be an answer so that this cannot happen again.
Maybe do away with a pistol grip on the taser so that it feels different? I don't know, but there's got to be a way.
When enough of this crippled armament system is broken it will get repaired.
In the meantime incidents like this will continue to happen.
It goes back to the armaments manufacturer and which one has the best sales
team and the better "deal".
There's always a better way.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
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