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I want beauty. Not truth.
Follow Ups:
Truth is beauty and beauty truth. And beauty is subjective. Dang, I don't like where this is going.
Nt
After all, the arts (including music) are not a democracy. ;-)
Its my belief that truth and beauty are really all inclusive in system assembly.
Truth;
I believe most posters here are audiophiles or dedicated to getting the best sound reproduction in home for the dollar or budget allowed.
With that being said, If its okay to say, imo its the pursuit of accuracy in equipment selection and its combined ability to work ttogether as a circuit, speaker and amplifiers, dacs and servers, vinyl and phono, that recreate a honest or true account of the recorded event.
Audiophile...
Still JUST an attempt for a grand illusion but worth pursuing in our obsession to obtain accuracy or TRUTH and BEAUTY in recordings through our carefully assembled systems.
Beauty...
Is the synergy in the equipment you have so carefully chosen and its ability to move one emotionally when listening.
Being able to locate performers and positions on stage, correct instrumental tones, being able to hear the slight differences in instruments, micro and macro dynamic life, lifelike male and female vocals.
Toe tapping is a good sign too but when listening to recordings that " put you there"
and create emotions that stir your soul and move you to another time and place thats when the " beauty" of the system we each put our efforts in rewards one for " Hopefully🤞" many years to come.
Audiophile... Truth ... Beauty...
All one and mutually...the same imo...
Regards,
/// Tim W. ///
"Beauty is less important than quality."
-Eugene Ormandy
To hell with truth and beauty!Let the philosophers argue over which is preferable.
Edits: 05/17/21
The beauty is the truth!
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
"I want beauty. Not truth."
A lot of people who claim this may also claim to be audiophiles..... I don't see a correlation here.........
Why do you suppose truth and beauty are are mutually exclusive. It is possible to have both truth and beauty in your audio system at a variety of prices and configurations.
which is impossible to define. Even the New Beauty can be hideous.
for stating what should have been said long ago on this seemingly endless thread of nitpickers
yes! thank you!
these are forms complimentary to one another
they become art through harmony & synergy
with regards,
n/t
x
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
There is no "true" sound. All audio reproductions, however sophisticated, are mere shadows on the wall.A piano in real space. But where is the listener? The microphone? The sound will change significantly depending on location. As well as on countless other physical and psycho-acoustic factors.
So why not just enjoy the sound that pleases you and inspires you. That makes you happy.
Rather than chase what is, in plain fact, unobtainable.
My humble 70s dorm system. Happy. My endlessly tweaked, relentlessly costly current system. Meh.
My bold, colorful, bass-loving Campfire Cascade headphones. With a modest iFi DSD Black amp/DAC running Roon and Tidal.
Delight again. Not discontent.
Non-truth is fun.
Edits: 05/14/21
dipping below quasi when you put the effort into it?
Or verse vicea.
Beautiful and makes sense you're posting on the Asylum.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
nt
j
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
"A piano in real space. But where is the listener? The microphone?"
9' Baldwin concert grand, lid open. Pair of U67s as a stereo pair in figure 8 about 5' back, 6' high looking down at the sound board.
Stand there listening, retreat to the control room and listen. Make small microphone position changes until the sound in the control room matches the sound in the studio. Done.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
was not based on how components sounded, or taste of music, but when I first held an album by the outside edge before placing it on a platter. Life was so much simpler then!
Cheers!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
Wrong. You are an audiophile. Being an audiophile is not the result of what you search for but rather where you search. Search for beauty, truth or the meaning of life, it doesn't matter. One could say that the SS camp seeks truth and the tube camp seeks beauty. Is one less an audiophile that the other? I think not.
I'm glad that somebody has the "truth" part of the equation covered, for your benefit.
is to determine whether or not there have been any upgrades since the 2007 based equipment list.
If there have been, you're an audiophile! ;)
Aw c'mon E-stat you can get to a point where you're content with your audio system! I'm 67 and except for upgrading my DAC and either adding a sub or possibly changing speakers I'm done and content...
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
nt
Bill Evans/Ascention.
Can't be both.
Or Can it?
To me truth is absolute and beauty is subjective. But there certainly can be truth in beauty, and that truth can be beautiful.
On subjective matters...
Tis with our judgements as our watches, none go just alike yet each believes his own - Alexander Pope
NT
That ain't no Crosley stereo listed.
Not even Bose for that matter.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Roughly 20 years ago, I met someone (doing repair/maintenance work in my house) who called himself an audiophile, and invited me to his house to listen to his "Bose system"..... He said this explicitly, as if it was something really special to listen to......
At the time, I "brushed off" the invite, and lost touch with the individual shortly thereafter..... But in retrospect, I wish I followed up on his offer, just to satisfy my curiosity on how that Bose system actually sounded.....
I also remember, from the rec.audio Usenet days, a guy named Gary Eickmeier, who was also a big proponent of Bose speakers. Used to drive fellow audiophiles crazy on the rec.audio boards.
which is fine IMO. I have friends that upgraded to Bose from what they used previously
and enjoy that. That is all that matters in the long run.
The OP sez he's NOT an audiophile though he clearly has an audiophile system listed.
It's his lack of connecting the dots which is puzzling, not the definition of audiophile
nor any discrimination as to what and how an audiophile chooses to enjoy listening to
music.
Obviously there are.... degrees.... of being an audiophile (see Duster's post) and humans
being what they are, those degrees seem endless.
To deny even participating in the game seems a lie, but sure has provided a long thread!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
I would bet that 99% of "audiophiles" who were haters of Bose 901s were Consumer Reports Lemmings and never heard them.
I was happy to move on to Acoustat 1+1s after about 5 years with 901s but what the Bose did well, large orchestral and opera, they did very well.
I consider myself a non-audiophile with an audiophile system, built by ear, not by Web discussion.
Eventually you make enough mistakes that you learn something and it looks like talent.
And there was a time I did consider the 301s but went for ADS L520. Never was a Bose hater but after that I started reading Audio and spending time in nice hifi shops, ragging on Bose seemed to be an easy way to earn some cheap audiophile credibility.
I was never a Bose hater either..... The brand never did much for me, but I can say that about 20 other brands of audio gear I've encountered over the years.......But I do find it interesting to see people's reactions about Bose, because it somehow evokes opinion on both extremes......
Maybe the most interesting argument over Bose I've witnessed was at the old Sound Center store in suburban Los Angeles.... Some potential customer brought up that he had Bose 901 speakers, and store owner Paul Carvel just went off on a tirade.....(Paraphrase) "If I slashed the woofers of these speakers, they would still beat the crap out of Bose 901s!!"..... The customer then said "You're nuts...", and promptly walked out of the store.
Edits: 05/14/21
I never knew whether Gary Eickmeier was a real person or just a Usenet troll.... But he's apparently a real person..... Has a Facebook page, complete with a picture of a large listening room with Bose 901 speakers......
...is deep, wide, and tall, with many listener interests involved, not just the goal of an accurate presentation based on signal purity. Beauty is an aesthetic quality that many audiophiles seek, and what makes a listener an "audiophile" simply means a keen interest in audio as a hobby and/or an occupation. If a listener is not interested in the latest developments in audio, and tends to only be concerned with enjoying whatever system they may have configured for their own wants/needs, that's perfectly fine, since a sincere passion for audio playback is really the only criteria for what makes any listener an audiophile by nature.
There are gearheads who have a disdain for boutique products and dislike the term "audiophile" since it has a derogatory meaning in their book, but in the real world they still fall under the term as a demographic. And it's also fine to not care about the many audiophile listening cues that many audiophiles tend to value so much and consider oneself to simply be a music lover. But don't ever think the notion of being an audiophile does not have to do with the beauty of music, and the beauty of sound itself. Audiophiles who think of themselves as being such tend to spend big money and time in order to achieve an aesthetically pleasing presentation that hits the spot, not just the notion of signal accuracy. "Truth is beauty" as the saying goes, but a little nudge here and there in the right direction in order to custom tune an audio system from an aesthetic POV is a very common audiophile attribute.
I want beauty and truth, and I feel my modest system with DIY horn speakers gives me a fair measure of both, but my ultimate, probably unobtainable, goal is a system that does magic, real supernatural magic in a pedestrian materialistic world. I want a system that will move me through time and space to a place and time when splendid musicians played their hearts out in the greatest performances of their lives. Other than that I am remarkably easy to please.
I dream of an America where a chicken can cross the road without having it's motives questioned.
.
So what?
In really good system 95% of music sound beautiful... And the better system the less of unlistenable material.
True that.
The better my system got the fewer 'bad' recordings I seemed to own.
A music lover uses his system to listen to music, an audiophile uses music to listen to their system.
Nt
It's all an illusion, never the truth. That's just how music reproduction
works whether you're an audiophool or not.
View YouTube Video
I've said it before, I'll say it again..... When it comes to sound reproduction, nobody knows what the "truth" really is......
I guess one can get gear with the flattest frequency response, most-linear dynamic response, and inaudibly low distortion levels, and believe it's close to the "truth"...... But is it really? None of us really knows.....
Some claim that the "truth" does not necessarily sound "beautiful"..... But again, are we really sure?
I think it's relatively easy to reference live music events..... But there is no "truth" to reference to.
NT
There is no "true" sound. All audio reproductions, however sophisticated, are mere shadows on the wall.
So why not just enjoy the sound that pleases you and inspires you. That makes you happy.
Rather than chase what is, in plain fact, unobtainable.
It's all an illusion so whether you like so-called neutral, warmth, crystalline transparency, freight train dynamics, or baby butt smooth.... just pick your color and enjoy it ;-)
Edits: 05/13/21
After that, I'll visit a "film forum" and imply it should be called the "movie forum."
film is the transport medium (and less and less any more), 'movie' a juvenilia. You wouldn't call a theatre production a "stagey" or "speaky".
The word for the artistic production is 'cinema'.
"cinema" is the venue, the film house.
Neutral is Audiophile's truth.
Bill
to paraphrase the great Clark Terry ...
Whether or not you can observe a thing depends upon the theory you use. It is the theory which decides what can be observed. - Albert Einstein
ugly recording sound beautiful how does it make a beautiful recording sound?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
audiophile
[ aw-dee-uh-fahyl ]
noun
a person who is especially interested in high-fidelity sound reproduction.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
do you think it's the fidelity concept that trips many up Tre'?
I do. then lack of experience followed by confirmation bias
I believe that live performance is the wellspring of experience
learning how to listen IS the experience and usually self taught
which, upon reflection, might only describe a music lover
quiet a bit more complicated in practice than the definition
then, we get into lowered expectations and ... I'd better stop now
regards,
yea, having played in an orchestra or military, jazz, rock band, or twisted knobs on a mixing console, or use to want to be a musician years ago, tried and quit. There are many reasons but maybe TIME to do any of it including sitting at home and listening or the lack thereof. Feeding and putting children to bed takes up the early evening hours.
And maybe they heard about all the $ it takes to have a 'good' system (forbid the use of good as someone here had a hemorrhoid when I used it) and quit that idea, especially when the bills have to be paid.
Most everybody likes music and simply does not have home exposure to the possibilities. There is something wrong with people who have a problem with it in general and there's probably a study somewhere that has found they have a mental disorder and maybe hit the evening news with something evil.
Too many problems, too little time.
if I'm not mistaken you've just described snobbery
quite handily actually
that's wasn't exactly where I was going with my thoughts
but it certainly compliments it in that no one should be above a sense of humility
if the goal is to reproduce live performance in the home there's more limitations than possibilities but they should never stand in the way of an enjoyable musical experience ... the emphasis being placed on musical and enjoyable
in modern live venue performances that's just as true live as in the casa`
nice post Story, thanks for filling in some blanks
with regards,
You are allowed both simultaneously. There's no contradiction. But there is a contradiction in your statement. Truth is ultimately beautiful. But, so far, there is no absolute truth in audio so you can pick your flavor of coloration and that's cool.
Edits: 05/12/21
Define your own purpose and move on from there. Nothing will bring forth an audio hell faster than quantifying your systems performance on the values of others.
I've been asked what I thought the definition of an "audiophile" is..... My answer: It's someone who hears music but wants to hear it better.......
It could be improving one's own system, it could be suggesting a better audio component to someone, and it could be looking for empty seats in a concert venue whose location would likely provide a better sonic presentation......
It could be seeking a better sounding pressing of a recording..... It could be noticing something peculiar in a given pressing being played......
Heck, it could be choosing the "best sounding" ringtone of several seemingly identical ones (I've actually done this on a few occasions) .......
Yes like someone said to me the other day (not sure of the topic) - It's a big tent.
This post shouldn't have deteriorated into which school of thought is correct, but of course it did. This isn't about right or wrong. You pay your dues. You enjoy your music. It's isn't anyone else's business. You don't need anyone else's validation. Do your thing - no regrets.
Nt
I think that you should argue about whatever it is you want to argue about while I listen to whatever I want and keep my ill considered opinions to myself. This place gets tedious sometimes and stupid.
I was just asking a question. You should learn to read.
Yes I should. I should also learn to stay away from this sort of silliness.
I could have sworn he was addressing me ...
sorry guys, my apologies to both of you, didn't mean to 'dip'
long day = short attention span
carry on
and response. When you're having a drink with friends, do you shush someone who comments on another person's statement?
And yes, I do consider manners important.
I didn't 'shush' anyone, I thought I spoke out of turn so I apologized!
<> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ <>
when you have to say, my system is good enough. I'm nearly at that point,
I think. At least I hope I am ...
Whether or not you can observe a thing depends upon the theory you use. It is the theory which decides what can be observed. - Albert Einstein
I think a simple dividing line is do you use your gear to listen to music, or do you use music to listen to your gear?
Nt
" I want beauty. Not truth."
Then you define yourself as an audiophile. Audio, meaning sound/hearing from Latin and 'phile meaning lover from Greek. There is nothing in the word that has any dependence upon accuracy or truth, only that you love what you hear.
"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams
nt
I enjoy what my audio gear does for music. I'm sure that applies to most of the lunatics who post here. Have fun in your derangement, I sure do.
Best regards, Ralph
nt
And I don't relate with the "shame" of being an audiophile.........
.
Gsquared
a
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
"Truth is beauty, and beauty truth. That is all ye need to know." Or something like that.
And there are different schools of "audiophiles." Some of us "truthers" figure that when the artist, producer, and engineers put a lot of effort into making a recording sound "good" by their lights, our gear should reproduce as closely as possibly the sound they intended. Others (the "beauty" school) prefer to wallow in euphonic distortions, and favor equipment that turns everything to artificially flavored and colored pastel mush. To each his own.
And there are different schools of "audiophiles." Some of us "truthers" figure that when the artist, producer, and engineers put a lot of effort into making a recording sound "good" by their lights, our gear should reproduce as closely as possibly the sound they intended. Others (the "beauty" school) prefer to wallow in euphonic distortions, and favor equipment that turns everything to artificially flavored and colored pastel mush. To each his own.I think there is a third "school"...... The "live" school...... To re-create the illusion of "live music," making the sound consistent with what's heard at live concerts.... As much as possible..... (One must constantly attend live concerts in order to train his/her ears what "live" actually sounds like. I call this the "live reference." And then evaluate gear and updates based on that "live reference.") Even though the end result rarely comes remotely close to this ideal. Hence this approach can often lead to major frustration if "upgrades" don't achieve the desired result. Not necessarily accurate, not necessarily "euphonic"....
I only state this because I think I fall into this third "school," which I don't believe matches either of the two stated "schools"....
Edits: 05/12/21
Maybe they don't have the flattest response or the most phase-coherent output, but they do "lifelike" transient response and dynamics better than anything else out there. Used to have a neighbor who had Klipsch Heresies, and while they had a treble edginess that ultimately became fatiguing to me, they could make me jump with surprise again and again. They got the initial attack of well-recorded percussion as close to the real thing as I've ever heard with reproduced sound.
Others (the "beauty" school) prefer to wallow in euphonic distortions, and favor equipment that turns everything to artificially flavored and colored pastel mush. To each his own.
I think you're painting the "beauty" school pretty derisively. It's not that extreme.
Consider a recent Herb Reichert column which starts out torching a straw man (the amp manufacturer who strives for "accuracy" over euphonia), then proceeds to crap all over the very concept of fidelity, and mock the idea that anyone should desire it. The column goes on to praise a highly colored and inaccurate tube amp. Whatever. Diff'rent strokes, etc.
nt
If music reproduction is grossly euphonic or colored, it can't, by Platonic definition, be a thing of beauty.
well Shamburg, you can have both if you take your time, ask questions here and there, and go for long time known to be excellent and beautiful components. That way you won't chase endless updates and improvements.
I've been living with Quad ESL 57's for many years and have no regrets, and contentedness like you wouldn't believe, including occasional tears on the beauteous thing.
Good luck on the search if you choose to.
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