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it's been covered on the Speaker forum (without consensus off course, but some opinions are that B&W 802 is more often used by music proffesionals), now, I am curious what are your experiences with Horn, Single driver designs etc...?
"the public is not allowed to win in any game ever invented, and that includes the American Revolution." Charles Bukowski
Follow Ups:
Just thought I'd mention that there are a number of active crossovers which also include adjustable delay for the various passbands, generally sold into the pro sound market. Rane and dbx are two manufacturers which come to mind, but there are others. Because such units often perform a variety of functions, they're generally called "loudspeaker management" devices. hth
These in OB are superb in reproducing piano. These speakers probably reproduce piano better than any other instruments. Can they beat the Quad ESL 57's, which I used to have? ...No.
David
Only pristine SACD recordings
3-way with transient perfect crossover
18" sealed and equalized woofer X-100Hz
10" sealed mid with rear absorbing stuffed tapered T-line X-1.5KHz
RAAL ribbon tweeter
Yep, can't hear 27Khz, but that's the 3rd harmonic and it would be nice to use a tweeter that does not break-up below this frequency
~96 db/watt speakers provide dynamics without severe sonic compromises
active, passive? slopes? How do you effect delay to match "acoustic centers" (for lack of a better description of delays)? I've done one passive transient perfect 3-way design; yes, piano sounds very good on it but every time I try to find a way to do a TP crossover for my Klipsch Forte's I run out of good ideas for dealing with the alignment of the acoustic centers unless I go to tri-amping and active crossover. Not thrilled by that approach.
All of my music and video is digital and lives on my computer. I've adapted BruteFIR, digital delay, and a few other DSP tools into a 3-way tri-amped Xover. I use 96db acoustic slope on woofer-mid and 24db acoustic slope on mid-tweet. I like steep slopes on bass-mid, but it is easy to hear phase flip with steep analog Xover like LR8. I recorded a pick'ed bass guitar and could easily hear the analog phase artifacts, but the digital was coherent. My woofers and midrange are from Lambda so the paper cones have very similar timbre, otherwise a steep slope cone change over is audible to me.
I like the organic sound of ported bass, but an equalized sealed box woofer would likely be best for perfect piano.
Single driver design...absolutely no way. All you can hear is compressed music.
Only over the top well tuned Hi-eff. horn speakers(active x-over/bi or tri amp set-up) can do justice to piano reproduction or anything else and no other modern low eff. design can come close.
Ever try an RCA LC9-A TWO WAY HORN SYSTEM THAT YOU KNOW FOR CERTAIN HAS ORIGINAL DRIVERS & CROSSOVER NETWORK AKA:
1) HF DRIVER MI-11423
2) LF WOOFER MI-11421
3) CROSSOVER MI-11422
OR FOR THAT MATTER RCA MI-9462 TWO WAY PHOTOPHONE UBANGI RADIAL HORN SYSTEM FROM 1950'S WITH ORIGINAL RCA DRIVERS AND CROSSOVER NETWORK
PLEASE EXCUSE UPPER CASE TEXT, WILL USE LOWER CASE IN FUTURE POSTS
Hi,
I have, I owned (past tense) RCA Ubangies with the MI-9595 horns, as a two way, with MI-1428B field coil drivers adapted to the HF horns, and a 600 Ohm passive line level biamp network.
Piano reproduction? That takes a good amp, more so than a good speaker in my experiences. VERY FEW amps can do the percussive dynamics of a piano properly, so, in my opinion, piano reproduction is really an amp design problem - much more so than driver problem.
Specifically, the amp's power supply design and execution, from my direct experience.
Jeff Medwin
This is why I suggested going active x-over and bi/tri amp approach. No single amp in this world can handle it.
Hi,
I disagree. I build amps that can do the whole banana. A few other people do also.
As soon as you add complexity, you lose performance.
1) The biamp crossover adds an unwanted extra stage, with a transparency loss.
2) If its an active biamp, tube or solid state, it sounds terrible.
3) The amps in a biamp are usually not EXACTLY alike, so there are different time constants to the presentation.
4) There is always a question, of the preamp's ability to drive more than one amp.
I believe KISS rules in highest quality audio.
Jeff Medwin
"Things should be as simple as possible, but no simpler"
Sometimes added complexity is required to meet design/performance goals. The trick is to understand when unnecessary complexity is being introduced.
eso
They were a carnival of American decay on parade, and they had no idea of the atrocity they had inflicted upon themselves–Henry Chinaski
No speaker/enclosure is going to do it all, 'specially once the leap into horn-loading is made. So a cross-over is required. The cross-over can be done well in front of the amps, or behind them/it. For active ones, the amps do not have to be the same...just like the rest of the design, they can be optimized for the bandwidth they're responding to and deliver performance exceeding the 'do it all' implementation. Or they can be different for difference's sake. Different topology and implementation to match the system to the listener's own ear.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
~!
"The Sound of One Hand Clapping is Crashing by Design" HKM
Simple passive x-over/single amp approach is a dead end.
Good luck folks.
I will agree that keeping things as simple as possible is the best way to go in audio.
All for the love of music :-)
I have no experience with the RCA stuffs but I'm sure they are high quality components. As I see it, you will never know their full potential if using the components in its original configuration.
Can u post some fotos of the RCA horn speaker systems ?
Could you list any commercially made well tuned Hi-eff. horn speakers(active x-over/bi or tri amp set-up)?
Also, could planar speakers believed that do piano very well (although not hi-eff) be considered "single driver design?
"the public is not allowed to win in any game ever invented, and that includes the American Revolution." Charles Bukowski
Could you list any commercially made well tuned Hi-eff. horn speakers(active x-over/bi or tri amp set-up)?
Unfortunately there is none available in the market. Even if there is one available, I believed no one can afford it.
The weakest link in Planar Speakers is its limited dynamic. Only a over the top well tuned horn speakers system(with active x-over in bi or tri amp configuration) can do believeable piano reproduction. I'm talking 3 ways horn system that is time aligned.
Here is a demo of my DIY Hi-Eff Fostex speakers playing some solo piano.
All for the love of music :-)
Unless I was there, no way o could tell...but thanks anyway :)
"the public is not allowed to win in any game ever invented, and that includes the American Revolution." Charles Bukowski
Sure no problem...a nice single driver crossover-less design does piano very well.
All for the love of music :-)
I don't know what sounds worse, your Fostexes or my computer speakers.
Uhhhh...your computer speakers and the horrible mic on my digital camera.
All for the love of music :-)
B & W geeeezzzzz!!!!. I remember being in a well known speaker mfg's room at CES several years ago and asking ,as I always do, "don't you have any classical piano recordings?". He replied..
"gee the piano .that's really tough to reproduce" and changed the subject. I guess that the answer was "NO".
I've owned Edgar horns, JBL S3100 and Altec VOTT(new but standard xo) and Maggie Tympanis and Spendor SP100s. They all did a reasonably good job. But in each case they flanked a baby grand piano and it was no contest. In some ways the Tympanis might have been the closest to real. Particularly when listening from another room. But B & Ws. No thank you.
Really good horns are not "horny" sounding. The real ear opener is visiting a pianist's home
and hearing a grand piano played in a fair sized living room. Many rock groups don't get that loud.
Badman makes some good points.
Because of the piano's wide range both fundamentally (it's keyboard/string range) and harmonically, the piano is an excellent test of a sound reproduction system's tonal balance. Also, because it's struck-string mechanism has a very high peak-to-average output ratio and very fast rise times, it's an excellent test for reproducing high crest factor transients. A well-made piano will have a consistent sound quality from the low register all the way up to the upper register, and a well-built speaker system and amplifier will reproduce that consistent sound quality.
To your question... A high efficiency system places much less demands on an amplifier than a low or middlin' efficiency system. This allows the amplifier to work in the lower range of it's output capabilities, and therefore reproduce peaks more easily. So the answer is most definitely "yes": Piano can be reproduced not only well on high efficiency speakers, but better than on all but the finest lower efficiency speakers. But to gain the greatest advantage and best sound, passive crossovers should be avoided, in favor of active crossovers and bi- or tri-amping.
Lastly, the notion that full-range drivers are better because they eliminate all crossovers is simply nonsense. Full-range drivers have multiple issues, not the least of which is progressively greater beaming as the audio frequency rises (which results in an undesirable ambient sound field) and, as Badman noted, serious breakup mode output, not to forget IM and Doppler distortion.
Don't forget that the amplifier's performance at low output levels is important. Some amps don't sound good at the < couple watts output. This is one reason why well-made class A amps are popular among serious listeners.
hth
There is nothing that will reveal a speakers shortcomings more then
an awesome classical piano recording
If you have midrange problems your gonna hear it with piano for sure
"If you have midrange problems your gonna hear it with piano for sure"
I agree with you on that statement. The midrange is where the single driver,Hi-Eff speaker thrives...so Single driver, Hi-Eff speakers can do plenty justice to piano reproduction.
Cables made for the love of music :-)
> > Cables made for the love of music :-)
This tag line strikes us as self-promotional, and therefore violates the rules for industry participants. Please don't use it, again. Thanks!
Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera...
Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there, black and white,
clear as crystal! Blah, blah, and so on and so forth ...
I do agree that a good piano is a very revealing test.
Female voices are also a good midrange test as they have no bass and very little harmonics. The best midrange test would be to record your wife or girlfriends voice.
That said the worst piano reproduction I have heard from a fairly expensive speaker was through a variety of Lowthers. Loud and efficient but very, very coloured and deeply unpleasant.
Definitely NOT recommended!
Th pb with Lothwer on piano:
the peak at 1000-2000 Hz and nothing
really after 12k say + saturation when
much dynamics.
They are still better in some way than
an X-O at 2k.
Have you seen the Lowther frequency response linked in a thread above?
Between 200Hz and 11kHz it varies between -10dB and +15dB, it is truly horrible!
It doesn't matter where you put the crossover point, it's gotta be better then that.
Even with one of those horrible passive jobs!
Yes I know about that. The bicone is weird.
The treble sound strange and there is no bass
(no air moving).
There might better fullrangers.
Still i could appreciate no XO and no components between
the amp and the driver. Just a resistor really changed the
sound. But it is too difficult to play many kind of musics.
I do agree that it is a good thing not to have any components between amp and driver hence my own speakers are active. In search of satisfaction I ended up with a 4 way speaker where every driver reproduces about 3 octaves, although it is questionable if there is any sensible information in the top two above 20kHz.
And yes a resistor would change the sound dramatically as it plays havoc with the amps ability to control the driver. And control is very important, especially in the bass.
My speakers,which are true single-driver, are the best I have ever heard at reproducing piano.
I know I am missing the very bottom and even the very top of the spectrum(although the treble limitations are less meaningful or significant than the bass limitations),but I don't miss anything when listening to them.In fact,as I said,these speakers reproduce the sense of a piano more completely and more faithfully to me,at least subjectively,than my 2-way horn system with active woofer modules ever did.Ditto for the fancy french 2 and 1/2 way average sensitivity speakers plus sub which I had before the horns.I tried the horn'n sub system in 4 different rooms with about 5 different amps,but it never matched what the single drivers do in the one and only room I have ever used them and with the one amp I have used.
I think it must have something to do with the completeness and coherence and seamlessness of that very,very broad middle range.There really isn't much that they don't cover.And what they do miss at the extremes seems to be much less important than the middle,which no other speakers I have ever heard are anywhere near as good at.
But that doesn't mean it is a prescription for any and all single drivers.
Just the really good ones.
Like mine.
I'm glad you like your speakers as that is what counts.
Myself I have never heard a single driver design which I liked or sounded like the real thing.
Personally I blame whizzer cones which are horribly distorting in every incarnation I have ever come across.
After my deep disappointment by Lowthers I settled for a Fostex FP253 in a back-loaded horn with a JBL compression tweeter. Those managed piano reasonably well but they were not a patch on my current speakers (fully active and time-aligned 4 ways based around 12" Tannoy DualConcentrics) which reproduce virtually anything with, at times, almost scary realism, good dynamics (planars, nice as they otherwise can be, tend to fail miserably here) and without loosing anything at the frequency extremes.
Hey,we have something in common: we both like our speakers.
Cool.
I would just remind folks that not all multiple driver speakers of only slightly higher than average sensitivity are Wilsons and not all single drivers are Lowther or Fostex, thank god.
Single driver done right has unique advantages over other designs.
Ditto for mutiway horns.
I prefer the advantages of truly excellent and a bit expensive and exclusive sd.
Others may vary.
No crossover is wonderful for someone who lkes to listen up close in real world living rooms.
And for me,tubes and the analog source are just as if not more important than the speakers.
Must remember that.Mine would somewhat suck if I had to listen to cds.
But they no suck with my records and fm tuner.
Tannoys are boss,btw.
My full range stats more closely mimic the coherency and harmonic integrity of my wife's baby grand - even if they don't play at 100 db.
rw
Many people play pianos through high efficiency speakers.
A high eff system generally means some design specifics. While single-driver systems do exist, these are operated by running the driver in breakup. The resultant peaky response is especially noticeable on a resonant instrument with high frequency content, as glare or sizzle.
So we go to a more typical system- multiway. With high eff, you have a minimum of damping, so high eff mids and such tend to have a lot of breakup above their intended frequencies, leading to 3 and 4 way systems to cross far enough out of these bands. The more complex a system is, the harder it is to get all the crossovers right, and an instrument that plays over such a wide range, like Piano, shows any crossover mismatch very effectively.
None of these are absolutes, however, and piano CAN be done very well on a high eff. system indeed.
Bass is supposed to sound big. 6.5" is not a woofer size.
IMO a full-range horn-based system will do more justice to piano music - and any other music, for that matter - than the alternatives.
"Your liver suffers dearly now for youthful magic moments...so rock on completely with some brand new components"
I don't really know horns other than my tweeters but I have to say that my 12" HighEfficiency Coaxials in OB make piano sound better than anything else I have heard. I went to hear Angela Hewitt then came home to listen to the same tracks through my SET 13EM7 and the OB's. Very very close. I am convinced that a big driver is needed to convey the big sound that a piano produces. 103dB/W helps too. But I don't know much.
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