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After my decluttering exercise I have recluttered with a pair of SVS SB-1000 Pro subwoofers. I've tried a few different positions but placing the subs inside the main speakers and on the same frontal plane is best so far. I've been playing with the low-pass filter and I'm presently at 50Hz with 18dB roll-off.I still have more experimenting to do but so far this placement seems best w/o a lot tweaking.
I guess I'm hearing what I am supposed to and to some extent what I wasn't expecting. The lower freqs have more energy and at times I can feel it in my chest more than before. To be expected. What I wasn't expecting was a little more overall "clarity" and larger soundstage. Is this possible? It also sounds better than it did before when playing at lower volume levels WITHOUT applying my Roon DSP trickery of tipping the bottom and top ends up slightly.
My previous subwoofer experience was about 15 years ago and it wasn't to my liking. I had a down-firing REL placed in the corner in our previous house. It was supposed to "pressurize" the room with noticeable bass. It did but it was a "round and indistinct bass" and not very snappy or tight. I placed the REL sub in front and on its side with the woofer firing directly at me instead of down-firing. It still wasn't great but I preferred it to the down-firing setup in the corner.
I decided on a pair of smaller front firing subs this time instead of one larger sub.
Any suggestions for further experimentation?
Edits: 05/15/22 05/15/22 05/15/22Follow Ups:
Waves can cancel or reinforce each other, so you might easily wind up with a big null where you're sitting or too much bass. What you need is a test tone and SPL mter to map the room,see what's going on. You can't really go by what looks good, symmetry, etc.
"You can't really go by what looks good, symmetry, etc."I want some localization of bass [Right Ch & Left Ch] rather than just a room full of bass.
Can I go by what I'm hearing? I've also experimented with my listening position forward and backward. So far I'm hearing better bass with the two subs vs no subs.
I might try test tones and SPL at some point.
Edits: 05/17/22
I would recommend sooner than later. It might also change your choice of low pass for the most linear results in your room.
Sorry you think subs will adrldress any sound problem. Good speakers that offer full range is IMO the better solution. You don't get the equivalent of subs in live music - you hear the instruments from where the players are sitting. All their frequencies come from their instrument, not from arbitrarily chosen places in the auditorium!
Get a few basic room features resolved and you don't need subs with well set up (proper) speakers.
"Sorry you think subs will adrldress any sound problem."
Where did you get that? I never said it or implied it.
As for "proper speakers" which you apparently own, not everyone wants a pair of larger than marching band sousaphone horns in their home. I'm sure they sound wonderful but....
I guess you got me there. Two subs are better than no subs.
I'm not necessarily looking for the most bass I can get or a room full of bass. I am mainly looking to extend the low-freqs a bit beyond what my main speakers can do while trying to maintain a sense of Right channel and Left channel along with good bass 'snap'. I have experienced a "room full of bass" before and that's not what I'm striving for this time around.
I also see from your photo your speakers are almost certainly too far apart. Does that surprise you? Most speakers in most rooms are too far apart, in fact, probably because folks widely believe that gives them better soundstage, wider soundstage anyway, but in truth the best soundstage including *width* is produced when speakers are closer together, in the range 4-5 feet. There is a placement, for both speakers, where the sound just pops into place. But you can't find those locations Willy nilly. You need a foolproof method. That's why I say a methodology is needed to locate the speakers, something like XLO TEST CD, something with speaker set-up track.
Edits: 05/18/22 05/18/22
Let me ask you this.
- How far apart do you think my speakers are?
- If the speakers were 4 feet apart how far back would you sit?
BTW, I have a test CD and a handful of music tracks that I use for setup. As I already mentioned, I'm still experimenting so what you see in the photo may not be final placement.
this is just me Abe, but I listen on an equilateral like things were mixed and monitored on a recording desk. It minimizes room interactions.
For mastering, each place most likely has a thoroughly vetted listening position and it probably varies depending on the room.
I did some recording of bands and instruments on a small scale so I'm used to the equilateral midfield listening position. People will vary all over the place depending on how they want things set up in a comfortable home environment. Look at Cut Throats room, he has plenty of room and can sit a few people comfortably to listen without shifting positions every 20 seconds like musical chairs.
You have to start somewhere so use the position you like and augment things until it sounds 'right'.
Thanks.
I've been experimenting with various adjustments most of the day including main speakers and the subs. The wife was out with her friends so no honey do interruptions ;-)
Geoff is right. I've got my Quads at 6 feet center to center of tweet panels and it's just right. Image is beyond borders of speakers and it's quite difficult to point to anything except the location of instruments. Giant headphones. Thanks for mentioning this Geoff
Geoff recommends speaker placement 4 -5 feet apart. But, like you, I ended up choosing on 6 feet apart (center to center).5 feet (wall to speaker front) from the wall behind them in my 11' X 18' room has also proved optimal, in my room and with my speakers (with a sitting distance 10 - 11 feet away from the speaker fronts).
4 - 5 feet apart has never produced the biggest soundstage in my room - no matter how I adjust speaker toe-in or distance from the wall behind.
Putting the speakers closer than 6 feet apart solidifies the central "phantom image" a bit more, but it also shrinks my soundstage somewhat.
Optimal speaker placement is too speaker-dependent and/or room-dependent to make generalizations about, I think.
Edits: 05/19/22 05/19/22
But I was making generalizations AND I was also saying one MUST use a speaker set up track in order to get the correct result. What I probably should have said is what the guy on the XLO TEST CD said which is START at about 4 feet between speakers and gradually move them apart. Trying to get the right placement without a foolproof method, i.e., TEST CD - you can only find local maximum locations, but not the real maximum locations. People toe in too much and separate the speakers too much, generally. It's not a question of feet it's a question of centimeters. Trying to find the best locations by moving speakers a foot at a time hascabout as much chance of success as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle.I should warn you the set-up track requires that the room be treated *sufficiently well* to be able to "hear the sound coming from all around you, with no particular direction." This is not easy, trust me. It's certainly not something you can achieve in a day or two. When the system can do that with out of phase signal it will have best sound,most focus and biggest soundstage when signal is in phase. Most rooms are hideously out of whack acoustically, it would take a long time just to get them squared away enough to be able to utilize the speaker setup track. How do I know this, you ask. Because I'm from the future.
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he's from the future
"A room full of bass" is not what I'm suggesting. At all. Where did you get from? Think of it like speaker placement, there needs to be a deliberate method, otherwise you'll never find the optimum locations. Trying to find speaker (or subwoofer) locations by making the system look symmetrical or guessing where the best sound is is like trying to solve x simultaneous equations in x + n unknowns. Having four speakers means you have even more simultaneous equations to solve.
No matter how much you have in the end you would have had even more if you had started out with more. - Audiophile axiom
Would be a digital crossover. I ought to be surprised that I am the first person suggesting this but sadly I am not. A digital crossover allows you to fully control how much of the frequency range each driver carries. You can impliment very steep slopes with zero phase shift or loss of time alingnment. So you can get the best from each driver with minimal overlap and no compromise.
We're dealing with the twin issues issues of sound pressure and sound velocity that are naturally tied to frequency-response/tonal balance. Also, there's the issues of extra expense and complexity introduced by a digital crossover to consider.DSP or EQ can be a good thing. But the room must "feel" right as well as *sound right*. Sound velocity and sound pressure must be physically "tuned" in order for a room the feel right.
Proper speaker placement and physical or "hard" room treatments will therefore remain my first line of defense in combatting room and frequency reponse issues. DSP or EQ would remain "the frosting on the cake" for me - if I feel that it might be needed at all after my "first line of defense".
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you can add EQto get better frequency response...but the digital crossover is still high and low pass filters. Just without the limitations of analog filters.
Filtering does provide you with a form of "EQ" though. Correct ?
yeah....as does a volume control. Think about it.
and don't forget everybody, EQ is what recording desks and mastering are about if necessary. Making corrections here and there are almost always done, with exceptions like classical music that has minimalist miking.
Doug Sax comes to mind with the Coles Ribbon single microphone in Weiley Chapel.
No doubt rooms can skew the frequency response depending on the room and the radiation patterns and positioning of the speakers.
None of which has anything to do with my original point that digital active crossovers are better.
yea, sorry, I veered off the path
Your point is valid and probably needs to said more often. Even if it's a bit off subject
Check out Wayne Parham's discussion here:https://www.pispeakers.com/Multisub.html
This multisub approach comes from Wayne and Earl Geddes, and is an important part of Duke Lejeune's (AudioKinesis) systems.
What you have shown here is the part of what Wayne calls the 'flanking' sub approach which mostly smooths up to the Schroeder frequency. Subs further away from the mains do more to balance low bass nulls. The Pispeaker's forum has more nuggets from Wayne tha elaborate on the link above.
Edits: 05/16/22
When you employ four subs (a-la AudioKinesis' "The Swarm"), it is recommended that one sub be placed in a corner location with the others in various other locations (various 1/3 points throughout the room is usually very good).But, placing individual subs in two different corners is NOT recommended. One in corner placement usually sounds much better than two.
Also, having one sub switched into opposite phase from the other three helps as well.
But the golden rule to follow in any type of speaker placement is, as always: "Whatever Sounds Best."
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While the Sound Labs upstairs don't need reinforcement, the smaller Acoustats in the HT benefit from dual powered subs. I experimented greatly with placement along with both high and low pass crossover settings in the processor - measuring the results each time.
In the current room, one is in a corner while the other is more centrally located. Symmetric placement tends to reinforce room modes in the rooms I've measured.
Although in general symmetry in a stereo system is nice (imaging, soundstage...), subwoofers in theory could be better in non-symmetry, yep.
All things being equal symmetry has little to do with the final outcome. That's because all types speakers have different radiation patterns, thus reflection points and room echo and standing waves in a given room will be different for every speaker. Not to mention different rooms have different responses to radiation patterns.Besides, once you get into room treatments everything changes again. You can't rely on your "feelings" as to where the best locations are, your chances of stumbling onto the absolute best ones are like finding a needle in a haystack. There is only one set of best locations. Within about an inch or so.
Toe in - You should find the sound to be best, more focused with bigger soundstage be best when there isn't any toe in, the reason a lot of people like toe in is because they have not optimized speaker location and/or their speakers are too far apart. But there is no hard fast rule because of all the variables.
And panels are a different story altogether.
The only sure fire way to know what's going on is to use the speaker setup track. You can't go by feeling. And every time you make a change to the room, guess what? You have to go through the speaker setup again.
Edits: 05/19/22
In other rooms (possibly, MOST other rooms?) the asymmetrical approach rings the bells.Theories are fine but we've got to be willing to experiment, anyway. Only then do we know - or at least think that we know.
Edits: 05/17/22
Yes, I am still experimenting. I'm not looking for a room full of bass but some localization of Left and Right channel bass. So far so good.
I'm sticking my head in here because all sounds wave pressures are directional even outside with no barriers. The lowest are harder to hear the direction, it just takes a bit longer to determine.
I don't agree with the one corner sub location, but experimentation in your room will figure that one out.
I'm pretty sure you probably know this but, when you set things up with the same exact song or passage with a good amount of lower frequencies, listen with one well set up sub and then switch to 2. When you have 2 make sure the level is adjusted a bit for that.
Then decide if 1 or 2 pressurizes the room better. The low frequencies of instruments rarely if ever have fundamental tones with no harmonics of the fundamental frequency. Don't listen using pure sine waves from 30 to 50 hz
I have some tracks with deep double bass and I'm experimenting with one sub at the moment. Thanks.
Bass at 80hz or so and below should sound like what it actually is: Omni-directional bass. If bass below 80hz or so seems "localized", then you've got room problems or are in need of some adjustments, or both.In the same vein, "stereo bass" typically begins above 80hz or so. If bass above 80hz or so does not seem stereophonic, there is something wrong too.
Whenever I speak of smooth, even bass over "a wide and tall listening window", I'm mostly referring to accurate sounding bass in the omni-directional range of bass (below 80z or so), without distinct peaks or troughs in the frequency response. When bass should not sound too omni-directional (but stereophonic instead) and "localized", I do want to hear that represented accurately too.
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I don't agree with their comment on only one corner for subs, and I would guess a few others don't either.It spreads nicely and evenly around the whole room when you set them up in 2 corners. When you're in the old Wanamaker's in Philly, now Macy's, to hear the pipe organ, you are completely surrounded 360 with the low pedal registers tickling your entire body. You cannot tell the direction. I have my subs corner loaded and the bass spreads around the room gently. Running just one of them would be a mistake. NO it cannot duplicate the sound and power of Macy's but it took me 2 years to dial things in and I like it. If people do not like what they're hearing they are in the wrong hobby. You can't believe everything you read.
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I always follow that Golden Rule.
.
Your interest may vary but the results will be same. (Byrd 2020)
I can't compete with the dead. (Buck W. 2010)
Cowards can't be heroes. (Byrd 2017)
Why don't catfish have kittens? (Moe Howard 1937)
maybe a generality
Obviously, one person's gold might be another person's tin.
nt
Loosen up a bit, let your balls hang low. Let 'em wobble two and fro.
Edits: 05/18/22
I don't like them flippin and floppin around, never did. I wear Calvin Klein's
In other words, set it up how you like, not someone else.
That said, taking advice to see if something else works is good, always good to experiment, try new things. But if it doesn't sound right to you, in your room, go back to what does to your ears.
Good show Abe, nice this is working for you.
Over the last several decades, since I've been more serious about music reproduction, I've never really had the space to experiment with adding subs. So take my comments with a pinch of salt.
Because of my general audio interest I have read a fair bit about subs and paid close attention during demos. I think I've learned a few things.
One, I believe it is true that the best sub integration is when it is not obvious they are part of the system. But then turn them off and you will immediately miss them. Proper foundation can be subtle, except with canons and 16 Hz organ notes. ;^)
Effective low bass information does add to mid-bass and above. That can include a greater sense of spaciousness to the recording.
Depending on the system, it may make a difference whether the subs are overlaid to the main speakers operating full range, or wether the mains are rolled off for bass below a given frequency where the subs come in.
I had a great demo many years ago of the latter. It was at a small specialty dealer who featured Quads and Spendors. I owned Spendor BC-1s at the time and wanted to hear those aided by subs. For the demo the dealer started with a violin recording. Amazingly, given the frequency range of that instrument, the recording sounded more realistic with the subs playing. Not only was there more sense of ambience around the instrument but there was a subtle increase in apparent foundation to the music. The dealer explained that by rolling off the Spendors (I've long forgotten the frequency) the main speakers and their amplification were relieved from seeing anything below that point, which reduced distortion and slightly increased dynamics. I really regretted not having adequate space of subs then.
Some years later I had a pair of Cain & Cain speakers which produce a flatter and more satisfying response from about 60 Hz on up than anything I'd tried before that. But too much was missing with that first octave and a half so that I couldn't keep them without subs.
"The only cats worth anything are the cats who take chances. Sometimes I play things I never heard myself." Thelonious Monk
> > That can include a greater sense of spaciousness to the recording.
Indeed.
With a blindfold on, imagine finding yourself in a closet.
What is the sense of space you experience therein?
Now--with a blindfold on--imagine finding yourself in a cathedral.
What is the sense of space you experience therein?
Question: Absent visual context, which setting sounds more
"spacious", even without any sound being played?
Our bodies know.
I studied all the philosophies and all the theologies but cheerfulness kept breaking through.
Leonard Cohen
... enjoy ! You might try experimenting with subwoofer risers, if you are so inclinedHere's some more subwoofer risers, isolation options, etc...
Edits: 05/16/22
Some people have tried hockey pucks under their subs, with good results.
I have my sub behind me. Blends with the mains just fine there.
.., at least some of the time.
I had hockey pucks under the Tannoys a few years ago to tilt them up slightly.
It's not like the thick carpet over concrete floor is reverberating; It's pretty dead. However, I'm not opposed to trying spikes or risers. Still experimenting.
One of the things I eventually accomplished in my multi-subwoofer system ?Each of my four subwoofers is now placed at different heights (as well as different horizontal locations throughout in the room), ranging from ground level to five feet above the floor. In this way my multi-subwoofer system helps to smooth out both horizontal and vertical room modes. When they were all sitting on the floor, bass did not sound quite as smooth and even (over the wider and taller listening window that I'm enjoying right now).
I do realize that placement and "WAF" constraints might trouble many of us here, but the above idea is something to experiment with if you ever have the opportinity.
Edits: 05/16/22
I can probably go up / down slightly with the subs but having multiples in different parts of the room would not go over very well with the wife. And, I'm hesitant to run subwoofer cables around the room. But thanks for the ideas. I could try risers.
I have a pair of HSU ULS-15 II subs and initially had them set up similar to your picture, only a little behind the plane of the speakers. I thought that sounded pretty good until I tried them in the corners behind the speakers. Things really got very good with that placement, so that's where they stayed.
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
About 12 years ago, I discovered the benefit of supplementing a pair of full range Fostex speakers with a sub. The Fostex were new. They definitely lacked bass. I had recently bought a pair of M&K at auction. I didn't plan on using them myself but when I hooked one up to the office system, there was no unhooking. The Fostex took a long time to break in. They produce a nice bass now, but I still use the sub. It's dialed in to the point of almost not being on.
Your interest may vary but the results will be same. (Byrd 2020)
I can't compete with the dead. (Buck W. 2010)
Cowards can't be heroes. (Byrd 2017)
Why don't catfish have kittens? (Moe Howard 1937)
the first 2 octaves are there one way or another and I thought that places like this understood this. IT'S FUNDAMENTAL. Enjoy it when you dial it in so you can stop thinking about it.
Subs in My experiences :-) are Purely workarounds for Speakers that are missing or incapable of satisfying bottom octaves.
But Hey! if it works for you... sit back and enjoy.
Audio should be about pleasing yourself rather than open mouth Forum inmates.
The subs are working for me. They're giving me just that little bit of additional response lower than my Tannoys will go.What full range speakers do you use?
Edits: 05/15/22
"What I wasn't expecting was a little more overall "clarity" and larger soundstage. Is this possible?"are you crossing the lows out of the signal feeding the main amplifier?
It has been my experience that that improves the mids and the highs.
Edit, I see G Squared beat me to it.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 05/15/22
I'm simply running the full bandwidth line-out signal from my preamp RCA jacks to the line-in on the subs. The subs are doing their own low pass duties and the main speakers are getting full bandwidth from the power amps.
Preamp XLRs to power amps
Preamp RCAs to subwoofers
"the main speakers are getting full bandwidth from the power amps."
So the woofers in your main speakers are having to deal with the ultra low frequencies while at the same time trying to, among other things, play at least part of the midrange.
Your main amplifiers are having to deal with the ultra low frequencies while at the same time trying to, among other things, trying to play the midrange and the highs.
Taking the frequencies, that the sub woofers will be handling, out of the main amps and the main speakers can make a big difference.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
"Taking the frequencies, that the sub woofers will be handling, out of the main amps and the main speakers can make a big difference."I don't know how to do that with what I have but so far the setup is sounding better than it did w/o the subs.
What do you suggest?
Edits: 05/15/22
Hi Abe,I had one of these with my old set up with a 300B amp powering a pair of ~90db efficient monitors. I had the amp in the Velodyne sub handle all the =/> 50Hz frequencies, freeing the 300B amp to do what it does best with the mids and highs.
The crossover is also 1/2 width :).
Edits: 05/16/22
I use in line high pass filters from Harrison Labs. They are between my preamp and amp for the mains.
Gsquared
Thanks for the link. I had no idea about Harrison Labs. The standard value XLR FMOD that I think makes the most sense is the 150-Hz high pass x2. The other choice is 20-Hz which seems to low. What do you think?
I believe my main speakers go down to about 40 Hz.
I have 2 sets. 70 Hz for the LRS and 50 Hz for the ProAcs.
Gsquared
Edits: 05/16/22
I might try a couple Harrison balanced XLR high-pass from the preamp to power amp for driving my main speakers. These tower speakers are rated -3dB at 40Hz. The Harrison choices for XLR high-pass filters are 20Hz 30Hz 50Hz 70Hz and 100Hz. I'm confused on which might be the best choice. I'm thinking 30 50 or 70. Any thoughts?
Tannoy D500 Specs:
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
My ProAcs are rated to 27 HZ (I think that rating was +/- 6 db) so probably close to the same low frequency extension as the Tannoys. I use the 50 Hz FMOD. Seems right in my system with the ProAcs. You do want some overlap to make the integration as seemless as possible. 50 is likely a good point for your Tannoy's and may also work with the Thiels. 30 is likely too low and 70 seems way too high.The LRS really need the higher cutoff point. They do not like deep bass.
Like the music or not I found that Diana Krall, Turn Up the Quiet's track, Like Someone in Love is a good track to dial in the integration right by ear with the sub's controls. The acoustic bass lines are very revealing of bad/good integration. The presence of the sub should be invisible in the music, just your system sound w/o a bottom limit.
Gsquared
Edits: 05/16/22
Thanks. I just order a pair of 50-Hz XLR units to try out. I'll even force myself to listen to Diana Krall when they arrive ;-)
Edits: 05/16/22
I agree with G Squared, 50Hz is good, same as I'd use for my 3.6 Maggie's with a similar low end. With the roll off of the xover you'll be in the zone, just have to play with the sub settings again.
Glad you and few folks chimed in. Thanks. I've never considered a filter / cross-over. Even without one, the system is sounding a little better with the subs vs without. If the filters don't work out I'll just remove them.
I ran without subs for a few years break, just went back to with. Nice improvement. I might try a set myself. Too bad $30 US becomes $60+ CAD by the time it hits my mailbox...
The nexus of good sound and WAF. It works out positioned like an end table about 1/3 of the way to the listening plane against the wall.
Gsquared
Edits: 05/16/22 05/16/22
Never tried it so close, but known a few who have to good results. WAF isn't applicable in my case, but if it were I'd try it out.
Sorry for the bad pic. The sub is at the end of an L shaped sectional. The prime listening position is on the other "leg" of the sectional. The sub is much closer to the speakers than me.
Gsquared
Got it. Don't know that it matters really though. I know there used to be a Canadian mag called UHF. A few of the reviewers swore by having the sub behind (IOW super close to) the listener...
I checked it out quickly, they also offer (pull down from 20Hz) 30, 50, 70...
Edits: 05/16/22
I must have missed the pull-down menu!
I use a passive balanced Marchand high-pass filter (80 Hz/24 dB) that sits between the preamp and amp. If you don't mind unbalanced to your mains, you might try inexpensive Harrison high-pass filters -- I have no experience with them, just saw them recommended in a post.
Auralex Sub Dudes provide good isolation under my pair of Velodyne HGS-15.
db
Two of my Velodyne HGS-15s are in the corners on the same wall as the mains. The mains in-room response is around 30 Hz, but I get a greater sense of spaciousness with the subs set at 80 Hz. I don't understand why this should be, but I sure like the sound.
The third HGS-15 is diagonally across the room, set for LFE and used only for surround for which it adds an interesting sense of ambience.
db
One of my setups is KEF LS50 Metas or Magnepan LRSs with a pair of KEF KC62 subs. KEF recommends 45 Hz low-pass and 70 Hz high-pass for the LS50s. Would those settings be OK for the LRSs as well?
I'm not very experienced with subs or your speakers so I wouldn't know what filter would be best. On your suggestion and a couple other mentions, I decided to purchase a couple Harrison high-pass filters. Thanks.
Edits: 05/17/22 05/17/22
Review:
I'll lookup Marchand. Thanks! I'm also seeing Harrison high pass filters. It appears that they make XLR versions.
Welcome to there is no bottom.
Give them a try against the sidewalls 1/3 out toward the listening position plane. Then put one a corner of front wall.
Every room is different, but these are good test points. I also roll the amp to the mains off using a in line high pass filter.
Gsquared
Isolate the subs.
Hang 'em from 1970's style Macrame plant hangers or use spikes?EDIT: My original post was botched because the Asylum wouldn't accept the tilde I placed over the "e" in macrame. The complete sentence is now shown above.
Edits: 05/15/22 05/15/22
Wouldn't bungee cords be better? Hmmmmm.
Isolating them is better than hanging them, the reason is that isolating them (on springs) reduces cabinet resonance in addition to isolating the rest of the system from mechanical feedback from the subs. There may also be some benefit from isolating the subs from seismic low frequency vibes as well. That's three, three mints in one!
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