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Just finished listening to Tears For Fears "Everybody Loves a Happy Ending" CD. The album is very good IMO. However this one song (Killing With Kindness) made me feel quite depressed. I analized why and it is the darkness of the melodies in this song which, although mysterious and aloof, has a sense of beauty, even though very dark (IMO)
Then I thought about how this might effect another personality type. I am an ENTP on MB and DC on the DiSC profiles. Thus my question about how certain melodic structures may effect different personalities. Or maybe I just have too much time on my hands. Anyone else consider such things? Anyone ever tested?
=========================
You paid HOW MUCH for that electrical receptacle?!!! Are YOU nuts?
Follow Ups:
"Anyone ever tested? "
Well, some Hispanics were playing their music in the parking lot of an auto parts store. Jack's brother in law, who answers the phone with a .45, took a baseball bat out there and busted in the dash of the car, thus silencing the stereo. Know what happened to him ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. (well he works there)
So I think he was tested. Do you think he passed or failed ?
People will tend to put down things they don't believe, don't understand, fear. Also, the anonymity of posting has people voicing opinions that may not be voiced face to face. Look at how many people make negative comments when a piece of stereo equipment is "overpriced" even if they haven't heard it, etc.
Meyers/Briggs is one aspect of personality typing, so I think you'd have to ask people that identify with that mode of interpretation. You could say the same for astrology: because I'm a that's why I do this....
Also, you may feel sad in reaction to a particular song today and it may be different tomorrow--or it may not.
For myself, I enjoy the personality typing of the enneagram. If you're interested, try Helen Palmer, the Enneagram. It can be brutally honest, but explains a lot. Me: INTJ Enneagram 9.
Oh no, I just labeled myself, now people will put me down. F**k them!
...but I need to be aware that music has considerable effects of "amplifying" mood.
If I am feeling aggressive and I am working out, heavy metal can make me too agitated. Sometimes I am in a neutral or mellow mood and I can't even listen to metal at all. I used to listen to the hard stuff while working out and now I find I like quiet at home where I can focus on my weights without getting too amped up.
If I am feeling down or suffering from a bout of depression, certain music makes it feel worse... music with dark or depressing themes.
If I am feeling amped up, I find some gentle blue-grass, classical or even trance music can certainly have a calming effect.
I think music indeed has effects on mood, and can amplify feelings and/or emotions that are already being experienced.
Cheers,
Presto
The Harley profiles at those get-togethers is a bit rough. Singularly, they may be dentists or stockbrokers, but en masse they ramp up with very changed personas. The music selections fit well -- high octane rock. Born to be Wild, Santana, anything by the Stones, and other choices that provoke edge behavior in groups. Ain't much Joni Mitchell heard at those shindigs.
tipping profiles according to USA Today. :)
idea that Google had a scholar search. Being part egghead (and airhead), this may come in handy
=========================
You paid HOW MUCH for that electrical receptacle?!!! Are YOU nuts?
If by study you mean you mean a controlled experiment, I suspect the answer is no, because the variables are not well defined. Personality types? Music types? Neither of these variables lend themselves to rigorous definition. And then there's the issue of mood of the listener who at one time might prefer cool jazz and at another a rip-roaring large orchestration. Contemplating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin may be a better use of your time.
I asked if it had been done. I asked on a whim because of my experience. I suspect it could be done. Most things worthwhile are challenging. And most things have their detractors as well as those who adopt the findings. At least you didn't get hung up on Myers Briggs.
Good post IMO.
=========================
You paid HOW MUCH for that electrical receptacle?!!! Are YOU nuts?
He has pointed out the same problems I have been pointing out.
No-one has yet come up with a reliable and consistent way of defining personality types.
Nor will anyone - ever - come up with a reliable and consistent way of defining different musics, in any useful way for such a study as you wish were possible.
Do try to get your head about the quite precise points about these issues that have been made to you, in this thread.
Or admit that you can't or won't.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
are not a good mix. Yer just one of many throughout history who have called something impossible only to be shown a fool when it is done. But even if it is, you will find some fault with it. That's your nature. Like you, I used to know it all. But I was a teenager. I grew up. You should consider that....if you can. Some never do.
Now go start your own thread about the shortcomings of MB. I may even join in agreement. But even if I agree, you will still be argumentative.
=========================
You paid HOW MUCH for that electrical receptacle?!!! Are YOU nuts?
The USMCorps has a number of colourful phrases, for people who can't cope with criticism or correction.One of them is a TS chit.
Tough Shit.
In Australia we call what has been done with you, being 'drummed', or given the drum. A dose of reality.
Wanting things you can't have - because they're infeasible, or not at all useful, seems to me to be a tad childish.
More so than wanting something that is feasible, like another lolly or ice-cream.
That others trained and expert in the field of psychology have, in this thread, confirmed my points in that area, should be enough to give you pause.
But no, you think I am being big headed. There are three fingers pointing back at you, mate!
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Edits: 07/22/17
Although my interest was binaural processing, I took a "personality" course from JP Guilford who opened the first class with a statement to drop the course if you think it will improve your personality. His approach was a factor analytic description of personality, and 60+ years ago he was already nearing 100 "pure" factors. I was more interested in the analysis than the factors.
db
Thanks, Tim.
1) Try their "Hurting" album for a great example of sonics and depressing music.
2) What would the science vs psychology views be if "personality" was replaced by "gender." Same answers?
Cheers!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
There are branches of psychology that lend themselves to scientific methodology with a well defined and controlled stimulus-response chain, psychophysics, for example, and we know a hell of a lot about rat learning, but much less about human behavior.
db
"Probabilities" may be the closest we'll ever get.
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
The Myers-Briggs has poor psychometric qualities in several respects. First, the idea that we have fixed "personality types," within the MB codetypes, isn't supported by data showing that people retain these codetypes on retest over long periods of time have gone by. In other words, the codetype has not been shown to have high test-retest reliability over long intervals.
Second, there is no real validity data showing that the codetypes accurately predict real-world behavior to a statistically significant extent.
There are some references in this wikipedia article to peer-reviewed research showing the lack of reliability and validity:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator
P.S. I'm a clinical psychologist
My employer offered the MBTI in the late '90s. I couldn't make any sense of the categories, which did not seem to me to be dichotomies for which I needed to show preferences, and I didn't. I am pleased to see the same thing in the criticisms in the Wikipedia article!
My answers were so close as to make any letter combination meaningless, with an answer or two different, the 4 letters would be entirely different. My personal conclusion, of course, was that this was because I am such a comprehensive and balanced person--that's mild joke, BTW. Waste of time, but at least it was a social break from work.
The young woman supposedly "trained" in MBTI had no clue how the categories were set up or how they were justified, nor could the personnel gals there, though they are quite smart people. She couldn't even understand the questions. She could just say the test was supposed to show preferences--which was precisely what I was questioning.
Everyone else--I mean everyone--seemed to think their results told them something about themselves. I suppose getting people to think about their attitudes might be revealing to them, but it seems to me astrology would be just as useful for that-or useless.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
are we all the same? I'm surprised that so many have got hung up on MB. The question was if/how discordant melodies might effect different personality types. How you define those types is an altogether different question. The same for how you define discordant melodic structures. As has been pointed out,different cultures have different factors in how they define beauty and discord in music . If you believe that all personalities are the same then I would invite you to my house where you will find my wife who is an introvert and I an extrovert. I suppose you consider the 2 different.
=========================
You paid HOW MUCH for that electrical receptacle?!!! Are YOU nuts?
which show that defining personality types is very, very difficult, pass right over your head.
Because, you, despite all that, want it to be possible?
LOL!
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
...is the standard for defining personality types.
At least a good place to start.
mkmuller wrote that the Myers-Briggs is "the standard for defining personality types." Whose standard? It's rarely used in research because it's psychometrically a poor instrument (see one of my earlier posts in this thread for a Wikipedia link that contains references to the scientific literature). Essentially, the "types" are neither temporally stable nor predictive of real-world behavior. For these reasons, it isn't used except in "pop psych" applications.
Actually, the most generally accepted theory of personality "types" is the Five Factor model, which also has methodological problems.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits
...throughout the corporate world, particularly in sales training.
It helps salespeople understand their personality type and how to relate to different types they are trying to sell to.
Also in understanding the other personality types internally you interface with.
and, becoming a senior NCO of infantry, I've run across personality testing a good deal.I've been give M-B tests, being told I would learn about me from it, and lost count after 10 instances.
It's not just because I was bothered by its assumptions from the outset.
E.g. "Do you prefer working with creative people or logical people?" WHATTTTT!!!??? was my reaction.Unless creative people means marketers, advertising folks and such, I am forced to go with the mid point of the scale.
Do you remember the wonderfully cruel and very funny episode in 'Hitchiker's Guide' about such folks, landed on a fertile planet like earth?
Why, Timbo? Because truly creative people solve or improve real complex problems, and need a good deal of logic and questioning to do so. Meeting sales targets doesn't fit at all, IMO.
IME & O MB's predictive ability is quite poor and it didn't help me in dealing with people.
I learn a great deal more from feedback given honestly, if it's by people with sufficient maturity to realise that I do, and will, think things through. Because I respect and value, them.
There are IME lots of people who achieve, and get things done, but I see no category of types most likely to do it.
The factors that matter most, say in getting things done, or changing an organisation's vision, are values-driven 'wanna' e.g. a commitment to making a difference.
Ambition and desire for success, are not vital IMO&E, can be recognised and disliked by colleagues and potential supporters. Selling ideas for change requires courage.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Edits: 07/22/17 07/22/17
mkuller says the MB is used "throughout the corporate world, particularly in sales training."
Again, the fact that it's used doesn't mean that it has any predictive validity. Show me research where sales people given INCORRECT MB types for themselves are rated as more persuasive than salespeople given CORRECT results of the MB indicator.
You might also consider "neurolinguistic programming," an approach to "matching" one's language and nonverbal behavior to a customer that was supposed to improve sales results--but no research ever showed it worked. It was widely used 25 years ago.
...I have no dog in this game so I'm not interested in an arguement.
"Reliability
What is reliability? Reliability is how consistently a test measures what it attempts to measure. Why is consistency important? Because when you measure something with an instrument two times, you want it to come out with the same answer (or close to it) both times. (This is called test-retest reliability, and it is an important measure of any kind of scientific testing.
Personality is qualitative and therefore difficult to measure, so psychological instruments cannot have the same consistency you would expect from, say, a ruler. But there are generally accepted standards for psychological instruments. The MBTI® instrument meets and exceeds the standards for psychological instruments in terms of its reliability.
Validity
Validity is the degree to which an instrument measures what it intends to measure, and the degree to which the "thing" that the instrument measures has meaning.
Why is this important? If personality type is real (or rather, if it reflects the real world with accuracy), then we should be able to use MBTI type to understand and predict people's behavior to some degree. Type should help us differentiate the values, attitudes, and behaviors of different people.
Many studies over the years have proven the validity of the MBTI instrument in three categories: (1) the validity of the four separate preference scales; (2) the validity of the four preference pairs as dichotomies; and (3) the validity of whole types or particular combinations of preferences. Many of these studies are discussed in the MBTI® Manual (published by CPP)."
Back in the day when MB was new, a number of us took the test and to a person, we were flat-out amazed at how "accurate" it appeared to be. Identified me as an INTP and yeah I couldn't argue with the descriptors. I found it fascinating.
"A broken clock is 100% accurate twice a day."
In other words, statistically, the MB "types" don't hold up as a predictor of current behavior when you look at group data, but they may be accurate for some people.
Another example, I'm quite certain that tossing a coin 1000 times will yield about 500 heads and 500 tails, but I will only be right 50% of the time about each individual toss.
Since this is an audio board, I won't post anymore about MB. But the same statistical issues apply when considering how accurately people can different 24/96 from DSD audio ;)
As to how accurately people can different (sic) 24/96 from DSD audio, well, I wouldn't trust what you have to say about that either.
Artemus wrote: "Then I thought about how this might effect another personality type. I am an ENTP on MB and DC on the DiSC profiles. Thus my question about how certain melodic structures may effect different personalities."
Once I posted some information about the uselessness of the MB types, Artemus then posted:
"Do you believe different people have different personalities? Or.are we all the same? I'm surprised that so many have got hung up on MB. The question was if/how discordant melodies might effect different personality types. How you define those types is an altogether different question. "
You asked if there was a study. What kind of study did were you thinking of? I assumed you were thinking of some kind of scientific study, meaning there was a use of the scientific method to answer the interesting question you asked. You were the one that brought up the MB--which could be one way to define the types whose responses to discordant melodies would be studied. I just said that per psychometric data, the MB was not a good way to define those types.
If there's going to be any sort of study of how different groups respond to something, you'll need a way to define those groups carefully, or the results will be "garbage in, garbage out."
Artemus, I have the impression that you got impatient with the attempt to bring a bit of science into what is potentially an interesting question.
I am not willing to get into an argument about whether psychology is a science--it's a complex question that involves defining what science is for starters.
Thank you for showing some understanding of my critique of the idea for such a 'study.'
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Whether psychology is or isn't a science is an unending and complex argument. Also, psychology isn't a unitary field. When I am working as a psychotherapist, there is a lot more art than science involved in how I work with each patient, but there is underlying science about what types of treatment and what kind of therapeutic relationship is likely to be effective. On the other hand, if I am conducting research, science is at the fore in the choice of research methodology and measurement strategies.
One of the most clearly "scientific" aspects of psychology is the use of statistics to identify the psychometric properties of psychological tests. Aside from the question of whether the Myers-Briggs polarities are taxonomic (I vs. E, P vs. J, etc.), the psychometric characteristics of the MB itself are poor. That is evident because research shows that the "types" aren't reliable (i.e., people's types are not temporally stable) or valid (they don't predict real world behavior).
You can argue about how well-designed these studies are, but you can't argue with the hard, cold numbers in their results--that's where the science of psychology is precise.
But that I do have a problem with muddled thinking.
Psychology, if it is a 'science' is a 'hard to do science.'
Whereas, physics, chemistry, engineering are precise sciences.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
I have never heard of a study, but my first thought was towards an instinctive response towards music by the catholic church, the devil's chord changes, forbidden , .because of the results they observed, I suppose.
Ozzy Osborn makes a good living with those same chord changes .
I can't explain any of it.
.
Good luck!
Psychology is not a science.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
I doubt that many, if any, would argue that there are different personalities among humans. The question I posed is whether certain melodic structures might have different effects on different personalities?
=========================
You paid HOW MUCH for that electrical receptacle?!!! Are YOU nuts?
Because psychology is unable to do that for us. The Myers-Briggs profiles are derived by arbitrary and questionable terms and traits, often shown as opposed when they are very often not opposed in real people.Having been a leader of emergency service (fire) folks, and a manager and change agent in health informatics I am deeply skeptical about them and the 'scientific' cloak psychology either claims or is allowed to wear by folks.
Last, but not least, it will not be possible to usefully define the types of music in ways that the population being sampled would all agree on.
So, the data from such a study would not contain much information.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Edits: 07/14/17
So if it can sooth, it most likely can grate too.
by everyone else? Not very likely is it? and see * below.About as useful as the Meyers-Briggs family of tests and types.
I'm not prone to scientism, although I am a management scientist with enough cred to have been invited to the USA to working group meetings and having a Duke alumni badge given me by a Duke Professor.
Click below to follow a thread about all of this, which will point you to a section on Wikipedia about criticism.
IMO the entire thread & the linked articles are worth a read.
Especially the WEIRD bit in the criticism of psychology at Wikipedia. Western, Educated, Intellectual and etc, which is a good bit wider than LBGTIQ and their 'progressive' acolytes.
* Just by the way 'all classifications are arbitrary,' and if you think that's wrong, please explain how fizzy logic works. Because it's the basis for fuzzy, on which we now all rely.
:-)!
PS I do hope you can get your head around all this.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Edits: 07/13/17 07/13/17 07/13/17
That is an interesting question - what series of notes move one person and do zilch for someone else.
Not only personality types but cultural backgrounds. I live in Hong Kong and Cantonese speakers/listeners are born into a 9 tine language that requires a person to listen very closely to be able to understand exact pronunciation and intonation. If the word MA is spoken differently it will mean something completely different.
In English - often the meaning is the same no matter how the word is spoken (though you might miss sarcasm or something. But this is quite different.
So you have your first language, your personality, your cultural belief system, religion, political opinions (as to what you take from the meaning of the songs) predisposition to liking or disliking them based on that.
Then I wonder about the very shape of your ears. They're not all the same.
I can't answer your question - just adding more variables to it.
My favorite singer lately is Aurora Aksnes if we talk about pushing my emotion buttons. I hope you get some interesting answers as to understanding and predicting what we will like based on personality and all perhaps all the other factors. I believe that a person's spoken language can be influential here - Some languages are guttural with a lot of sibilant S. So music systems that play that and perhaps shout that will be preferable than to perhaps someone from France or England. This may also influence a composer or musician to interpret a given piece of music differently.
After watching the video, I ordered All My Demons Greeting Me As A Friend on CD. Wow, the sound quality on my main system is really bad I could not listen to it after 3 songs. I tried listening on Amazon music through my desktop setup, just as bad. Harsh sounding and shrill, ouch!
I picked it up and will bring it the California Audio Show and see how it sounds.The album sounded fine via youtube into my KEF LS-50s
Edits: 07/19/17
This might explain why I could not enjoy the sound of the CD on my system. It sounds okay through my Koss Porta Pros....
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/105771
I used the CD in a number of rooms and had no issues with brightness. Pretty good for pop i felt actually and very good on the AN players being used at the show. Rooms with Redbook CD players consistently sounded better than rooms using computer based playback.
Nice overview -RGA.
Danish is somewhat of a tonal language, with vowels that are very close together in sound (to the English ear) and hard consonants (in English) that are hardly sounded in the middle and end of a word in Danish. However, it has a somewhat simple grammatical structure, not very dissimilar to English.
Nevertheless, the written word is unintelligible, unless you know how to sound the vocabulary with your own mouth.
The Norwegian singer you like has a sweet voice.
she's sweet and keeps her clothes on and she actually has singing talent. She grows on me the more and more I listen.
Then again I may be having a midlife crisis. LOL :)
I think there should be a companion study on personality types and the types of equipment bought, money spent and where, and their propensity to spend cash on audio tweaks.
Proudly serving content-free posts since 1984.
:-)!
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Seems I'm an INTJ.
which is, after all, my point.
And pbarach's too.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
which is, after all, my point.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
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