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I've never liked the 3-upright pole method used by Avantgarde to support the horns on my Unos - it is positively ugly and looks somewhat Heath Robinson in appearance - so many years ago I bought from AG a set of 8 curved shims that they use on Trios to fix the tweeter horns to 2 uprights. These allowed me to ditch the round upright and clamp both tubes directly to the remaining 2 square uprights. A big improvement in appearance, although the horns were not dead centre above the subs.
Recently I've been working on a scheme to get rid of all the scaffolding and the result is shown here. Although the new brackets were designed for my Unos, the keen-eyed will notice these photos are of Duos. The brackets did not require any modification and now support the horns of my recently acquired Duos.
I've been careful to maintain (and in fact improve) vibration absorbsion using rubber bobbins (as AG use) and by supporting the horn tubes on Sorbothane pads. Apart from the new F-shaped brackets, most of the fittings come from the left-over box of bits saved from dismantling the Duos.
The horns are in identical positions in terms of height (middle holes in the old uprights) and the distance from the listener compared with the subs. They are rotated 90 degrees but that won't affect the sound, and they are restored to dead centre above the subs. Unlike the standard supports, I can easily adjust the angle of the horn tubes a degree or two up or down. The frame acts as a cable tidy too, so both the incoming cables and jumpers can be completely hidden from the listening position.
Rather than use spikes which are only 9" apart on SUB217s and SUB225s, I've added stability with nice angled brackets fixed to the bottom of the subs and I've fitted these with Iso Acoustic Gaia feet. Small black plastic caps on order to plug the redundant threaded holes in the sub cabinets.
What do other Uno / Duo owners think? I'm quite chuffed with the results - these old speakers now look much younger and have taken on a new lease of life.
Edits: 06/04/19 06/04/19Follow Ups:
Peter, your innovative solution is absolutely smashing. Not only an improvement in functionality, the esthetics are a major upgrade relative to the stock scaffolding. Bravo! Will email as I'd love to see your build plans. That's kind of you to offer them.
Stunning Peter, congratulations on an idea well executed.
I still have my Duos going on 16 yrs too.
Smart845
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Thanks for all the kind words. No one seems to prefer the standard Avantgarde supports - I'm pleased.I'd had my Unos for almost 18 years and have always loved them. However, after this long period of ownership, I thought an upgrade may be in order, so after considerable research and home and dealer demos, I went for a nice new pair of well-reviewed Martin Logan Expression 13A electrostatics.
Despite their very different technology, I convinced myself that they SHOULD sound substantially better than my ancient Unos. Installed, bedded in and the optional ARC room correction applied, I listened carefully and my friends listened carefully, but no one thought the MLs sounded better - in fact the contrary, everyone preferred the AGs on blind A-B switching with appropriate power amplifiers - NAD M32 for the AGs and Sanders Magtech for the MLs, but several other amps were available and also tried.
What to do? Big hole in wallet and nothing to show for it. I decided to see what could be done to further improve the Unos and reluctantly to sell the spanking new and very costly MLs.
I'd had in mind using better cables and feet so Cabledyne Reference Silver and Iso Acoustic Gaia IIs were bought.
The scaffolding-removal had long been on my mind, so I further developed the new frame design and I commissioned them from a local engineering works.
I thought that upgrading to Duos would be a worthwhile and not over-costly plan, so a quick look at HiFi Shark (beware - a lot of dodgy ads), pointed me to a pair of excellent Duos just 120 miles away (at a truly bargain price), so I dashed down to buy them. Every inch as good as described and a bit newer than my Unos - with line level as well as speaker level sub input.
A double check of dimensions confirmed that my new frames should suit the Duos and I waited impatiently for them to be made and powder-coat painted in matt black.
Now I'm even happier - I have "new" Avantgarde speakers with a "new" and more attractive look to them, so I'll try to forget their real age and listen to music that's even more lifelike and exciting than the Unos (Stereophile's Speaker of the Year 2000) and far more so than the sadly disappointing (in my room) Martin Logans.
Anyone looking for an effectively brand new pair of ML 13As in stunning piano lack (they're really very good), or a well looked after pair of AG Unos with white horns and silver internal wiring - you know who to contact! Peter
Edits: 06/06/19 06/07/19 06/07/19
Agreed, I saw them years ago at a Chicago dealer the horns were red and the fencing,at least that's what I referred to it, we're green.
The only thing that came to my mind was gardening. But wait I'm here for audio?
Big bold tomatoes plants, unmistakably. Viva 845 integrated amplifier, nothing could make these monstrosities appeal to me.
The new look gets my vote, way cleaner.
Regards,
/// Tim W. ///
How is the sound reproduction versus the old setup?Thanks!
Edits: 06/05/19
I don't think the mods have changed the sound in any way.Using the original upright pole supports, the poles are protected from sub vibrations because of the rubber bobbins that fix them to the sub cabinet, but there's no vibration damping between the poles, mid and top horns - though this is far less important.
With the new brackets, I'm using the same vibration damping between the sub cabinets and the frame (but 3 bobbins rather than 6) but I've now isolated the horn tubes from the frame, so inter-horn vibration is minimised. Whether this makes any audible improvement I frankly doubt!
The new outrigger feet using Gaias offer positive improvements in 3 respects. They add stability compared with the standard options - 4 spikes 9 inches apart, or 3 soft feet. They isolate the speakers from the floor (timber boards over screed over concrete), which should be good, and they won't damage my flooring.
The purpose of the exercise was to improve the looks of the speakers by getting rid of the hardly attractive "scaffolding", without detracting from these speakers' wonderful sound. I think I've achieved this and perhaps marginally improved the sound too.
As far as I'm concerned, the considerable thought and planning effort, modest engineering cost and simple installation has been very well worthwhile. The old upright pole system can easily be re-instated if ever needed with no damage to the speakers.
Edits: 10/21/19
You know, how a system looks does have a subconscious effect on how it sounds. It is sometimes hard to overcome a hideous layout, even if the system sounds good.
Great job! Enjoy it!
8^)
Just beautiful! My AG Duo Omegas are jealous! (Well worth the upgrade if yours are the regular ones BTW). I've always enjoyed photos of your set up as its so much neater than mine.
Its interesting that you are using the Isoacoustics Gaias. I did try them on mine and while they did exactly as advertised (a really excellent product and made here in Canada to boot) in my situation the result was a bit too detailed and clinical for my tastes and made the AG speakers sound a bit less fluid and cohesive so I went back to a simpler floor coupling. I noted Jim Smith's response here as well and want to give him a richly deserved shout out for all the help he gave me over the years to optimize the sound of my Omegas (his tips in his book Get Better Sound were invaluable in dialing in these wonderful speakers which I've had for more than ten years.
No relation to Jim but just grateful for his experienced guidance.
I'm glad to see another happy AG owner (and with such an amazing listening space)
Keep posting if you come up with other ideas that I can dream about incorporating.
Lee
Thanks Lee - I'm glad you approve. The Gaias are a recent addition and I'm still assessing them. I'm using Gaia IIs but the weight really needs Gaia Is.The new outrigger brackets come with cones fitted with very small rubber inserts that aren't up to the AG's weight and pop out if you try to move the speakers - scratched floor! With cones removed, Gaias or M8 spikes can be used instead.
The cost of the F-shaped brackets was quite modest and could be modified to have the horn tubes slung under the forks instead to sat on top. This would be better if you don't have the curved shims as I doubt AG would supply them now and they were quite costly, or you could get small rubber wedges or equivalent to keep the horns stable and secure.
If you're interested, I'd be happy to send a drawing with dimensions, modified for under-slinging and the short list of small parts required. Only 3 or 4 holes need to be drilled into the back of the sub cabinets for the frame and the feet brackets are each fixed with 3 small screws. The whole job can be done in a couple of hours, with a willing helper needed just to support the horn tubes while the bolts are being inserted.
Mine are unmodified Duos but if a pair of Omegas turn up, I'll consider getting them. Peter
Edits: 06/04/19 06/04/19 06/04/19
Thanks, Peter, for the generous offer. I'd love to have the plans if you don't sharing them as they are beautifully thought out and executed. They may never result in an actual product being produced at my end but would certainly be aspirational and may actual motivate me to follow your lead. My email is in my profile.
BTW: The Duo Omega upgrade used to be available as a separate item for retrofitting to the original Duo from AG though probably not available as a production item anymore. As you know, the speakers are magical with or without that mod so I'm sure you have much happy listening available in the years ahead.
All the best
Lee
Lee
Not sure that the AA mail service is working as I've sent you 2 emails.
Please send a note from your address to my Username (my email address) and I'll send you drawings. Peter
Thanks, Peter. Will do. I see that the email address in my profile did not update when I tried to change it which is why it seems to be not working at your end. I'll sort that out later but will send directly to as suggested. Thanks again in advance
Lee
Excellent design and execution, cawson. My hat is off to the quality of your craftsmanship
Thanks Don. I'm happy to take credit for the design and installation, but a small engineering works in Gosport deserves the credit for the workmanship.
I must say, I was expecting these frames to be less well finished. The joints are completely invisible and the tube ends (where I was expecting to have to use plastic plugs as AG use in their uprights) were all welded over with small steel plates. The powder coating job was excellent too and almost identical to the AG paint.Total cost for the 2 F frames and 2 small angle brackets was GBP180. With the few other fittings readily available from Ebay, the total cost was about GBP215. That excludes the Gaia II feet (558 for 2 sets of 4) and the brackets for the feet (68 for 2 sets of 4), although the original M8 spikes could have been used instead of the Gaias if you don't like isolation from the floor.
About 2 hours per speaker work on my part to dismantle the Duos and install the new hardware was time well spent as the results have given these old speakers a fresh new look - and I can easily restore them to their original appearance if I ever wanted to sell them. This seems increasingly unlikely as they still sound better than anything else at twice their new cost! Peter
Edits: 06/11/19 06/12/19 06/12/19
I Like!!!
Best regards,
Jim Smith
Thanks Jim - good to hear from you.
Sorry I didn't buy my Unos from you but you were 3000 miles away! I also thank you for your list of "100 Recommended CDs" that you suggested in your Stereophile ads.
Peter
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