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This guy says there's two 12" woofers, $35-38K and needs four channels of amplification.
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I was in a group that got to spend two days with the new Jubilee and listen to them with our own tracks. The new Jubilee delivers on all points. Roy Delgado worked with PWK for many years and they made plans that went beyond PWK's years. Only now has Roy been able to deliver on all he and PWK theorized. This is more than just another horn loudspeaker. It could be best speaker I've heard to date. This is a two way speaker that has amazing imaging and performance from 19hz to 20khz -3db down at 18hz. It is big but it sounds bigger. Crossover point is not detectable. This thing is a musical microscope. I'll have to sell a nut and portion of my liver to afford a pair...
High sensitivity, wide dynamic range, low distortion, and smooth frequency response. Pwk
http://www.itishifi.com
nt
You have to hear/feel it to believe it. The new Jubilee is state of the art in horn design....
High sensitivity, wide dynamic range, low distortion, and smooth frequency response. Pwk
http://www.itishifi.com
As we like to say in Brooklyn, The designers of this horn speaker had to pull a "Fugazi" (look it up) to even come close to 18 hz. !!!!!! At a cost of $35k+,for a 2 way system ?? I guess if you have the space,cash,like the looks, go for it. I sure hope it sound good---for the price.
Joe
Joe,
After having met Roy Delgado of Klipsh 15 years ago and spending time in Hope with him and others experiencing the Klilpsch Pro stuff, I sold my Khorns and got MWMs with the K402 horn. Later I got a clone of the Underground Jubilee because the factory unit only came in black. Mine was in beautiful Tigerwood.
I still have the K402 horns (my 3rd pair). Coupled with a custom phase plug and the Axi 2050 Driver from Celestion, the horn plays from 250 to 20 khz. Also Roy developed a shallower horn subwoofer for theater. He uses the same technology in the new Jubilee to get from 18-300 Hz. using Twin 12" drivers in a Ported box Inside the Horn.
The secret is having a custom Digital Crossover with PEQ and Time Delays to make the whole thing flat and Phase Coherent. Considering the bandwidth, and since Amplifiers with lotsa watts are cheap, this is how he can perform to this level. I had Jubilees for a year and they got down to 30 Hz. with very little PEQ. Now that the back chamber for the ports is huge, I'm not surprise he can get theater subwoofer performance out of that horn, but it is a HYBRID design to keep the Cubic Feet reasonable.
When people say horn to me, I assume it is an actual horn, that is guided by physics and physical parameters. If it was said up front that this speaker is a hybrid design, I would not have questioned the low end specs. Those speakers are large enough to slip in a pair of small SVS subwoofers for all I know. I have absolutely nothing against innovative speaker designs, just be honest with a product you intend to sell to the public.
Joe
What's the difference what it is as long as it meets the spec. and it sounds good? I prefer "actual horns" too (Danley, Edgar, Klipsch, etc.) but there's other hybrid technologies that perform well. I believe in using all the methods available to get there, regardless of nomenclature on combinational elements to make the synergy happen!
No one is "lying" from the Klipsch Camp. It's a speaker cabinet that looks a certain way and occupies X amount of cubic feet of space in a room.When fed music signal, the sound it produces at a specific bandwidth at X amount of distortion/clarity, period.
Now for those who want to get technical as to "how it's achieved," if it's that important:
Then one could say it's about a 5 1/2 foot folded front horn bass unit with a built in subwoofer that uses the back wave of the double 12" cones in a resonant cavity which is fed into the volume of air and operates at frequencies below the natural horn's low cutoff. The upper range above 300 hz. or so is fed to the world's most advanced, single diaphragm compression driver into a Hybrid Formula, straight axis mid/treble horn that contains a custom phase plug. The speaker makes use of an AD/DA converter that modifies the resultant waveforms to compensate for the acoustic behavior of the driver and the room, yielding a low distortion response with an 18 hz to 20 Khz. bandwidth.
So if it's 2 Front Loaded Horns from 50-20,000 Hz. with a bass reflex box with many ports to function as a built-in generator at Sub Woofer frequencies of only 1.5 octaves vs. the other 8.5 from the horn portions, with PEQ's to flatten it all, where is the "LIE" from a marketing perspective exactly????
So does the implication mean that the only way to NOT lie is to have MONO Full Horn Subwoofer the size of a Refrigerator (that also uses a 6 db boost below the horn's cutoff because the horn is too short as a subwoofer and never reaches 20 Hz.) between 6 straight axis horns the only way to do this, a la Bruce Edgar????
Where do we draw the line in the Semantics vs. Physics game, I wonder???
Edits: 01/09/22 01/09/22
DSP isn't exactly a secret, it's been SOP in pro-sound since the EAW KF850. The physics dictate that at 18Hz, and likely to 30Hz, this box is operating as a bass reflex, with sensitivity well below what it is above that where it is horn loaded. DSP can account for that, but at the cost of driver excursion and amplifier power. You're not going to get all the way down with an SET.
Yes. Physics is physics. Nothing new except Roy basically put a Klipsch Cornwall box inside of a horn, whose ports are feeding a VERY tight corner in the same space we call a Horn.
The low end extension is only a small part of the story of this speaker. You will have to hear it to understand. You are either a heard or not. When it is out in the wild just listen to it.
BTW I saw Fugazi live in the late 80's many times.
High sensitivity, wide dynamic range, low distortion, and smooth frequency response. Pwk
http://www.itishifi.com
Following the OP link to the presentations by the Paducah guy is a short video by Roy Delgado who reveals that the woofer in the new Jubilee is in a bass reflex box where the front of the woofer and three ports fire forward into the bass horn. Bill Fitzmaurice wrote an article in Speaker Builder some time back about such a configuration, but someone else had already thought of it back in the 50's and patented it. It would be interesting to see a frequency response graph of the bass horn output of the new Jubilee with, and without the DSP and EQ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4zF8DQn3_0
Paul
I don't care what's firing into the horn because it all comes down
to the horns cutoff freq. due to size limitations.
Conor
It looks like neither you, me nor Bill believe that horn will actually go down to 18 Hz, but PWK did mention that "dirty tricks" were needed with horns, and that outlaw vented box plus what must be considerable EQ sure fits that description.
Paul
I figured some EQ trickery involved. Horn is non-existent at 18 Hz.,
so it's trying to force it out of the BR chamber. Not a good situation.
But hey, it might sound fantastic, I'd read an independent review, but
not from PWK or anyone affiliated.
The only way PWK could review it is through a psychic. If he did he'd be totally honest about it, including if DSP was involved. Bose,OTOH...back when there were dedicated Bose listening rooms set up by Bose they got some really great results. What customers in those rooms didn't know was that Bose got those results with DSP not available to the public, which in those days ran around $5k.
"Don't pee on my leg, and tell me it's raining". Or in this case:
"Don't EQ the crap out of it, and tell me it's a great speaker".
Eh, Bose?.
I don't want or care about 18Hz. Or even 30Hz, especially out of a horn.
Just a solid 40, I'll be happy.
amen!
18 or 35?
i have a bigger than average room 15x27x13h.. yet my duntech sovereigns produce more bass than the room can handle. i will have to try room treatment. but more sensible woudl be to get a smaller duntech. by the way, i keep the sovereigns just to help me voice the horn system i am building. but the problem is real. bass below 40 is a problem. i am hoping my tht sub (on the way) wont go below 35.
I like the 25Hz I get out of my horn, when it's there, which is seldom. Movie directors went LFE crazy after it became widely available, but they've backed off on the really low stuff since realizing that probably 95% of audiences didn't have gear capable of reproducing it, including in theaters.
I'm not a big movie person, I do have some P.E. Bass Shakers, I've never used, probably won't. If I'm using say, LaScala's, I'd used powered subs to fill in below 50 Hz.
IMO if you don't extend response by an octave subs aren't worth having, and if you've got high sensitivity mains you need high sensitivity subs, which brings us back to horn loaded.
It's not that I'm a big movie person, but I've got 55 inches of TV on my wall, along with Amazon Prime and Netflix, so while I haven't watched a DVD in years I've got access to thousands of movies. Besides, when my TV is on so is my home theater system. Even the weather sounds better in 5.1. I've never heard my TV's internal speakers and don't ever plan to.
Why couldn't I just adjust the powered sub level to match the
horns, why would I need high sensitivity?.
If you're getting out of the LaScalas what they're capable of no direct radiator sub will keep up, unless it's so large that it might as well be a horn.
X 2, 6-8 cu. ft. BR using 15",would do fine up at normal listening levels.
I know the limitations, I'd be well within that.
Edits: 12/01/21
Hmmm I would say that depends on your room and your listening habits.
I use Peavey FH1 bass horns loaded with Eminence Kappa 15C, actively crossing to a pair of JM Lab / Focal Electra SW900 - a direct radiating subwoofer with 13inch driver in a "big" reflex enclosure, facing down - and to my ears, it does work, even tho a horn loaded sub would be better - there is just no way my second half would take the FH1 AND a huge horn sub in our living room. Two good normal subs are OK. Sometimes you can hear the subs being a tiny bit "slow" compared to the horns, but on most program material, it works fine and is certainly better than no subs at all (to me at least). Compromises, compromises...
and by 'keep up' you mean?
please clarify ...
with regards,
Dynamic tracking I call it. That as output rises the sub output matches that of the mains so there's no tonal change as volume increases. Back when I was a big time horny I used a pair of JBL Pro 4648s from the famous JBL tent sale to augment my Altec A5s below 100hz. With 6db of EQ at 30 hz and wall placement the JBLs were flat to 25hz and dynamically tracked the Altecs. The sound was robust.
Tom
Robust is putting it mildly! Back in the day you had a shoot out scheduled at your place with those JBL's, an Edgar Seismic and one of Tom Danley's Labhorns, which unfortunately you had to cancel for work. Your rig was the only direct radiator sub I've heard that can run with the big horn subs for extreme dynamics, with the exception of a neighbor's EV 30W heard many decades ago.
Paul
nice! so they 'kept up'?
I wrote about that configuration in a 50Hz horn, but never used it for sub bass horns. In that application I found that a sealed rear chamber works just as well, so the added complexity of venting the chamber into the throat wasn't justified. I still vent the chamber into the throat with some of my midbass horns, but response doesn't go much lower than venting outside of the horn, and there is a decided sensitivity step below the horn cutoff frequency. Judging by the horn path length that's possible with this new Jublilee it can't have a horn cutoff frequency much below 35Hz, so if it's -3dB at 18Hz that's the product of EQ.
Bill
I fooled around with the idea following your original article and reached similar conclusions, but it looks like Roy Delgado read your article and concluded that the trade offs were worth it for the new Jubilee, along with a lot of EQ of course.
Paul
Or he didn't read it and went back over ground already trodden. I've found that the main benefit to venting the rear chamber into the horn throat is a reduction in chuffing of the port output, in the same fashion as flared ports reduce chuffing. That should come as no surprise, as below Fc the horn isn't a horn, it's a flared port.
how much does 1 nut and 1 liver cost. thanks
About the same as one pair of PWK 2022 Jubilees. ;^)
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Nt
15 years ago I heard this setup with Lamm amps and the experience is still a benchmark
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
IIRC that was a Siemens horn system?
Recall hearing it at CES in the early 2000s and, if I could figure out how to duplicate it I'd cash in the CDs we are holding for that upscale nursing home entry fee and I go for it.
Not exactly sure why, but even after hearing more than 100 different setups since then, it still stands as one of the paramount experiences
I would loved to have been there.
Interesting upper horn, seemingly space saving compared to typical multi-cell horns I'm familiar with. Do you happen to know anything about it?
Klangfilm Bionor - cinema speakers
They have smaller and even bigger brothers
You can see fairly current pics of them in his home installation, again with Lamm amps, on the What's Best Forum. There is some cool lit on them posted on the internet if you Google.
Edits: 11/17/21
The new Jubilee doesn't have two 12inch per channel; it's a different design from the "normal" (previous) Pro jubilee. I believe it has a single 15inch.
and I'm guessing they know their market.
OK, not the 75th anniversary model above but that's the application, I'm guessing.
Anyone with a home big enough for a dedicated home theater room with that sized projection system will have no trouble with the price.
And they won't be looking at the speakers while the movies is playing.
I can't believe that Klipsch can't make it a finished looking speaker. Slapping a piece of MDF of the front isn't the best approach. They could have had something that didn't overhang the edges of the horn mouth and that also looks good from the sides.
Understand the pricing on the basis of 2-way performance vs. competition in that price bracket, but indeed the company appears to be missing the aesthetic/industrial design bit. People who drop that on a pair both deserve and expect competitive aesthetics. Might as well leave them "decorator"/utility if the consumer needs to hide them behind something, IMO. Either me or the mothership is Tone Deaf on appearance circa 37-kilobucks.
There's another long time Klipsch devotee who upgraded from Khorns and a Belle Center to just 2 Danley SH-50's with 4 Epik subwoofers that have twin 15" drivers each.He's not happy about the looks either.
Edits: 11/16/21
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