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In Reply to: RE: Two subs makes it kind of tricky. posted by AbeCollins on May 17, 2022 at 15:56:15
I guess you got me there. Two subs are better than no subs.
Follow Ups:
I'm not necessarily looking for the most bass I can get or a room full of bass. I am mainly looking to extend the low-freqs a bit beyond what my main speakers can do while trying to maintain a sense of Right channel and Left channel along with good bass 'snap'. I have experienced a "room full of bass" before and that's not what I'm striving for this time around.
I also see from your photo your speakers are almost certainly too far apart. Does that surprise you? Most speakers in most rooms are too far apart, in fact, probably because folks widely believe that gives them better soundstage, wider soundstage anyway, but in truth the best soundstage including *width* is produced when speakers are closer together, in the range 4-5 feet. There is a placement, for both speakers, where the sound just pops into place. But you can't find those locations Willy nilly. You need a foolproof method. That's why I say a methodology is needed to locate the speakers, something like XLO TEST CD, something with speaker set-up track.
Edits: 05/18/22 05/18/22
Let me ask you this.
- How far apart do you think my speakers are?
- If the speakers were 4 feet apart how far back would you sit?
BTW, I have a test CD and a handful of music tracks that I use for setup. As I already mentioned, I'm still experimenting so what you see in the photo may not be final placement.
this is just me Abe, but I listen on an equilateral like things were mixed and monitored on a recording desk. It minimizes room interactions.
For mastering, each place most likely has a thoroughly vetted listening position and it probably varies depending on the room.
I did some recording of bands and instruments on a small scale so I'm used to the equilateral midfield listening position. People will vary all over the place depending on how they want things set up in a comfortable home environment. Look at Cut Throats room, he has plenty of room and can sit a few people comfortably to listen without shifting positions every 20 seconds like musical chairs.
You have to start somewhere so use the position you like and augment things until it sounds 'right'.
Thanks.
I've been experimenting with various adjustments most of the day including main speakers and the subs. The wife was out with her friends so no honey do interruptions ;-)
Geoff is right. I've got my Quads at 6 feet center to center of tweet panels and it's just right. Image is beyond borders of speakers and it's quite difficult to point to anything except the location of instruments. Giant headphones. Thanks for mentioning this Geoff
Geoff recommends speaker placement 4 -5 feet apart. But, like you, I ended up choosing on 6 feet apart (center to center).5 feet (wall to speaker front) from the wall behind them in my 11' X 18' room has also proved optimal, in my room and with my speakers (with a sitting distance 10 - 11 feet away from the speaker fronts).
4 - 5 feet apart has never produced the biggest soundstage in my room - no matter how I adjust speaker toe-in or distance from the wall behind.
Putting the speakers closer than 6 feet apart solidifies the central "phantom image" a bit more, but it also shrinks my soundstage somewhat.
Optimal speaker placement is too speaker-dependent and/or room-dependent to make generalizations about, I think.
Edits: 05/19/22 05/19/22
But I was making generalizations AND I was also saying one MUST use a speaker set up track in order to get the correct result. What I probably should have said is what the guy on the XLO TEST CD said which is START at about 4 feet between speakers and gradually move them apart. Trying to get the right placement without a foolproof method, i.e., TEST CD - you can only find local maximum locations, but not the real maximum locations. People toe in too much and separate the speakers too much, generally. It's not a question of feet it's a question of centimeters. Trying to find the best locations by moving speakers a foot at a time hascabout as much chance of success as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle.I should warn you the set-up track requires that the room be treated *sufficiently well* to be able to "hear the sound coming from all around you, with no particular direction." This is not easy, trust me. It's certainly not something you can achieve in a day or two. When the system can do that with out of phase signal it will have best sound,most focus and biggest soundstage when signal is in phase. Most rooms are hideously out of whack acoustically, it would take a long time just to get them squared away enough to be able to utilize the speaker setup track. How do I know this, you ask. Because I'm from the future.
Edits: 05/19/22 05/19/22
he's from the future
"A room full of bass" is not what I'm suggesting. At all. Where did you get from? Think of it like speaker placement, there needs to be a deliberate method, otherwise you'll never find the optimum locations. Trying to find speaker (or subwoofer) locations by making the system look symmetrical or guessing where the best sound is is like trying to solve x simultaneous equations in x + n unknowns. Having four speakers means you have even more simultaneous equations to solve.
No matter how much you have in the end you would have had even more if you had started out with more. - Audiophile axiom
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