|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
99.29.62.197
Nicely done series of videos I had not seen.
Happy Holidays
Follow Ups:
YouTube.. Home to all the self proclaimed experts..
don't forget to hit Like and be sure to subscribe and buy lots of merch..
It's not all crapola.. but people sure find ways to fill up space with not a lot of useful info..
An expert can be defined as someone who used to be a drip under pressure.
I guess the video would be good for an audio newbie...... Some comments.....I wouldn't say that lossy compressed audio has "drastically reduced sound quality".... If the resolution of MP3 is at least 256 kbps, most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference, relative to Redbook CD resolution. (I've personally failed this, see this NPR comparison test, the link below.)
Another comment was the video used 48 kHz as its digital sample rate during the "analog vs. digital" comparison.... Which is somewhat higher than the sample rate of Redbook CD at 44.1 kHz..... But one would need either DVD-A or streaming services to actually realize the 48 kHz sample rate. (Some viewers might presume this is the rate for CD, but it isn't.)
The Nyquist theorem is generally an adequate explanation for frequency response, but one must also bring up the digital "filtering" in the D/A side, in order to truly reproduce the waveform accurately. (This could be why "48 kHz" was chosen for the sample rate.... The filtering becomes far less critical if the sample rate is above that of Redbook CD.) Some, including myself, also believe that Nyquist theorem does not adequately account for time response. It's only fully adequate for *periodic* signals, which many would argue is not what music depicts all of the time.
There was no mention of the importance of the setup of the vinyl rig..... A vinyl rig that is not set up with exacting alignments will not only lose out to CD, but to MP3 as well.
There was also no mention of RFI emissions possibly affecting one's enjoyment of digital audio..... Too many people treat this as if the problem doesn't exist, but I think it is the single worst problem plaguing active digital audio playback..... (If this had been addressed, vinyl may have gone the way of the 8-track tape.) I do believe that RFI often plays a major role in people's preferences for a digital audio source, even though they may not realize it. (I also believe it affects people's preferences in the music itself, something that I don't believe is the case with analog playback.)
And finally, the lack of visibility and control over various releases or pressings in streaming digital audio, which is the main reason why I've personally avoided this as a primary form of music playback..... With all the added processing to various releases of classic albums (including Auto-Tune and other remixes), I would be leery about whether I'm getting an unadulterated copy of a given album. There is "visual feedback" in CDs and other physical media that becomes lost (other than a "graphic" on a computer screen, which may or may not depict an actual pressing), in regard to choosing which pressing to acquire.... Such options may not even be available with streaming audio. (I cannot count how many times I've scoured Amazon and eBay, looking for a specific release of an album, because I've previously acquired a release that turned out to be compromised.)
Each person's individual situation should be looked into in order to determine what is best for him/her. For some, vinyl might be the best option.... For others, CD might be the best option..... Yet for others, streaming digital audio might be the best option..... There really is no "better" here, from a general or universal standpoint..... It all depends on an individual's resources, budget, technical savvy, musical preferences, and sonic preferences.
Edits: 11/24/21
And finally, the lack of visibility and control over various releases or pressings in streaming digital audio, which is the main reason why I've personally avoided this as a primary form of music playback..... With all the added processing to various releases of classic albums (including Auto-Tune and other remixes), I would be leery about whether I'm getting an unadulterated copy of a given album. There is "visual feedback" in CDs and other physical media that becomes lost (other than a "graphic" on a computer screen, which may or may not depict an actual pressing), in regard to choosing which pressing to acquire.... Such options may not even be available with streaming audio. (I cannot count how many times I've scoured Amazon and eBay, looking for a specific release of an album, because I've previously acquired a release that turned out to be compromised.)For casually surfing around and discovering new music, I don't think you can beat Qobuz + Roon at the moment. And when you're informed, "24/96" or "24/192," I think you can believe it. But, when it comes time to go deep into something that's been around for longer than one release, you're spot on to urge caution. The most recent digital remaster is rarely the preferred remaster ... and yet that's what streaming services are almost sure to have available. So, you're off to https://dr.loudness-war.info/ and http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/forums/music-corner.2/ -- doing the research, soliciting opinions -- before hitting up eBay or Discogs.
You still need a CD player at the end of 2021 (very much so).
Edits: 11/26/21 11/26/21
Especially your first one, thanks.
If it sounds good it is good - best advice I heard on any of the videos.
I watched 3 of the videos and think it's good stuff to know. But is any of it required in order to build a musically satisfying audio system?
An interesting series-
I do appreciate the length that he is going to to make a point - he is not clearly in one or the other camp on the D versus A question-
However I did listen/watch his short video on Balanced & Unbalanced cables - and while he got most of the technical bits correctly, the example leaves a lot to be desired - namely that there is lost of noise on the Balanced example - just a few dB down from the unbalanced cable...
there are a lot more issues w/ this topic and the variety of cable variations ...
Listening to this most will say - Yes, XLR/Balanced is the answer
I am not convinced
Happy Listening
neither am I
Ah, the age old question, which is better, digital or analog? Lol
First off, not all LPs are made from digital. Steve Berkowitz' Beatles Mono went from master tape to cutting head, with Steve adding level adjustments and EQ as needed on the fly.
Next: what's better, digital or analog?
The answer is Plangent, which uses the tape's bias signal, normally around 40 kHz, to clock a digital session. With the bias waveform as clock, much of the smearing and loss of detail due to mechanical imperfections of tape are corrected. Plangent recordings get so much more out of any recording made on tape. The clarity of low-level detail can be breathtaking. Check out Bob Ludwig's Plangent remastering of the Springsteen "Darkness" and "Born to Run" albums on hdtracks, or the Saint-Saëns Symphony No. 3 with Paray/Detroit, remastered with Plangent by Tom Fine on prostudiomasters.
WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.
unfortunately it willlikely be shunned since it is a digital system despite the improved sound quality you get from it.
The originals don't really rate more than low volume - the music deserves much more. These are now on my wishlist thanks to you and Bills recommendation - thanks.
As I said before it's more complicated than just being a case of LPs being generally digital files, and of course there are exceptions. Besides we still have the millions of original analog tape based LPs floating around. There are digital cassettes, using digital files, DAT, cassettes from DAT, and pure cassettes from analog tape. That's been true since the 80s. Digital LPs were big audiophile favs in the 80s.Obviously, CDs don't all sound the same. Some have excellent resolution but lousy dynamic range, some are very open and airy, like analog. That's why I suggest a table of desired characteristics and weighting them according to your preferences. That methodology will give a more accurate answer to the question, which is better - analog or digital? I never said there could not be LPs that sound "excellent" AND CDs that sound excellent. Certainly treated CDs sound better than untreated CDs. It's not black and white.
Edits: 11/24/21 11/24/21
Succinct, honest, informed (from someone we suspect is well informed
yet is frequently, intentionally oblique, baffling and deflecting).
You OK or am I getting soft in my older age?
(Never mind, it's NOT so black and white...)
Nice post.
Treated CDs do sound MUCH betterer than untreated ones...
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
"Ah, the age old question, which is better, digital or analog? Lol"
The answer is different for everyone...... Each person has different priorities, tastes in sound, and tastes in music..... Analog might be the best option for one person, and digital might be the best option for another......
Then there's an oddball like me, who enjoys both analog and digital..... Specifically Redbook CD in a traditional CD player and a vinyl rig..... And tries to optimize both formats..... It's not so much which is "better" in my applications, but which is most appropriate for a given time and situation.
I laid out the differences personally..... But the take is totally different than the one on the video linked at the top of this thread....
There probably should be a method, the method that would give best results is the time honored trade off study, constructing a complete table of Sonic Characteristics and the weight the individual performing the study attaches to each Sonic Characteristic. For example, tonality, distortion, dynamic range, tape hiss, presence, air, resolution, (these are subjective characteristics, by the way), bass performance, all the rest, whatever you can think of on the table. Then make two columns, one for analog, one for digital. The weight for each Sonic Characteristic can be a number from 1-5 for example.Obviously, peoples' tastes vary, we known that. But totaling up the weights for each column A and D will give a good indication of what that individual prefers, analog or digital. But as I pointed out previously, things are not straightforward any more, LPs are digital files, almost everything is overly compressed, etc. Plus the outcome is colored by other factors, too many to mention - room acoustic treatments, tweaks, etc. But comparing technical specs as the guy in the video did, for example concluding analog sounds better because of its inherent distortion is rather silly. That was my point. He sounds like a spokesman for the Audio QAnon Society.
Edits: 11/24/21 11/24/21 11/24/21 11/24/21
Digital ;-)If you want the distortion that translates into a bit of analog warmth, that can easily be added with DSP. And if you want a tad bit of hiss with some clicks and pops, those can be easily created with DSP effects as well.
Digital is technically superior. Which "sound" you prefer and how you achieve it is a matter of personal preference.
Edits: 11/23/21
works great, and when I want a bit more LP nostalgia I bump the turntable while it is playing so I can hear it skip :)
. I judge any sound system by how tiring it is to listen to.
Linkwitz
NT
Without taking some serious steps to correct chronic problems with digital playback of CDs, the experienced and discerning listener will find the sound of CDs generally to be rolled off, two dimensional, boomy, thin, metallic, edgy, boring, unnatural, compressed, airless, atonal, congealed, synthetic, threadbare and like paper mache.
Edits: 11/24/21
Isn't it usually said that vinyl sounds "rolled off" at the frequency extremes, compared to digital ?
Also, when I think of "paper mache" I think of things like pinatas. I've never heard a pinata make any sound on it's own but I'll try to listen more carefully next time.
Vinyl allows higher frequencies. Digital is limited by the sampling frequency, for Redbook 44 samples per second, the highest frequency is 1/2 sample rate = 22 kHz. on the other hand, I've seen vinyl specified as wide as 7-50KHz. Besides, I'm actually referring to the perceived performance, not the theoretical performance. Haven't you been paying attention? Digital generally lacks the sparkle and air of analog. Hel-loo!
Edits: 11/25/21 11/25/21 11/25/21
Assuming my "correction" applies, I would STRONGLY dispute that - at least that's the way I. . . perceive it. ;-)
And, BTW, not all digital is 16/44.1 CD-rez. If you listen to Qobuz, you'll see (and hear!) more and more 24/96 (or even 24/192) recordings these days. And beyond that, I have a number of DSD256 and DXD downloads myself - in MCh too, even Dolby Atmos. When analog can do DXD, or 24/48 Dolby Atmos, feel free to get back to me. ;-)
Nt
Just kidding !
If only you could hear what I've heard with my ears. Then you'd understand.
... they might only be audible on a "subliminal" level. And the "air and sparkle" that some claim to perceive in vinyl playback could be due to other factors besides frequency-response and/or frequency-range.Personally, I do enjoy vinyl playback. But hear less extra "air and sparkle in it than I do extra midrange richness. Perhaps my hearing is shot ? Or perhaps, I'm using an inferior cartidge, etc.. ?
Edits: 11/25/21 11/25/21
Nt
I say, listen to whatever sounds best within budget limitations and be happy with that. For some that could mean digital, for others that could mean analog.
Nt
With maybe some non jump blues too.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
I just had a thought about room treatments and if perhaps optimization might be different for analog vs digital playback. Perhaps to the degree where extreme room treatment for one could actually negate any virtues of the other. And vice versa.
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
don't know if you saw this, which is worth seeing.
At link.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Yes! I had seen that. Amazing!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
And certain types of room treatments are easily removable and/or interchangeable.
Go for it !
...-is those abdominal gray open-cell foam squares you see plastered all over recording studios. The work of the devil. SONEX or anything that looks like it. Including IKEA Poang chairs, they have that crap inside. Yes, I know what you're thinking, but they're so comfortable and cheap!
Edits: 11/29/21 11/29/21
and he has super hearing that affords him a range out to 40khz, so he hears limitations like a bat. It's his Radar Love to the industry
Nt
I always wanted some radar love but could never find any. Oh well.
digital that isn't screwed up (by accident or on purpose) is more *accurate* (superior is subjective in nature).
Which sounds better is always a matter of opinion.
I'm not so convinced that the many euphonic colorations of vinyl playback have been so well replicated with DSP programs. Hopefully there will be some further advancements on that front.
Tics and pops are not what people like myself are drawn to in our preference for vinyl.
And there is more to vinyl playback than "analog warmth"
"And there is more to vinyl playback than "analog warmth"Of course! I've been through the rituals myself ;-)
Level the TT, mount the cartridge with teenie screws, attach the teenie cartridge wires, adjust tracking force, anti-skate, azimuth alignment, vertical tracking angle, clean the stylus, find the LP among the hundreds or thousands that you own, carefully remove the record from its sleeve, handle the record without getting your greasy finger prints on it, clean the LP thoroughly in a RCM or just wipe it with a brush, carefully lower the tonearm, gently walk back to the listening chair to avoid a footfall skip. Sit down and revel in your accomplishment as the music finally begins. And get up again in a few minutes to flip the album over.
I'm just giving vinyl lovers a hard time.
Edits: 11/23/21
They are just the things you need to do to play records. And IMO they are a chore. I'd prefer for vinyl to be a simpler medium.
But what you do get with vinyl is perceptual increase in dynamic range, harmonic complexity and a greater sense of ambience and depth of sound stage. Not all distortions are subjectively bad.
You also have much greater range in tailoring the sound through the choice of hardware.
Abe, I admit that I personally find playing vinyl to be a little bit of a PITA. My digital sounds great, and the convenience of streaming from the internet or my NAS drive, plus being able to control it with the app from anywhere in the house is amazing.
Playing records is a bit of a ritual which requires my full attention, which isn't entirely a bad thing, because when I'm spinning records I'm not doing anything else. There's no multitasking, plus I have some older records that will probably never be released in a digital format. Enjoy it on vinyl, or not at all.
Vinyl is a PITA, all right. All that can be said for it is that it's the best sounding source I have. Sigh.
nt
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
Nt
as many pro's would disagree. There are outstanding examples of both.
It's a different world now, digital can be done right and so can analogue.
Now send me all your analogue stuff, my address is....
Nt
d
Records are all digital files. Just like the Telarcs, etc. 35 years ago. Only now the records are overly compressed. 35 years ago analog had better dynamic range than digital, now they are both overly compressed. As for digital playback nothing new under the sun, all the problems that plagued digital 40 years ago are still unsolved. Scattered laser light, RFI/EMI interference, seismic vibration, internal vibration, among other problems. Prices are higher, I'll grant you that. For many audiophiles their preference is and always has been a self fulfilling prophecy. People believe what they choose to believe. As Bob Dylan says at the end of all his records, good luck to everyone.
Edits: 11/23/21
cheers!
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: