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In Reply to: RE: Just bought the Oppo BDP-83 NuForce Edition ... posted by Christine Tham on December 21, 2009 at 14:06:36
I have only heard a non-broken-in standard Oppo in my system via HDMI very briefly and was not wowed over the PS3, so I can't comment out of personal experience. But Ric of EVS is very much unimpressed with NuForce's approach, for what it's worth:
"The Nuforce SE edition does not make any sense at all unless you are a conservative type and cannot deal with us "modders" or do not believe in tweaking. The Nuforce "mod", because that is exactly what it is, may sound as good as my $150 mod to the SE....but I doubt it, since they are not doing many of the things that I do (I do mods to the main power supply board, the display board, the main board, transport mods and mods to the output board....Nuforce is only modding the output board.). If you get the Nuforce edition you probably do not want any other mods, because everything that Nuforce does I or any other modder would remove. They are just parts swapping, removing a few mutlichannel coupling caps, removing some muting circuits and redoing some filters. If anyone wants more info on exactly what Nuforce has done you can call me. However, we are naturally open to modding the Nuforce or any other "modded" version of the SE or standard. We could even do mods where we don't touch the Nuforce output board and just do all the other things we do. Most anything is possible for those that dream."
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
Follow Ups:
Hi Jazz,
I have a stock BP83 and IMHO the audio quality is pretty bad--analog 2 channel out. It is cold,dry and hard sounding. It is not at all analog sounding.It has a major case of digititis ! My previous machine was a stock Sony 9100ES video machine. The Sony's analog outputs sounded a magnitude better than the Oppo. So much so that on receiving the Oppo, I started looking around for a mod because the Oppo really sucked. After looking around, I came to the conclusion that buying an out board DAC was more cost effective than modding the Oppo. I could not justify spending 100% to 300% more of the purchase price of the Oppo to get it to sound good. There are allot of very good out board DAC's out there for $500 to $600. This way if I change my video machine later, I can use the Dac. There are some out board Dacs being made that are allot like-- in their stock form-- what the modders end up with when they modify a stock machine. I bought a Keces 131 MK2 and in stock form sounds really good. I then installed a set of Burson opamps and it sounds amazing!!
Now---for video, I think the Oppo BP83 is just about as good as it gets and the price is right. It's upscaler is great and Blu-Ray is also excellent. But--I think that most of the quality Blu-Ray machines on the market are all very good. But--allot of the good Blu-Ray machines don't have really good upscalers. That is where the Oppo blows them away.
I also think that after shopping around for a modder--Ric Schultz is probally the best, most cost effective modder out there. If I was going to mod a stock machine, I would definately use him.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
They are a few reasons why I would not mod a new machine.
First in most cases you would have bought a machine you've personally heard, tried and like, or a machine that received many good reviews in
the main stream audio press not the fringe press such as PF or 6 moons.
Remember we have reviewer of the caliber of Teresa working for them.
If you like how your new machine sound "Leave it alone"
But the main reasons are.
1) You loose the factory warranty (could be an expansive mistake)
2) I did hear good stories, but also bad ones, and this is not only
on cd players.
3) In general I find the mods very expansive considering what it involves, in most cases the mods are as expansive or more expansive than the machine itself.
4) I have never seen a proper review of a standard machine versus a modded machine, by a proper review I mean a double blind test.
There is too much bias coming into it if done by a new owner that has to justify his expenses or the manufacturer that has to justify the mods.
5) A modded machine guarantees that you will make a greater capital loss when you sell it.
I would only consider a mod if the machine is out of warranty or if the machine has been superseeded by a new model that is much more expansive.
In general new machines are obsolete within 4 or 5 years as technology moves on.
On the rare occasions where I was able to compare a modded machine and an unmodded machine side by side, I was not convinced that the modded machine sounded better.
It is a pretty big call to place your trust on someone to make changes to a brand new machine, losing the warranty [not good when something unrelated to the mod breaks and the modder is unable to fix], that they even know what they are doing, and that the result is an improvement [esp. since most people are not in a position to do a side by side comparison]
It's easy to convince oneself that there is in fact an improvement when there isn't.
Swapping out cheap parts with more expensive ones may not necessarily result in an improvement in my opinion. Often the "improvement" turns out to be fatiguing in the long run because it's actually a form of distortion, such as an exaggeration of transients due to the new (more expensive) component being less of a match to the circuit than the cheap one.
And replacing the clock doesn't necessarily reduce jitter either - esp. in universal players where the master clock goes through a PLL to convert clock rate to an audio frequency.
Bypassing muting transistors or shorting DC caps may result in an improvement, but increases the risk of damage to equipment. Not everyone who has their player modded understand the risk involved or precautions to take. Bypassing output buffers can also result in impedance mismatch with passive switchers/volume controls.
Finally, improving voltage rail stability may offer an improvement, but simply replacing a switching supply with a linear one is not necessarily a good idea.
Like you, I have heard of horror stories where people get their machine modded, decided they don't like the sound, or it doesn't work with passive line stages, and suddenly the modder is not interested in talking to them or returning phone calls/email ... I won't name the modder, but it's not Ric [I have never experienced Ric's mods, or know anyone who has, so can't comment one way or another].
> > > > but simply replacing a switching supply with a linear one is not necessarily a good idea. < < < < < <
Why is it not a good idea to replace switching supply by linear one in audio applications if they are done properly ? Any technical explanation.
And I actually had two mods done to it, courtesy of Richard Kern, each resulting in vastly different sonic signatures relative to each other and the stock unit.
If you believe that everything in the signal path and the electrical path influences the sound quality, it follows that modifications can have an enormous impact. I'd just as soon buy a stock machine that is perfect, but I don't see one that optimizes SACD, CD and Blu-ray performance. The Ayre and Theta are just rebadged Oppos that seem to deliver less modifications than the "unsanctioned" ones. And the Marantz U9004 is just a rebadged Denon that has unfortunate HDMI limitations relative to the Oppo. So barring an unforeseen announcement at CES, a mod'ed Oppo may be the best route for me to take.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
You most probably modded the SCD1 when it was a few years old, not from new. At the time of it's release it was most probably the best they was until a new model came along.
I may do mods on a 5 or 6 years old machine as the cost and loss implication would not be as great but definetely not on a new machine.
Remember the mod squad as to justify their living and in hifi we all know how much bullshit flies around.
My motto as always been, "Trust your ears not the salesman"
When my SCD-1 was first mod'ed, it would not make an offensive sound. It was laid back and sweet as could be with very lush highs. Fortunately the left channel went dead so I had no choice but to send it back to be fixed and have further modification. I prefer a more forward, analytical presentation. And luckily the Kern mod got me there. It was an eye opener.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
I agree with Christine. I had two rounds of mods on my Kern modded SCD777es a few years ago. I have since sold it when I concluded a $700 pro sound card with a touch of DSP topped it. It did take a few years of advancements in computer audio to get to that point. In retrospect, the mods definitely increased the resolution, but made the sound fatiguing. The Sony was a beautiful piece of hardware though.
"I have only heard a non-broken-in standard Oppo in my system via HDMI very briefly and was not wowed over the PS3"
All the diff will be in your HDMI pre-pro. Except that the Oppo can do DSD for SACD if your pre-pro can handle it too. Otherwise I don't see much good reason why the HDMI sound should be hugely different from the player end.
Now when it comes to video via HDMI, the Oppo has plenty of advantages over the PS3. Not really any for 1080p/24 BD, but for everything else. And analog audio of course. (I have both units in my rack.) I think both units pretty much suck for CD over HDMI, but a couple of people (only a couple!) say it's my HDMI pre-pro not handling 44.1 stuff well. Not a big deal for me, but be wary of it if you thought the Oppo/PS3 might be a good HDMI CDP (I don't know, just that they sure aren't here).
Also note that the two types of ESS Sabre DACs used in the Oppo SE seem to have a preference for either LPCM or DSD input, depending which ones you're using for what. As reported at least, make your own listening choice.
although different machines have different compression via HDMI. For example, the Denon is worse than the Oppo.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
When the BDP-83SE first came out, Ric made an interesting post "rubbishing" the "cheap" parts that Oppo was using - he then had to subsequently edit and tone down his post after someone forwarded his post to Oppo (and rumour has it Oppo sent him a very strong warning).He also made a post in another forum criticizing NuForce for using cheap parts (or was that on his web site?).
Bottom line is: he hasn't won many friends or respect as a result.
NuForce on the other hand has impressed me with their knowledge and their honesty, and their refusal to criticise their competitors. There was a strong rumour that they "jointly designed" the SE audio board with Oppo, but they clarified and said their input was fairly minimal (they did some listening tests on the prototype and offered some suggestions). They obviously have some formal relationship with Oppo, as they will be taking over the SE upgrade in 2010 from Oppo.
Bottom line is: NuForce have full access to the circuit design and knows exactly what to change and what to leave alone. They have been very open in saying that most of their changes are in further stabilising the power supply (as well as bypassing the muting relays).
Ric is fully entitled to his opinion, and I am entitled to decide where to spend my money and who I trust.
Edits: 12/22/09
Ric is a crackerjack modder and I would readily trust his judgement and his work. His modification pathways always made sense to me. I still have his DAC that he designed and built, it was a wonderful piece of electronics. What was amazing about it is when you opened it up, I was shocked to see that not much was there - as it should be....
Retsel
During the entire HD DVD vs Blu-ray rollout, AVS destroyed its own reputation as far as I'm concerned.
Like I said, I don't have the listening experience to weigh in one way or another on Ric's comments, but I do think his point is valid about NuForce's overhead versus mods who don't have those expenses and can give you more parts/labor bang for your buck. I do think your point is equally valid about NuForce's relationship with Oppo and am very interested in your comments as your player breaks in and you are able to compare it with your Sony SACD player. Please let us know your impressions. I posted the link to Ric's site for purposes of discussion.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
I own an OPP 83 and I do like it.
But on the other hand AVS is pretty much pro-OPPO. Comments that slightly indicate negative on OPPO 83 will be refuted. And OP is also very pro-OPPO and you can easily see that from her comments in AVS. And obviously she does not like Ric.
*** I do think his point is valid about NuForce's overhead versus mods who don't have those expenses and can give you more parts/labor bang for your buck. ***
Personally, I doubt that.
Even assuming that both Ric and NuForce perform exactly the same changes (which is unlikely), I don't think Ric's "hand crafted" labour costs are going to match the economies of scale of NuForce's off-shore production line. One of the advantages of buying the NE is that you are buying a production unit with a warranty.
But it's a moot point - it's not about the cost of components or the cost of labour. It's all about the design (and the knowledge behind it).
I don't have the resources to compare a standard BDP-83, an SE and an NE side by side, nor would I want to.
But there's multiple fairly credible reports of people who have compared the standard and SE side by side, and the SE and NE side by side, and I enjoyed reading the comparisons.
> > *** I do think his point is valid about NuForce's overhead versus mods who don't have those expenses and can give you more parts/labor bang for your buck. ***
Personally, I doubt that.
Even assuming that both Ric and NuForce perform exactly the same changes (which is unlikely), I don't think Ric's "hand crafted" labour costs are going to match the economies of scale of NuForce's off-shore production line. < <
NuForce has to pay for offices and distributors that Ric isn't greasing. Plus you get the NuForce logo silk screened on the front panel. So it makes sense to me that NuForce is passing along to its customers a significant cost that has absolutely nothing to do with audio performance and everything to do with operations. Ric's smaller operation may even offer him a chance to tailor the Oppo mods more to an individual's taste rather than NuForce's one-size-fits-all approach.
> > One of the advantages of buying the NE is that you are buying a production unit with a warranty. < <
It's a one-year warranty. That doesn't scream to me that NuForce has a whole lot of confidence in its work.
> > But it's a moot point - it's not about the cost of components or the cost of labour. It's all about the design (and the knowledge behind it). < <
Yeah but once you open the unit and take a gander at the audio board, isn't that all the knowledge of the design you need? After that it's all about voicing tests with different parts you swap in and modify vs the stock version. I don't doubt the NuForce version is worth it, but Ric's comments also make sense to me, and might be worth considering. I'm kind of on the fence as to which direction to go--whether a mod'ed Oppo or a different universal unit. I'll see what's announced at CES.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
A modder that has achieved success enough to become an ongoing concern has passed significant testing in the marketplace against competition. Even before that, they have received far more feedback and had more chance to optimize. That is almost as valuable as design skills.I work in offshore production, and cheaper labor and volume make up by far over any overhead. Hand production by a designer is the most expensive way to go... unless it is his hobby.
Working with Oppo is a significant attractor to me, gaining insight that cannot be gained by "looking at the circuit." Being in the embedded electronics design world, this is clear.
I can't weigh in at all regarding these two modders, but I can at least debate your points....
--
Keep your ears honest: Listen to live, unamplified music every week.
Edits: 12/25/09
*** So it makes sense to me that NuForce is passing along to its customers a significant cost that has absolutely nothing to do with audio performance and everything to do with operations. ***The audio quality of a component has very little to do with the cost of components, or the cost of labour.
My personal view is that a good design requires significant resources including circuit simulation in order to optimise the dynamic operating parameters.
I don't think Ric has either the expertise or the resources to do this.
NuForce doesn't either, but they are wise enough not to tamper (too much) with the circuit.
Oppo *may* have the expertise and the resources, but they are actually wise and smart enough to stick to the standard ESS recommended design.
ESS, like any other DAC manufacturer, does have the resources and expertise to do the extensive modelling and physical testing to optimise their recommended design.
*** Yeah but once you open the unit and take a gander at the audio board, isn't that all the knowledge of the design you need? ***
If only that was true. Ric's initial post describing the BDP-83SE design contained factual errors (requiring a response and a warning from Oppo), indicated that he did not fully understand the circuit. His description of the NuForce board seems to have missed out on over 30 changes that NuForce made to the design, which does not exact inspire confidence in me.
If you don't even understand what you are modding, how do you know your mods are effective?
It's easy to shoot down a competitor when you don't even understand what they have done (or not done).
How much "value for money" do you get from a non-optimal mod?
Edits: 12/23/09
Just to clear up a few things: The only thing non-factual in my original post on AVS forum was mis-identifying some of the electrolytic caps....calling them Chinese instead of Japanese. I know exactly what Oppo has done and think for the money it cannot....I mean absolutely cannot be duplicated for the money. Amazing value!!!Christine, you have no idea what I know. I know exactly what Oppo and Nuforce have done and I know exactly how to make the ESS DACs and output stages sound way better than you have any idea. To think you can use computer modeling to make something sound good is simply just not true. True audio engineering is a combo of some measuring and mucho hard work listening to various circuits, parts and execution. You cannot get good sound by modeling alone....no way. This is the difference between technical engineering and audio engineering. Audio engineers (the good ones, like Charles Hansen) actually listen to every tiny thing they do. Technical engineers (you talk like one) seem to think all you have to do is understand certain theories and implement things according to some book knowledge. Most audio circuits that sound superior do not measure as well as the best measuring op amps. How come they sound more transparent and real?
By the way, I originally thought Oppo had used the exact circuit that ESS had recommended but you will notice a couple of pages after the first post that I stated that the filtering was not the same as the ESS circuit. Nuforce in their mod has changed the filtering. Somewhat different from ESS and way different from what I do. And I guarantee they did no modeling.
Also, I never said Nuforce used cheap parts. What I said is that they use around $50 worth of parts.....this is true....and documentable. I also say on my website that I think their mod is fairly priced. Remember that their mod is "retail" priced. They sell the modded players through dealers. So...a $400 commercial mod will be around $50 worth of parts and around 2 hours labor.......this is normal. The advantage us modders have is that we sell wholesale direct and we have very, very little overhead. I charge $50 per hour plus parts....so a $400 mod might have $150 worth of parts and 5 hours labor....or $200 worth of parts and 4 hours labor......Of course, an inexpensive mod done right can beat a more expensive mod done poorly. But who is doing the better work? Can you say? You have no idea what I can do.
This whole warrantee thing gets blown way out of proportion. The Oppo machines are very reliable and what I offer is to fix the machines for the cost of parts (I do not make a cent!) if they ever break.....I mean ever! Of course, I warrantee all the mod work forever...for free!!! Also, if someone wants a one year warrantee that covers everything, I will sell them one for $50! Pretty fair, I feel.
As far as who's mod is optimal and who's is not and who gives better value.....well, I will leave that to my customers to say. You will be hearing from them very soon.
Edits: 12/23/09 12/23/09
And JPcon is Taiwanese. It is not Japanese. And I agree with you totally that they are at best electrolytic cap.
I have actually followed your suggestions to get rid of the muting circuit and bypass the output cap. It makes so much difference and better. (obviously you are at your own risk for doing this). But since I use a valve pre, I am not worried about getting rid of the muting circuit.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
I will know very soon. Clocks are important but among the last thing to change. Much more benefit comes from better power supplies, output stages, transport mods and esoteric mods (damping, shielding, removing distortion producing parts, etc). The SE already sounds like it has a good clock in it (the ESS DACs run off their own clock right next to them....the ESS DACs are said to be less sensitive to jitter....we shall see). However, I have never heard a machine that did not benefit from better clocking. The main clock on the decoding board is a 27 meg clock. I will be changing that clock to my EVS Clock 2 this weekend. The clock right on the DACs will be changed in about 10 days when I get the right frequency clock in. I imagine for all out sound that both clocks will need to be upgraded. But, as I said, these are not the most important things to change first. Just doing my $150 MBBM++ mod and the analog power supply mod is really guite something....and this is just $250 total. Clocks cannot make this kind of difference....no way.....but, they are important for all out sound.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. -Gandhi
I've heard reports that the BDP-83SE is "dark" sounding, but the NE is definitely not "dark."
Similar sonic signature to the XA777ES (which is a *good* thing) but currently sounding just a little less refined and less liquid.
Also, it has less *slam* than the XA777ES.
But it's still early days. The XA777ES sounded terrible when I first plugged it in (I was so ready to return it immediately) but after 50-100 hours it really settled in and I ended up liking it a lot.
On the plus side, the new unit has incredible detail - no doubt courtesy of the Sabre DACs. Listening to the SFS Mahler discs - OMG it was like I was in a concert hall it was so eerily realistic.
Also watching Gandhi I could make out individual conversations in some of the crowd scenes. Amazing jaw dropping level of detail.
I had an XA777ES for five years (including one trip to Sony Laredo after which it sounded about as good as it was going to sound). When I discovered that my Raysonic CD128 sounded as good playing the CD layer of hybrid SACDs as the Sony did playing the SACD layer, I sold the Sony.
I picked up an Oppo 980H as a stop-gap SACD player (for single-layer discs). It was okay but no world-beater (at $169, how could it be?). I was hoping that the new Oppo might fill the bill. So much for that, if it can't even outperform the Sony for refinement, liquidity, and slam.
In my experience, the sonic qualities during the first few hours are rarely those once the player has settled in.As I've said, it's still early days to make any sort of call ...
Of course, I'm not saying the player will improve with burn-in - I've heard players that sounded fantastic out of the box but annoying and fatiguing after 2 weeks ...
PS - you're right - the XA777ES is horrible playing back CDs - even to this day.
Edits: 12/23/09
It took me forever to get my own fix on the XA777ES since the reviews of that machine were fantastic and I kept questioning my ears for the longest time.
But the Oppo was primarily intended as a VIDEO player. Most customers couldn't care less about its non-HDMI capabilities, nor its SACD/DVD-A capability either. I don't mean "most" people in this thread though, but in general.
The analog audio capabilities are definitely a niche market for this player, a niche Oppo has addressed to a small extent, but I think the main purpose of the design and its originally intended market should be taken into consideration (Oppo has a long-standing VIDEO market). Does anybody really think a do-all "tool" is going to out-perform a quality purpose-designed one? If it did, that's where your big surprise should be...
But this particular Oppo has been extolled HERE not as a video player. The 980H was good enough (again, not as a video player) to suggest that the new one might excel on hi-rez AUDIO.
Clear?
I'm not surprised you got the ANALOG audio impression you did. Before the SE and other modded variants I read all sorts of ridiculous claims in audio forums about the quality of the 83's analog outputs. At best, in stock form, they are acceptable. You really have to wonder what some of the claimants were listening to before the 83.
I even get much better sound via HDMI through my crappy pre-pro with SACD and DVD-A. So IOW for me, the analog output mods people are doing would have to be not just a bit better, but a hell of a lot better than stock. A magnitude better. I'm not saying they aren't, I don't know. But it is designed to be a "cheap" player, and I'm wary of putting too many $$ hop-up mods on such a platform (I do have some minor ones intended that I'll do myself). Drive life is an issue, and for the amount I use the Oppo (~8 hours/day) I only expect 2-3 years...long enough for many people I guess, but likely it'll be junk when the drive goes. A universal player gets a lot of use! compared to a single-purpose. I guess even the SE/modded versions are still pretty cheap compared to what some people are used to paying though.
I have a 980 too. The stock 83 does sound better via analog outs than the 980, quite a lot better to me. Enough to warrant a purchase I'd say (obviously, since I did it and didn't get the 83 for BD). If you have a lot of hi-rez discs you'd probably appreciate the SE or variants. Plus you could partake of BD music discs, quite phenomenal (I appreciate them, even though the music isn't exactly my preferred genres).
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