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1) Nearly two years after I bought a machine there are still no titles in the high street; thank goodness it also plays DVDvideo.
2) The 15 discs I have all sound as bad as they did the day I bought them. Every disc has a fundamental error in recording production.
3) They are worthless even on Ebay.
4) They don't fit on my shelf properly, mostly being larger packaging than the surrounding CDs.Whaty a heap of crap lolol. Certainly dead, never to be re-born. RIP and good 'effin' riddance.
Follow Ups:
I find it interesting how someone posting very valid shortcomings regarding DVD-A was turned into yet another DVD-A vs SACD thread.DVD-A and SACD have very valid shortcomings. However, IMO they both sound better (with a proper recording) than anything else we have been given in the past and on my main system I have not listened to anything other than SACD and DVD-A since aquiring my Marantz 8260.
"I find it interesting how someone posting very valid shortcomings regarding DVD-A was turned into yet another DVD-A vs SACD thread."Maybe if the original poster had included the shortcomings of SACD also, thus presenting a more balanced picture? I think some of the DVDA folks are defensive after the constant and unnecessary insults from the SACD folks.... seems like there should be more common ground.
Also, I'm not sure what valid shortcomings were described in the original post... Here's what I mean:
"1) Nearly two years after I bought a machine there are still no titles in the high street; thank goodness it also plays DVDvideo."
Not sure what 'high street' is, a place in San Francisco maybe? :) Lack of major titles is a shortcoming shared by both SACD and DVDA. Also, aren't some of the newer Sony SACD players also DVD players?
"2) The 15 discs I have all sound as bad as they did the day I bought them. Every disc has a fundamental error in recording production."
The original poster either has something very wrong with his system, or is only listening to Silverline discs. Its hard to take this comment seriously in light of the fact that he/she doesn't list what the discs are and the fact that many many others listen to quality DVDA discs and do not share this opinion. In fact, since so many folks find DVD-A a great improvement in SQ compared to CD redbook (notice I did not put down SACD here), this statement seems more like 'trolling'.
"3) They are worthless even on Ebay."
What, the discs or the player? Did the original poster actually try to sell 'it' on eBay with poor results? Are there links to relevent site on ebay so we can see this? Details....?
"4) They don't fit on my shelf properly, mostly being larger packaging than the surrounding CDs."
On my shelf, they fit perfectly in between smaller CDs and larger DVD-vid. The different size helps to differentiate the different discs into different sections too.
"Whaty a heap of crap lolol. Certainly dead, never to be re-born. RIP and good 'effin' riddance."
Yeah, right.
I agree with you EricJ that both formats have some shortcomings (I have both), but I just don't think there was much in the original post of any merit. From lurking here for awhile, I find it curious that some of the SACD folks go out of their way to constantly bash and put down DVDA, thus putting DVD folks on the defensive. Maybe that's how they get their jollies?
Somebody: For your information, "high street" is a British expression. The equivalent in American parlance is "downtown".
Shortcomings of DVD-A ? DVD-A has some well-known shortcomings which are difficult to overcome. These shortcomings will come up time and again as folks muck around trying to find all about DVD-A (case in point - DVDman). Someone asks an innocent question or makes a innocent comment, and the DVD-A proponents feel compelled to defend the format (and admittedly a few SACD proponents feel like adding fuel to the fire).
"DVD-A has some well-known shortcomings which are difficult to overcome."As does SACD, as does SACD.... (and I have both DVDA and SACD).
"Someone asks an innocent question or makes a innocent comment, and the DVD-A proponents feel compelled to defend the format"
Let's not be holier than thou, whenever someone takes asks an innocent question or comment the other way, the SACD proponents also feel compelled to 'defend the format'.
Maybe if SACD and DVDA each had their own forum, people could relax and get back to exploring and discussing their hi-rez option of choice instead of this constant bickering and insulting of others' choices. Similer approach is usually required at software sites where its necessary to separate the Linux zealots from the Windows zealots. Just an idea ...
* I find it curious that some of the SACD folks go out of their way to constantly bash and put down DVDA, thus putting DVD folks on the defensive. Maybe that's how they get their jollies?*With out regards to Rich, who we all know is very biased and opinionated. I find the DVD-A guys to be just as guilty of this.
Yes, Rich is 'an army of one'. :)I agree the bashing seems to go both ways, but more often than not in my opinion, it seems to be started by an SACD-type person, then responded to by DVD-A folks and then spirals downward from there.
It usually starts with a dig at DVD-A, then responses are either a counter point or a dig at SACD. This thread is the perfect example.
Too bad too, I have both and to me each has its uses - if folks only realized that there isn't a right or wrong with this. The solution that works best for one might not for someone else, depending on their needs and uses, musical tastes etc...
And in Rich's opinion, SACD is the only solution.He fails to grasp a decent number of inmates own both DVD-A and SACD players (I'm one of them). Universal players are also available. Seems as though there are a few solutions out there shared by the same person and not just dedicating themselves to one format. What a concept!!! Also, the DVD-A players also are compatible for one's redbook CD collection and also for DVD software. I know this doesn't mean those players will then draw folks to DVD-A recordings automatically, but it is nice to have a solution for the discs that are coming out and one likes!!
Maybe he'll wake up one day and realize Sony discs can only be played on SACD players. I guess SACD is dead!
Ok, so that's not actually true (I think). DVD-A is alright, if you're into 5.1 classic rock releases.
I paid $17.99 and $19.99 respectively for each at Best Buy here in Miami.I listened to each disc twice yesterday, on the SET/Horn system and all listening was with the dedicated two channel mix. I didn't see what these stereo mixes were recorded at and I couldn't find anything on the other sites, so I'm figuring 24/96, but I could be wrong.
I have Harvest on LP, but that's it for the two, so I really can't compare. I'm also at 14 DVD~As after a few months of owning a Denon 1600 DVD~A player.
Just some general impressions. Bass on both is well delineated and full and although the Cornwalls drop off rapidly at 36Hz, music with this content (upper bass) seems fairly well rendered on the discs that I own. Maybe a format trait? Mixing?
On some of the cuts on both, where Michael and Neil's voices are featured up front, the midband is quite nice and enjoyable. On Harvest, many of the vocal tracks are mixed quite deep in 3-D space, so I'm really talking about a few tracks from this album. However, I think overall, I prefer the sonics on Harvest to those on Reveal and I was initially getting some tizziness from songs in the middle of the playlist, which I didn't hear on Harvest. Mind you, Harvest has a live track and two tracks with the LSO and it's obviously an analogue master, but this DVD~A is just more engaging to me. In defense, I do enjoy the music on Reveal, so I don't think that this bias exists for me, at least relative to these two albums.
As for the treble on both, the Cornwalls don't hit much higher than 16k, but I didn't notice anything adverse on Harvest. The tizziness on Reveal didn't manifest itself on every track, so Verance doesn't seem to be the issue. Maybe just very busy tracks?
I'm going to listen to them some more, but those are just some initial thoughts on two new discs that I have. I especially like the packaging on Harvest, which mimics an LP gatefold cover very closely.
Anyway, I haven't ditched DVD~A yet and to my ears, many of the discs do excell when compared to some of the CD counterparts that I have. I'll admit that, should I be given the chance (which I'm not,) I'd prefer to buy the SACDs due to the fact that there's a lot less guessing relative to resolution. They still haven't gotten this issue corrected vis-a-vis packaging.
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NT
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I've got about 8 discs so far, and they all work differently, and are not labelled properly on the outside as to what types of formats/resolutions are on the disc, etc. Sometimes even discs from the same label use different methods for selecting the audio tracks!I'm waiting for another year or so for them to sort this mess out.
DTS has added labeling to the back of their packages that describe the contents quite well.Warner is also adding labeling which clearly lays out the available contents as well. You will say that debuting on a couple of their new releases later this month.
nt
It doesn't take a year to enjoy music on a DVD-A. It takes about 5 seconds. Mostly they play automatically. And labelling HAS improved greatly in recent months.
must hit "T" select Group 2 and if that doesn't work turn on the TV and hit Top Menu and select "2 Channel Stereo". By contrast my 2 channel SACD player it ALWAYS plays the 2 channel Stereo. I have my Toshiba 9200 DVD-Audio player set up for 2 channel playback in the menu so why can't my DVD-Audio machine play the 2 channel stereo tracks instead of the 5.1 by default? I think SACDs computer is smarter than DVD-Audio's!
I've found that I prefer the 2 channel mixes over the surround mixes - yes, you can put them in and they "play" - but try to easily select the 2 channel high resolution track each time - I've found 4 different ways this is done so far - and several of my discs REQUIRE a TV screen to do it.
(a) I can't hear it on Warners'; and,
(b) I've got numerous DVD-As without it. (e.g. AIX, Naxos, Surroundedby etc.)
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or are you merely spouting off the propaganda that Moncrief et al are trying to "sell" to the uninformed masses ?
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Sorry, but that's just the way I like my mashed potatos!
One day you'll have a SACD player, and you'll probably even grudgingly admit that the format sounds pretty darn good. How do I know this? I've seen it on this forum many times before. Eventually you'll come to realise that it's not about the format but the music. The availability of music you want to listen to only on SACD will force your hand. The days of Format A vs Format B are largely over. Lots of labels have made up their minds already and have release plans for the next few years already. If there was more stuff I wanted to listen to on DVD-A, I'd probably have a player as well ... but there isn't and I don't. Maybe it's time for you to grow out of the listening to the format and start listening to the music again ...(Now before you react with a response that includes the word "never" somewhere, keep in mind that this forum is archived and everything stupid you and I say is on permanent record. And there'll be someone around to remind you of what you said.)
Stephen Best
Canberra, Australia
Earwax? The PCM genie in a bottle? Or Ms. Universe?
Just picked up 3 classical SACD’s and listening to these confirms what I’ve heard on my other classical SACD’s. The smoothness is not beneficial for classical music. Actually the talk about the velvet curtain came to my mind at one point.I’m keeping away from classical SACD’s until I find out if the villain is the NS900 or the SACD format in general.
***The smoothness is not beneficial for classical music.***Yes, that's why virtually all the classical labels switched to SACD.
I spoke to a Chandos rep visiting Tower records recently, and that person openely said that they received a subsidy to install DSD kit at their studios.
There's squillions of small classical labels yet to move to hi-rez. Of those that have moved, the overwhelming majority have gone SACD or announced their intention to do so.
Stephen Best
Canberra, Australia
...usual brightness/hardness associated with many cd's. Real helpful hint for me was to listen to non digital sources such as master tapes or vinyl to re calibrate my system. Then evaluate pcm versus sacd.
There are no equalizer/treble/bass controls anywhere in my system. My cables are, if anything, top heavy and perhaps so is my speaker/amp combination.
....There are no equalizer/treble/bass controls anywhere in my system. My cables are, if anything, top heavy and perhaps so is my speaker/amp combination...I do not mean 'balancing one's system' through use of equalizers/treble or bass controls. I mean balancing one's system through component selection, cable selection etc. All components are usually balanced one way or the other (light and airy or bass heavy and dark). I'm talking subtleties here that only an audiophile would appreciate. My own personal belief is that audiophiles (including me) choose components to compliment our systems. Then we choose software that sounds the best. I further believe audiophiles choose cables and power conditioners to 'fine tune' the timbre of their systems.
....How do you have access to master tapes? Which ones?....
I have several master tapes made by amateurs, primarily of classical music.
I think that after years of cd/pcm digital many audiophiles have compensated through the 'component selection process' to make their systems less sensitive to digititus and therefore have a 'darkish' balance. In these systems many may actually prefer the high frequencies of dvda versus sacd. But it ain't the truth IMO.
Thanks, I see what you mean. And truth be told, I can "calibrate" using the PS Audio power plant running at various frequencies. This can fine-tune my system. Having recently added a turntable to my system, I did have to fine-tune all over again and ended up a touch more "darkish", as you say, than I was before. But still clear, extended treble and overall very good balance.No velvet curtain. Not even a velvet valence. Nor a scarf. Not so much as a curtain rod or other curtain accessory. Sometimes, I barely even notice the window. ;)
You're welcome. Sacd is the real deal (no velvet fog) at least to these ears.
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The majority of classical SACDs I've heard on the SCD-1 have been nothing short of revelatory. The only velvet curtain is the one in Moncrief's brain.
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Everything you said (except for item four which I could care less about anyway) are blanket statements with no detailed information to back them up. Give us some details. Your whining is pointless without them.
that even though DVD-A may be dead, that situation doesn't mitigate the risk that SACD may also prove to be a marginal format. I've recently purchased a Digital Camera, and it uses something called "Compact Flash" as a portable storage medium...no moving parts, I believe, and up to 1GB of storage (more to come, I'm sure). I'm having some trouble believing that another generation of rotating silver discs is the wave of the future for the next 20 years...
Regarding availability, in NJ I can find titles in Best Buy, Compact Disc World, and now Sam Goody's. Another inmate has a local Coconuts location that also carries titles. Some of these locations actually have the new titles on Tuesday which is the day they are released. I'm not going to say that these stores carry lots of DVD-A recordings. Percentage wise with the number of titles available, they carry about the same if not more than SACD recordings. Even some Borders locations carry DVD-A recordings.Branching out to NYC, one can find titles in Tower Record locations and J&R Music World for starters. .
I own 10 recordings at this point. I am pleased with the sound quality of these. However, my two channel system for CD and SACD listening blows away my 5 channel setup and I don't have the funds at this time to upgrade my DVD-A player nor my cheapo Denon receiver.
More player manufacturers, more software titles, and more availability in stores spells progress to me. The larger packaging and being worthless on Ebay (lots of things are) isn't concerns of mine.
"The 15 discs I have all sound as bad as they did the day I bought them."All good formats offer software that is self-improving. Just look at vinyl. Duh.
Ever sat in a rock concert and thought the sound was shrill and coloured, only to feel later in the session that the mind had adjusted? The same is true over time with familiarity.
In a live concert, the sound crew is working fast and furious during the initial songs, adjusting the sound. It's true that audience members are also getting used to it, but it's not a case of the sound being consistent.
> > Nearly two years after I bought a machine there are still no titles in the high street < <Not true. It depends where you look. I have seen them -- even in the UK. In the US, try: Best Buy, Tower Records, Circuit City etc. Two years after CD's first release they could still only be found in specialist shops/music departments. And as for SACD, well, I still don't see many of those around, and that format's had 1.5 years longer than DVD-A!
> > The 15 discs I have all sound as bad as they did the day I bought them. < <
Which ones did you buy? I have almost 40 DVD-As. Some are not so good, but many are truly excellent. Overall, sound quality is FAR better than CD.
> > Every disc has a fundamental error in recording production. < <
Such as? And can you name a format where all discs are "perfectly" produced?
> > They don't fit on my shelf properly, mostly being larger packaging than the surrounding CDs. < <
In that case, 20 years ago, you must have had a BIG problem with stacking LPs, 45rpm singles, and cassettes etc.!
BTW, I've got one shelf stacked end-to-end with CDs.
The shelf below it is stacked with DVD-As. I've got no problems with that arrangement. Plus, the size difference means I won't get them mixed up.
DVD-Audio is a very cool format. Sounds superb, and has the titles I want.Dark Side Of The Moon - the day this is released is the day DVD-A is one of the big boys IMO.
Cheers,
Paul.
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Now matter how long it takes.
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nt
Sorry if I gave the impression I already have it. My point I was trying to make is that DVDA has some upcoming releases I'm really looking forward to, DSOTM, Pet Sounds ....
Try hodie-world.com; 192k classicals
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