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In Reply to: RE: Smaller, Vintage Altec Lansing Speakers posted by Joe Roberts on October 02, 2016 at 10:15:17
which horns for 802s, then?
Inquiring minds want to know, you know? :-)
Y'know -- no particular reason to ask, just academic curiosity.
all the best,
mrh
Follow Ups:
Good question.
I like the 32 horns better for Altec. Or some other old stuff I have laying around. ;op
Somebody has to survey currently available pro horns. I am certain there are much better alternatives to 511/811 available via retail channels.
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
I ask because... if one excises the vanes (or whatever one calls them) from an 811B, it looks quite -- Emilar-ish.
Is it the throat?
I know that Tom Brennan always liked the Emilar 'bowtie' horns, as well
I will admit that the 811B and even 511B are OK by me. Both do seem to benefit from not using them as low as their nominal XO frequencies (though).
all the best,
mrh
It is the throat.
Emilars are a lot better than 511s,I think, but I am sure there are many many more.
I guess it depends on what you have heard to compare. To me, 511s and 811s are far down the list. In fact, I can't stand them...and I listen to a lot of inferior stuff quite happily.
I bring this up to point toward a better world for those who like 5111s and reassure those who think they are nasty ringing things that they have company and that not all horns are like that.
If you like them, I am jealous!
Here is a waterfall plot of a _mechanically damped_ 511/902 measured in the anechoic chamber at a major technical university in Europe by a friend.
Throat impedance also drops off high, so not much loading at the specified 500hz.
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
Needless to say Joe, you're not the only one who's been trying to convert me to better horns :-)
This is great stuff; thanks for sharing both the data and the opinions!
all the best,
mrh
Throat impedance of 511B
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
you talking about the "Bowtie" or other Emilar horn? Seems like I have some heavy cast horns which look 811-ish in size (might be Renkus-Heinz?) besides my Bowties - the Bowtie probably needs a baffle due to its "waist" - I've not run mine for years - very nice vocals compared to the Altec cowbells
Karlson Evangelist
Edits: 10/02/16
There are Emilar 800hz horns aside from the bowtie.
I had a pair branded "Rauland" who used Emilar as a supplier. Just traded them towards a Gates table.
They can be distinguished from R-H by the greater thickness of the casting and a few other identifying features. The Renkus expos are decent too.
R-H made many constant directivity horns which seem nice, but CD isn't my thing for home listening. They were clean sounding however. Nice.
After leaving Altec, Renkus got rid of the throat disjunction that apparently causes some of the anomalies of the 511. In fact, most Emilar and Renkus horns don't actually have a throat per se...and the drivers were very thin so not much throat in the driver either.
The 500 hz horns pictured have the 2"-> 1" adapter, so they have a "throat," but it is a very smooth expansion. With 2" Emilar or Renkus drivers, you have a clear line of sight to the diaphragm from anywhere within the coverage angle of the horn.
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
is it "this horn"? - I should have the mate "somewhere" in my messits about 10.5" total from the flat mounting flange to the adapter's throat plate - the - the one to two inch conical adapter is marked "EE1-2" has a length of about 3.5" -- there's a little bit of cowbell from its "lips"
the mounting flange's outside dimensions are ~ 7.5" x 17" - 1/4" wider than a Karlson K12 ;^)
Karlson Evangelist
Edits: 10/02/16 10/02/16
Yeah, that's an EH-500. Way better than 511.
Not much mechanical ringing at all if you bolt them to a baffle, but the mechanical ringing is only part of the 511 problem. You can wrap them in raw meat and they still sound like they ring.
Far cleaner sound than the Altecs.
There MUST be conveniently available horns better than 511s for Altec 1" drivers.
Nobody is a bigger Altec fan than me. I have been using
Altec units for 30 years straight and I have a pr of 755As, a pr of 756Bs, two 32Bs, and five 802s within 15 feet of where I am sitting.
In fact I am listening to 802s right now, but I hate those stupid 511s. I tried them 10 times over decades, hoping they would work "this time."
Many seem to like them and I say they are lucky. I immediately dial in on a weird abrasive edge that drives me bananas.
------------------------------
Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
I would use 511 as a midhorn for La Scala type setups with headbanging rock - this Emilar looks awfully small for a 500Hz horn - looks like it need long studs to reach through that adapter's flange. I'll play with it soon. Thanks for mentioning its existence.
Karlson Evangelist
Edits: 10/02/16
Headbang is the best use for the 511s. Good Death Metal horn.
Also possibly great for an outdoor poolside system, which is a kind of job this sort of horn was designed to do.
Try the Emilar. Way more sophisticated sound than the Altec.
I don't like to cross at 500hz, preferring to use cones that can get me to 2 or 3k whenever possible, so I don't break up the heart of the vocal range.
An Altec 15" can't, so maybe 800 or 1200 xover by default.
Also, I sense that many 500hz horns are starting to run out of steam at or near that spec and offer little loading with a 500hz second order crossover. Certainly, the 511 is guilty if the measurements above are to be believed.
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
here's a cheap Selenium D250 Trio on a 511b - clean as a whistle on a ~500Hz sine - spl maybe around 100dB back 3-4 feet - loud enough to notice
Karlson Evangelist
Enjoy it! ;op
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
For what it's worth, I'm on team Joe when it comes to 811's and 511's. Tried 'em, many times, and just couldn't love 'em. If you can find 32's, they're much better, but don't cross them too low. I have had a few pairs of those bent horns through here and really liked the sound. Kind of wish I hadn't sold the last pair, but oh well.
I have a pair of late Lansing H-808 tar-filled multicell horns that I'm using these days. Love them more than the 32's, though I could live with either. Woofers are 414A's in just over 5 cu ft. Kind of like a 12" version of a Lansing Iconic.
For "small" Altec, my suggestion for the best you can do would be the JE Labs Altec 2-way (latest version with 32B horns). You could probably mess with the crossover, if you were so inclined, to squeeze a little more music out of them, but that's a pretty darn nice place to start. MUCH better than anything with an 806 + 811 horn, IME. Would work great with any amp from a SET 71A up to a 300B, unless you have a huge room or listen crazy loud.
"Woofers are 414A's in just over 5 cu ft."
How did you tune this enclosure? I'm working on something similar but still deciding on cabinet volume and tuning.
Thanks,
Randy
mine are built from the plans in the link. you can modify the internal volume by adding material to the interior of the cabinet, and you'll need to cut a different 'sub panel' for the 414 vs the 15 inch speaker the cabinet was designed for.
Actually, I didn't tune them at all, per se. They're a version of the Altec 612 cabinet built to mimic the Lansing Iconic enclosure. They're a little smaller than the later versions of the 612, and, while I liked the sound of Altec 416A's in them, I liked the 414A sound better. Not as much bass, of course, but much better mids and integration with the horn.
Doing some quick calculations, it seems the boxes are tuned to about 32Hz, but I may still mess with that. Easy enough to do--just cut another baffle with different size port--but for now I'm happy to listen.
Thanks! Do you have a link to the cabinet design? I can only find the standard 612 and the 614. It would appear that 4-5 cu ft seems to be the sweet spot for 414's. I suppose that I could simply wing it and tune it to 40 hz with a simple port.
Steve,
Whew! Glad you showed up, Man. I was feeling outnumbered...not that this ever stopped me before! Hahaha.
H-808s are indeed excellent but stupid rare. If I want to start naming rare horns that are better than 511s, I could go on for a while. But where does this get us?
Unfortunately I don't have the answer on currently available 1" horns but I imagine there must be something decent out there that you don't have to outbid Asian and German collectors to obtain.
Even plastic 32Cs are drying up.
The supply of 511s will outlast Keith Richards and the cockroach.
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
No problem, Joe--I got your back when it comes to 811's and 511's.
Didn't mention the H-808's as a suggestion for the OP, only to illustrate the 414A + 802/horn combo as a viable, small Altec system with most of the "magic" of the best larger Altec systems.
When it comes to current production horns, I'm of no use at all, having never tried or heard any of them, AFAIK.
Another suggestion that occurred to me today is the 601 Duplex and/or the Seville. Both have the 414 plus 3000 series tweeter. They show up from time to time on that auction site. Run the 414 full range, and bring the 3000 in around 4-5kHz (12dB/octave). Ditch the original crossovers and the horrid ugly cabinets. Put them in something like a 614 cabinet. Very reasonable size, very nice sound. If you stumble into some of the nicer vintage Altec horns later, you can always add them into the mix if you like.
Nah, you're not outnumbered -- and I won't stick up much for the 511B in particular. As a guy who owned and lived with (had my brainpan soucred by the midrange from) a pair of Klipsch Cornwalls for a decade, though -- it's hard for me to feel too bad about the 811B!
And DO note that, although there are still pairs of 511B and 811B here, I ain't using either on a regular basis.
The OP was looking for inexpensive (I think?!) sensitive fun for low/fleapowered amplifiers.
Would you really rather listen to a LaScala or a Heresy midrange? Aiyee.
;-)
all the best,
mrh
I don't do Klipsch.
But I quietly suspect Klipsch was kicking back listening to that WE gear he had and producing Klipsch for the mullets!
I see that in the early articles about the Klipsch midrange horn, he was using a nice WE 713 driver not one of those shitty Atlas units! ;op
And he was probably drinking Old Grand Dad bottled in bond and smokin Cubans, not half gallons of Cabin Still on sale and floor sweepins cigarillos.
As for cheap fun, we all know that buying 9 different cheap fun speakers gets expensive. Better to pick out a good one at the start. Unless, perhaps, if one could hear the Valencia or whatever and liked it enough to venture forth.
Gilmorneau is spot on with the JE Labs 414/32 recommendation. Not as easy as it used to be to get the parts but still one of the best moderate solutions.
I didn't take part in the great Econowave experiment but some of the parts uncovered in that sort of experimentation may have some merit.
I heard some Volti Audio horns sounding real good at the recent DC Audiofest. He's using some plastic pro horn that worked great. Deja Vu had a modern plastic horn with some unspecified vintage Japan driver....also great. They are out there but I just don't know what they are.
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Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
all the best,
mrh
that damn thuddy "bass" that never mixes with K400 - treble harmonics arrive before anything else. The cabinets are a wonder of folding and imagination plus there's plenty of pretty veneer.I do think my crappy room walls are part of the problem.
maybe I'll live to do a HORN PURGE - no more FH1 sitting, no more Sentry IV sitting, no more Edgar System 100 sitting maybe no more Khorns - then it will be "KARLSONLAND"
Karlson Evangelist
Edits: 10/03/16
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