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Hi Guys I'm looking for the best solution for a subwoofer to use with my 105 dB sensitive Beauhorn Virtuoso speakers! As you can see directly below, the Beauhorn's employ the use of both front-loaded & back-loaded horns. Without a doubt they're the best sounding pair of single-fullrange loaded speakers I've used to date!IMHO in my audio room at present, I feel they need some support from 80 Hz and below. But my problem is I don't know what type of subs I should use!?!? Is Tom Danely's tapped horn the way to go? Should I build Bill Fitzmaurice's designs? Or is Ed Schilling's bucket subs the way to go? I would deeply appreciate any help or advice anyone here is willing to share with me concerning this matter...
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Edits: 05/03/17Follow Ups:
I use DIY tapped horns (stereo) to mate up with my front loaded horns and they integrate seamlessly. They are 7 ft tall but only 14" square. Driver is Definimax 4012HO. If you are up to construction I can send you the sketch to build. I use an active xover and Crest pro amp to drive. Highly recommended.
Jim
Jim although I'll have to pay a friend to make these DIY tapped horns for me. I'd be very interested in taking you up on your offer! So yes, please send me the sketch to build. Can you roughly estimate the cost of material's needed to build them?
I'm listening to: Make Someone Happy by Sophie Milman
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Jim has the PERFECT listening room set up to utilize infinite baffle bass.
For the life of me, I can't figure out why he won't do it.
Those 4012HO drivers are superb --- for mid bass.
Hello,
why not take 6-8 ALPHORN`s with 6,5" driver fast enough for the Lowther,
or 3-4 ECKHORN with 8" driver, in 22 qm down 35 Hz
http://www.hm-moreart.de/13.htm
http://www.hm-moreart.de/15.htm
hm-moreart DIY horn speaker
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm
What drivers are you using?
I never understood something about the Beauhorns. To get much sound reinforcement at lower frequencies (150 to 500 hz) to bring up the efficiency of something like a Lowther, the front horn would have to be much larger than that of the Beauhorns. If that is the case, then how do the Beauhorns achieve that level of efficiency? Is the front horn just for show? Maybe the Beauhorns utilize a very small compression chamber to balance out the frequency response?
One thing I found with my Hedlund Horns is that the back horn has to be very well braced to get great quality midbass from them. You can ask what Paul Butterfield about that because he did the same thing to his Hedlund Horns.
The subwoofer you use depends on what you want to use the system for. If you only need response down to 30 hz for audio, then a small boxed subwoofer, such as a Rythmic would be fine. If you want to go lower for home theater type stuff, then you will need something with more oomph. Another idea is to check out the push-pull slot loaded type subs (push-pull sealed box, vented box, open baffle...).
I had a Genesis servo sub (a single 15 inch driver) with my Hedlund horns, and it worked out very nice for audio.
Retsel
Hi Retsel,
I'm using Lowther DX4 drivers in my Beauhorn Virtuoso cabinets. I may be mistaken but I read somewhere that the front horn of the Virtuoso covers frequencies from 300 Hz and above. I feel the back horn covers sufficiently down to at least 50 Hz at all times and sometimes it seems lower. I used to use Sachiko back loaded horns and having heard Paul's Hedlund horns many times at his home, I know:
1) The Sachikos were the better sounding of the two designs.
2) I prefer the Beauhorn over the Sachikos.
As far as the horns I'll use as subs, obviously the lower the better, but that being said, 30 Hz to 90 Hz would probably be sufficient for my needs 95% of the time. I want to get these subs right the very first time, so I'm NOT rushing into anything. So far I 'm leaning towards using a pair of tapped horns, with a couple of great plate amps...
I'm listening to: Make Someone Happy by Sophie Milman
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
I think the DX4 drivers are very nice. Most people say they prefer the "A" series of Lowther drivers to the DX series, but a few prefer the DX series over the "A" series.
As far as what frequency response that the Beauhorn front horn accentuates, I recently did a literature search on this forum, and ran across a post by Thorsten Loesche who stated that the front horn of the Beauhorn boosts frequencies down to 300 hz. That may be what you are referring to. I still don't understand this statement giving the size of the front horn mouth, though.
I suggest that you high pass the DX4s at whatever frequency that makes sense to preserve the midrange. If the Lowther DX4s try to reproduce lower frequencies, the midrange will distort. I have 15 ohm DX4s and the x-max is 3 mm. The 8 ohm variety of the Lowther DX4s has only 1 mm of x-max. Also the 15 ohm Lowther DX4s don't have the 2khz frequency bump like the 8 ohm variety does.
My Lowther DX4s are on open baffle and I high pass (1st order) the DX4s at 100 hz, maybe a little higher. Even at that fairly high frequency, some significant bass rich music can still cause issues even with the high pass. I figured out that I likely need to add a second order to the high pass crossover. You are likely in a better place than me because the backhorn will provide some loading to the driver at lower frequencies to dampen the cone movement.
Have you compared the doorknob diffusers to the holey doorknob diffusers that Lowther sells? I saw that Dave Slagle still uses the bullet style of diffuser with his Azura horns. That maybe because the Azura horns have a faster expansion compared to most horns. He, of course is using his field coil Lowhters, and maybe that makes a difference.
Retsel
I keep seeing replies about horn loaded subwoofers or tapped horns, and indeed that would probably be the "ideal" situation
However, IMHO some compromise can be made.
I'm using LaScala style three way horns with Peavey FH1 bass horns, but the subwoofer I use is a direct radiator 15inch Beyma driver (I can look for the reference) in a big vented box.
That's what most cinemas do.
If the sub is "slower" than the bass horns, I can't hear it - but it may well depend on your level of expectations. I think it sounds great. And in a domestic environment it is certainly more than powerful enough to keep up with the 104dB efficient horns.
I believe optimisation and placement has more effect on perceived "speed" and blending than the actual type of sub used... but it's just my limited experience talking!
Kanedak just how large are those direct radiator, 15 inch, Beyma driver's big vented box, enclosures? And what Beyma drivers are you using?
I'm listening to: Make Someone Happy by Sophie Milman
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Don't over-analyze.
If you have a corner AND
- If you can live with 40 Hz, build a bill fitzmaurice tuba 18 - or maybe the quarter pi horn sub popular on the klipsch forums
- If you can live with 30 Hz, build a bill fitzmaurice table tuba
I've built both the BFM designs mentioned here BTW. The table tuba is a "bit" looser sounding than the T18 but digs lower . The T18 is tight sounding and cleaner - but might not get low enough for some genres of music but ultimately horns subs in general just tend to do their job and are not acoustically obtrusive / offensive.
Hi Tom:
Integrating a sub with these is a bear. First, because the horn is loaded by the back of the driver, it means that bass is out-of-phase. And then, because the bass has to travel through the horn path, it has a delay. If at all possible, get a subwoofer amp that has variable phase response. This allows the best integration with the time delay of the horn. Be prepared to spend some time getting integration right. For what it is worth, Rythmik subwoofers are what I prefer.
If you really want high efficiency, plan on building a closed box and then equalizing the bass response. Only alternative is a really huge box. The AE TD18H+ is a fine choice for a DIY project.
Best,
Jon
Jon Ver Halen
People all the time complain that the subwoofer is not "fast enough" to keep up with a Lowther. If it is a backhorn, most people will want to place the subwoofer in line with the speakers, hence the subwoofer will be out of phase with the backhorn and, of course, they conclude that the subwoofer is too slow.
What they need to do is move the subwoofer back until they are phase aligned with the backhorn bass. The problem is if they room is not large enough and cannot move the back horn speakers forward enough to allow the subwoofer to be moved back enough, their subwoofer will not be in phase with the backhorn bass. Then you need to phase-delay the subwoofer.
Having used Hedlund Horns for so many years, I was always surprised at how little the difference in phase between the front of the driver and backhorn was noticeable - maybe I subconsciously chose to ignore it. But others who heard my system did not seem to notice either.
Retsel
Google up Nelson Pass' Kleinhorns And his necessary Massive Sub Assembly.
Good primer on what level of involvement it requires to get Lowthers /horns to produce a full spectrum sound.
There are Far simpler paths to good sounds.
I agree with you. It is a challenging intellectual exercise to get a single driver to cover such a wide bandwidth (i.e., 30 hz to 20 kHz). But as soon as you try to get the wide range driver to reproduce frequencies below 100 hz (using a multiorder crossover on the wide bandwidth driver, or you need to crossover over even higher), IM distortion increases exponentially.
Keep the wide bandwidth drivers to above 100 hz and find bass drivers for the rest. Of course, you can likely do better at a lower price point by using a separate midrange driver and tweeter. There are coherency issues that are challenging when trying to integrate more drivers, though.
Retsel
Good point about integration, but it's incomplete.
Having horn based subs (full or tapped) means lower distortion and better transient response. If dialing in the phase is important, that is the job of the plate amplifier, not the box.
Jon thanks for the input! Hey did you ever get around to using those Azurahorns? Just wondering what you thought of them and what drivers you used with them.
I'm listening to: Cafe Blue by Patricia Barber
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Assuming you mean sensitivity not efficiency, unless you're worried the sub will use too much electricity lol.If purchasing a "powered" sub, or one which will have its own amp with gain controls the sensitivity is a none issue. I've run subs with 84db speakers, and the same sub again with 98db speakers, that's what the adjustable gain is for, to balance the subs output with the mains. And I've never had my subs gain anywhere near halfway with any setup. If you do its more than likely you have it set too high.
Martin
Edits: 05/03/17 05/03/17
Yes King of course I'm referring to the sub's sensitivity. I called it efficiency just to follow along with the naming convention of this forum, i.e., High Efficiency Speaker Asylum! Having used high-sensitivity, fullrange drivers in back-loaded horns for about 8 years now, I know the difference between a speakers sensitivity and efficiency. But thanks for the check! :> ) My speakers are 105 dB sensitive, but after reading what you. Rod and some others have posted I'm feeling better about finding a good sub to work with my Beauhorn Virtuoso speakers...
I'm listening to: Feel The Rhythm by Daria
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
How large is your room and how large a cabinet can you tolerate??.
-3dB point, cabinet volume and efficiency are ALL tied together but the only free lunch in audio exists IF your room will allow it.
Hi Tom!
The actual room they'll be put in is 15.5' x 12.5' with a ceiling the slopes from 8' to 10'. That said there's only a 4'H x 5'W wall that separates the audio room from the kitchen and then an 8'H x 3'W wall that separates the kitchen from the dining room on the other end of the kitchen. So unless I'm mistaken --- and please correct me if I am --- I believe they speakers will see a 40'L x 12'5'D with the sloped 8' to 10' ceiling.
I'm listening to: Vida by Cast
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Hi Tom
Unfortunately your room doesn't qualify for the free lunch ( good room gain).
I would have to agree with a bunch below, your best option is probably a self powered sub with an electronic crossover / processor.
You can build a high sensitivity subwoofer and use a passive crossover but that is more of a job than it sounds like and will be much larger than the alternative.
Subwoofers are the simplest loudspeakers to build, if you have had the inclination to build something, do this or maybe build a kit.
I would suggest also looking at a loudspeaker controller as used in pro-sound, these offer a wide variety of crossover slopes and frequencies and other such things which make it much easier to get a happy alignment.
If you went this route, build two,put one behind each of your speakers.
To get seamless results, you need to be able to measure the response at the transition area and if you can, set up one speaker and sub outdoors and get the time, crossover and level parts right before fine tuning indoors.
Tom I just sent you an email. After you read it I think you'll understand why I didn't post it publically. Please let me know what you think.
I'm listening to: One More Once by Michel Camilo
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Hi Tom
The pic of your Beauhorn Virtuosos here would't open on my Mac. A web search turned up Thorsten Loesch's Enjoy the Music review of them from way back in 2000 which shows them with a tweeter. Are you running a tweet, and which one? Perhaps you can comment on the on-going criticism of the Loather drivers having an issue in the upper end, or perhaps not if this is addressed in some way.
As to addressing the bottom end, I've heard Tom Danly's Lab Horn and Tapped Horn subs both demo'd on the same system: an all horn HT rig with a total of 800 Watts. I had previously considered building a horn loaded sub, maybe a clone of the Edgarhorn Titan sub, or even a horn which used the spaces between the joists of the floor in my basement listening room for some of the horn length which would exhaust into a corner of the room forming the mouth. As I live in a 120 year old wood frame house I decided against building a horn sub. Think about it! Things which may sound impressive in a movie theater will sound utterly real in an old house with a horn sub! I've heard these things literally shake the house they are in! So proceed very carefully! Do you live in a brick house? Consider your WAF situation too. I haven't heard Bill Fitzmaurice's or Ed Schilling's horn subs.
Hope your eBay nightmare worked out eventually. How's Paul Butterfield doing? Tell him we miss his fantastic yarns and expertise here. Still listening to his Grinning In Your Face demo CD from the Midwest Audiofest '02.
Paul
Hi Paul!I disagreed a lot with both Thorsten Loesch's and another review I read about the Beauhorn Virtuoso speakers online. I suppose if those two reviewers didn't spend, the literally hours I spent, changing preamp tubes, ICs, digital wire and speaker wires. Then I too would have agreed with much of what they said. I will agree on the occasion recording I could go for a tad more top end, but 95% of the time the top end is fine "as-is"!
The nightmare you're speaking about is the 1 problem I've had selling audio components in over 15 years I've been doing so. Anyone who'd like to see that for themselves can go over to Audio Trader, check for my Mad Scientist Audio digital wire and then look for my feedback on Audiogon, eBay and here to see what it is for themselves!
As far as Paul Butterfield goes I haven't seen or heard from him in almost a year now. But that Grinning In Your Face demo CD he made is special and one I use often. Oh yes I live in a manufactured home...
I'm listening to: Vida by Cast
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Edits: 05/03/17
Tom
Okay you've been warned about those earthquakes in a box! But of course you don't have to play them at house shaking levels. If space is at a premium you might consider the taped horn. One of the CHC guys had his laying on it's side on the floor and exhausting into a corner, so it looked like a window bench. It integrated sonically very well with his Oris horns, and he lived in an apartment too.
Good luck, and keep us posted on what you decide on.
Paul
Email claudej1@aol.com
I have a great solution for you.
Thanks Claude
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
I surely respect Danley and the others. My situation is similar as my EdgarHorns drop like a rock at 80hz. A lot depends on how much you want to fool around with the subs and what kind of music suits your fancy.Adding an amp and crossover/equalizer to the package will be a challenge and possibly the best solution. Personally, I choose a pair of Velodyne SPL-1500R subs that have a setup routine with a mic that does it all automatically with their own amps. It took literally 5 minutes and then a few hours of listening to dial in the volume level. they even have different settings for Rock versus Jazz or Movies which is nice if the bass is over blown on a CD versus a record.
-Rod
Edits: 05/02/17
Rod,
Thanks for your input. What's the sensitivity of those Velodyne SPL-1500R subs? Wouldn't the disparity between 105 dB Beauhorns and them be too great?
I'm listening to: Vida by Cast
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Boy, I don't know and can't find any specs on sensitivity. I run them on the second outputs from my preamp with the 106 db EdgarHorns. Sensitivity has never really been an issue at all and I've never noticed a problem with different amps other than adjusting the volume level on the subs after a change. Thus far, I've run Wavelength Geminis with 45s, Atma-Sphere S30 at 30 watts and a Classe DR-9 at 150 watts.
It's essentailly just a one time change to increase the volume level of the subs for the DR-9 which is as loud at 10 on the preamp versus turning the volume down for the 45 tubes which require the preamp at 30 for a similar volume level. After adjusting, they seem to scale just fine.
-Rod
a
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Rod, especially given your location, you might want to get ahold of Allen Sides, owner of Ocean Way Recording Studios in L.A. He also makes some very nice loudspeakers. Even if he doesn't have something for you, he can likely point you to someone who does.Edit: I just read the rest of your post, and realized that you've already resolved the issue.
:)
Edits: 05/03/17 05/03/17
Hi Inmate!
Allen is nice a guy. We talked back when I obtained a pair of RCA LC-9A enclosures quite awhile back in 2006. I eventually sold them as my health deteriorated and my plans to restore them went up in smoke. I wrote this to tell you a lot of the horn design Allen uses is based on the horns in the LC-9A enclosure. Check out the photos of the LC-9A at the link below --- my old pair is shown in post 14 --- then look at the top two horns in Allen's Monterey speakers here: http://oceanwayaudio.com/monterey/ and you'll see what I mean. Allen was smart and apparently knew good sound and a good design when he saw one! Just wanted to share that with you. My best to you and Allen...
I'm listening to: Vida by Cast
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
high efficiency drivers have light cones, so combining the terms high efficiency and sub woofer is not correct. Tom Danley is your go to designer.
One of the Klipsch forum members(Coyote)has a used at home only Danley dual 8" Spud for sale. You might want to check into that. Good luck in your search.
moray james
I think mine has the dual 12" drivers (it's the DTS-10)
That said, I'm learning that it can be scary thunderous. Scary in that there was literally a picture swaying and I was fearing it to fall on top of the porcelain (antique?) dogs my wife has on the mantle.
I'm a bass head and love to feel the room shake.... this thing has had me jumping up at least once, to dial it down.
It really can cause (with a smile I might add) an "OMG" event/moment!
I have it connected to a bridged Crown K2
James thanks for your input. I'll check that out...
I'm listening to: Vida by Cast
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Some subwoofers certainly are high efficiency. I use Bill Fitzmaurice's HT Tuba folded corner horn subwoofers in my triamplified horn rig. They are good subwoofers; tight, controlled, tuneful, powerful and of quite high efficiency.
Don which HT Tuba are you using and what frequency spectrum does it cover in your system? Also what are you using as XO and do you use an EQ?
I'm listening to: Vida by Cast
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
I use a DEQX HDP-3 DSP for Xover, time, distance, phase, speaker correction room correction, etc. Crossovers are nominally at 200Hz and 8kHz, All slopes are 96 dB/octave. The speakers are tri-amplified. The 24"X36"X36" HT Tubas perform quite well up to 200Hz with the 96dB/8vo roll off above that. I haven't tried them out with more conventional 24dB/8vo slopes.
a good horn will boost the output of a woofer by as much as 10 db but it does not change the efficiency of the woofer itself (no box does). So a sub woofer by design is going to be a high mass device so the the resonant point will be low that is the intention of the design,you cannot make a 78 gram cone driver into a sub woofer. Sorry if I generated any confusion. This means that you need to take into account the quantity of bass that you want to generate and choose a design which will get you where you want to be so far as the bass output goes.
moray james
Yes, you can. One of the properties of horns is that they can extend response well below the driver Fs. In fact, they tend to work best when the driver Fs is higher than the horn Fc. Realizing a 20Hz Fc using a driver with 40Hz Fs and 78g Mms isn't at all difficult.
Ok I got caught short not providing enough information. I was referring to a direct radiator where the woofer needs to be heavier to reach very low frequencies. This is supposed to be a sub woofer not a woofer. Horn loading the 78 gram fifteen inch woofer is not going to make it into sub woofer territory either. A true horn loaded sub woofer is going to be massive in physical size,that was why I recommended Tom Danley as his tapped horn designs can be reasonably compact.
moray james
The THT mentioned above by Don is a 22Hz horn in 18 cubic feet. That's not 'massive' in my book. I've seen reflex that are larger, not to mention IB.
As long as you have some extra cash laying around, may I politely suggest that you re-pay, pronto - not over two years, the guy who paid for the speakers which you then sold to someone else. That would be the right thing to do. THEN, you can talk about buying more stuff.https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=hug&n=175220&highlight=thetubeguy1954&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fauthor%3Dthetubeguy1954%26user_id%3D7458%26forum%3DALL%26sortRank%3DNone%26sort%3Ddate%26sortOrder%3DDESC&r=
Or, would you rather end up in the "Shady Lane" Asylum?
Edits: 05/02/17 05/02/17
The issue has been resolved. I've been selling audio components for over 15 years and believe it or not that was the ONLY problem I've ever had I've had buying or selling audio components with anyone, ever! Sign into Audiogon, eBay or Audio Trader here and read what people who've done business with me say in my feedback. Or does one person's negative opinion override everyone else's positive opinions in your eyes?Anyone who'd like to see my feedback for themselves can click on the link below check my AD for Mad Scientist Audio digital wire in Interconnects and then look for my feedback on Audiogon, eBay and here at the bottom right hand corner of that AD. That way everyone can see what it is for themselves! In fact that Mad Scientist Audio digital wire is Sale Pending as of today! With that, I now consider this matter closed here and elsewhere. You can continue to talk about it if you so choose Inmate, but I'll politely choose to ignore you on that topic forthwith...
I'm listening to: Vida by Cast
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Edits: 05/03/17
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