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My system:
Thiel 2.4 Louspeakers
Ayre V-5xe 2 CH Stereo amp
Ayre K-5xeMP preamp
Ayre C-5xeMP disc player
Berkeley Audio DAC-2
SOTA Saphhire TT with Jelco 750E arm, Grado Sonata 1 cart
Plinius Jarrah Preamp
What I have noticed is that the system really sounds its best at louder volumes (>90dB) - it doesn't sound bad at more moderate volumes, but things don't really open up until it is above 85-90dB or so - which is nice, but I am wondering if I could replace things in it so that I could listen at much more moderate volumes with similalr levels of satisfaction.
There is no particular pattern to my listening - Jazz, Blues, Rock, Alternative, Bluegrass, Celtic, Classical ...
Any suggestions?
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
Follow Ups:
That's too loud I never could go for a system like that any system should play decent irrespective of volume, my $2000 dollar system does it.And you have great stuff.
Have you checked your "balanced/un-balanced" switch? It might have been flipped accidentally.
hth
That was it!
It's much better now.
:)
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
I think your improvement when switching to "balanced" has to do with the fact that in most cases "balanced" connections via balanced gear "play louder" than single ended.Regarding your issue of wanting to play it softer yet still hear all the MUSIC (detail/dynamics/bass) try nearfield listening of 4-6 ft from the speakers (may require toe-in adjustment)
If that doesn't do it, I know some speakers that are the best (I have heard) for lower level listening.
Edits: 08/24/12
Actually - the noise floor dropped - I had to lower to volume a little bit.
Remember I had a balanced signal going into the Balanced input.
I am all crazy with a SPL meter right now - so I am trying to find the right level for not disturbing the neighbors!
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
Brain fart.
IN the move form one room to another - my "balanced/unbalanced" switch had been flipped to the "unbalanced" side. I was running balanced line and the switch was "unabalnced"
I saw this and flipped it to "balanced: and suddenly the sound was great and more full from very low volume to high.
LOL
Don't I feel like a dork!?
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
Your perception of low and high freq is different at different volume levels.
I agree with those who suggest loudness compensation. When you play a recording back at a level that's lower than the level of an actual performance, the subjective frequency balance changes. You have to apply the equal loudness contour curves to restore subjective frequency balance.
Wow! I go away for a couple of days and a lot of replies!Thanks! It continues to be a bit of a dilemma. I do agree there may be some psycho-acoustic effects - but also am wondering if some dynamic range may be reduced (even in the midrange!) in the preamp, amp or speakers?
Anyway - as I am looking over my plans for the next 6 months and don't see any audio purchases other than music purchases, I am going to be exploring some possible alternatives.
Some of the ideas I gleaned from everyone:
1. Speakers (more efficient may allow better dynamic range at lower volume)
2. Find a "loudness" function (or use one if available)
3. A friend of mine suggested a Passive preamp (transformer type) as something that could let the dynamic range shine throughand for me
"Define Loud!" :)
Thanks everyone!
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
Edits: 08/22/12
The problem with vented speakers is that they have a zero at DC which shakes out into unsatisfying bass at low levels.
Get some with "acoustic suspension" style woofers and they will actually sound better at low levels in the bass. Just the nature of the brutes. On the other hand they aren't as efficient but for near-field domestic use they are the best choice in my opinion.
Rick
Preferrably not vintage, but currently produced.
NHT comes to mind and there may be others but I haven't followed speakers for many a year.
All of mine are acoustic suspension including ones from Infinity, AR, and Celestion. But calling them vintage is being polite, they are vintage with a vengeance... But IMHO sound great at all levels in the bass. And elsewhere also except for the ARs which have tweeter breakup problems.
Regards, Rick
.
That's exactly what my Paradigm Studio 100s did. One of the first things we noticed about our Avalon Eidolons is how much more enjoyable they are at low volume.
That's a real nice system. I can't imagine your Thiel's are at fault as in my experience. Are you making this assessment during a time of day when there's a great deal of outside the house background noise?
An off the wall suggestion would be to see if you could audition a small subwoofer.
There's actually more than one phenomena going on here.As several folks have noted, we perceive the relative "balance" of low, mid and high frequencies differently at different loudness levels, because of how our hearing mechanism works. We're more sensitive to "mid-frequencies" than to lows and highs. And so, the "tonal character" of a sound varies with the loudness of the sound. However, that's only one part of how a sound system sounds to us.
Another critical part is the overall tonal balance of the speaker, as well as the speaker's narrow band output variations, and its time domain performance. As critical listeners know, when you listen at a low level, some notes may stand out, while others seem subdued. The audibility of this varies from one musical instrument to another, because of their fundamental frequency range and associated harmonics. Obviously, this also varies based on the actual sound on the recording (EQ, mics, etc.). These variations from "exact real reproduction" become more pronounced at low-ish levels. Like we say in the music world, "anyone can play loud, it's much harder to play soft".
Third, the amplifier may exhibit relatively better or worse performance at various output levels. While this can be a factor in tube amps, it's definitely a factor in solid state amps particularly at low output levels and/or high output levels - many of them sound best in their middle range. I'm not familiar AT ALL with tube performance characteristics, except that they often sound excellent at low levels, and tend towards saturating at high levels.
Finally, some speaker and amp combinations are a better electrical match than others. After all, the speaker is a part of the amp's circuitry, just like any other part of the amp.
I know this hasn't "answered" your question, nor does it cover ALL the contributing factors (including room acoustics), but maybe it'll help you to have a better insight into what might be going on with your particular system.
hth
Edits: 08/21/12
As my systems have improved in quality over the years I find I can listen at lower levels with great satisfaction. I have improved the quality greatly by:
1. Vastly reducing clipping. I have a tons of clean amp power and clipping is no longer a factor. Some have noticed that going to more efficient speakers seems to help. Reduction or elimination of clipping is the reason for this improvement. Clipping sounds bad. Eliminate it.
2. Work to minimize electronic noise by deploying a good power conditioner and good quality power cords. Having truly silent background from electronic noise reduction leaves only the music.
3. Work to find neutral sounding components. Amps and cables that add any coloration to the sound interfere. My goal for cables is that the sound should be like not having cables.
4. Lower ambient noise in your listening area. This is harder to do than some other objectives. Check the ambient background sound levels of your room with a meter. Work to lower it.
The closer one can come to eliminating everything except the music the closer you can come to listening at lower levels. Lower cost setups that have not tackled any of the above require volume levels to rise above the rage of other unncessary noise.
Like Liz noted above, I listen between mid 50s and mid 70s DB levels. With pretty good attention to noise reduction this is plenty satisfying.
I'm all with what you said except number one. His amp does 150/ch @8 and 300/ch @4 ohms and the Thiels are a 4 ohm load nominally. Since his complaint is low to mid volume I'd say he is safe with avoiding clipping AND having plenty of headroom at the volume level at which he wants "improvement".
I'm with you on all the others but his issue is not clipping or headroom in his amplifier. I use lots of power too and believe in headroom!
ET
I agree the OP's issues may not include clipping. I was just assembling a crude checklist of bad noises to attempt to eliminate. Not everyone has every problem. Most can, including myself, still reduce noise levels a little more. Its that quest for perfection nobody really achieves. I love the chase though in kind of a sick way. The downside of this hobby I guess.
Thanks and like I said the other things you said were right on the money for me.
ET
.
allowed me to experience this. Swapping out 87db for 98db speakers, leaving everything else in my system as is.
which speakers did you buy?
I have realized an increase in low volume listening pleasure. And every time I have moved to a more efficient speaker I have moved to simpler circuits in the gear.
You don't get rid of the crap with "tons of clean amp power". That's just more crap. Point to to point wiring is less crap.
Although they were very nice at low volume, still preferred my Eggleston Works Fontaines at normal and higher volumes. So returned them.
i heard some Zu's at the CAS recently, wasn't too impressed with the resolution
I have often wondered about the relationship between the sensitivity of the speakers and the ability to reproduce the music clearly at low volume. I find my Fostex Horn speaker to be very good at very low volume, better than my Bostons and B&Ws. Is at least 90 db sensitivity required for satisfactory low volume listening?
Cheers
Bill
McIntosh built its reputation on the audible purity of sound reproduction. I did not know much about the compensation switch except that it made the music sound better and I left it on for over twenty years. It converts the volume control to a loudness compensated control switch. The effect is to give a flat frequency response across changing volume levels by keeping the low and high frequencies volumes up as the main mid-section volume is reduced. The effect increases as the volume is lowered so that we still hear the full-frequency range at lower volume levels and flat response is obtained at full volume.
McIntosh:> The compensation switch automatically provides the correct amount of bass required to compensate for the change in response of the human ear at low loudness levels. When the volume is reduced, the music will seem to lose much of its bass and some of its treble. This effect is due to the sensitivity characteristic of human hearing. The response of the human ear to bass and treble pitch decreases more rapidly than its response to pitch centered in the mid-tonal range.
~~~
Hide it~ nothing looks better in Audio gear, than invisible....
NT
and my Vandersteen 2Ce Sigs sound fine
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
I listened mostly in the mid-80s too.
The best years....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I meant in the mid 8- db range. I'm guessin' you knew that tho
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
That is why we use McIntosh pre-amps. The comp button is flat straight up, but as the volume drops it changes the loudness curve to the way that we hear. It brings down the mids but pushes up the bass and probably the high end. So that it has the same balance at all volumes.See:http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=amp&m=175617
~~~
Hide it~ nothing looks better in Audio gear, than invisible....
Edits: 08/20/12 08/20/12 08/20/12 08/20/12
It worked for me.
"Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
-Dr. Greg House
Seriously, when we listen at loud volumes and then just 'turn it down' it sucks.
Period.
Not because it really sucks, it is just our ears are not acclimated to listening regularly at lower sound levels.
Folks all say magnepans need to be played loud to really open up.
Not!
i listen at 55dB (C weighted via RadioShack meter) up to only 75dB and 75dB is LOUD to me.
Because i listen at these levels i am acclimated to them. And find all the power there.
Loud is just loud, and as I wrote, your ears pay, and do not respond to lower levels very well.
Like i went to the dealer to audition the 3.6 for many hours.
When I started i actually brought my radioShack meter. The fella set them at like 90 dB and i was no way dude.
So i lowered the level a lot and listened. after a few hours the dealer mentioned they sound pretty good, but no one seem to listen at lower levels anymore, so he just cranks them up out of habit.
And finally my favorite thing. try a Pangea powercord. The Pangea AC9SE on your amp.. it may help listening at lower levels anyway.
I like to listen at close to live levels (80 to 105 dbs). Background music is a bore.
Elizabeth (A) the standard reference volume that the music was mixed to is greater than that. Anything less distorts the balance between the lows and highs, unless your pre-amp compensates for it. The sensitivity of the human ear changes as a function of frequency.McIntosh:> The compensation switch automatically provides the correct amount of bass required to compensate for the change in response of the human ear at low loudness levels. When the volume is reduced, the music will seem to lose much of its bass and some of its treble. This effect is due to the sensitivity characteristic of human hearing. The response of the human ear to bass and treble pitch decreases more rapidly than its response to pitch centered in the mid-tonal range.
~~~
Hide it~ nothing looks better in Audio gear, than invisible....
Edits: 08/20/12
So I say the system works. Because YES our hearing IS diferent at lower volumes. So naturally our expectations should be for what is NATURAL.
Problem is, our twisted expectations are NOT. The op wants the SAME experience at lower volumes./ i say get used to reality, and what we naturally hear at lower volumes and it can be very rewarding. You say NO, because YOU want the same balance at lower levels as heard at higher. so say I am wrong. I am not 'wrong' I am saying do what the ear actually hears, and acclimate yourself to what nature gave you. instead of expecting the frequency spectrum to accomdate your aural forced training.For you, perhaps you are saying ONLY the exact dB of the original performance is 'correct"? and any variation is wrong.
Or can we change the volume, and accept that out natural hearing is also different at those levels. without demanding we get the same 'required' audiophile balance (via machines monitoring us?) or should we accept hearing has variations in the way it naturally hears at different levels of loudness. And instead of making the sound meet our twisted wants, just accept our hearing and it's limitations as it naturally is?One reason to eliminate tone controls was to get rid of errors. Well is not wanting more bass and treble when we naturally hear less of it at lower levels a 'distortion' in the name of audiphilia?
Hope this rambling makes a little sense
Added: like the person with hearing loss. Some ask should they modify their system so they could hear it as if they had perfect hearing? Well they certainly can, but then everyone agrees the system is not reporting accuratly what is on the recorded medium.
Should we, when sitting in the atrium, demand the conductor adjust the music so it sounds like we are seated fifth row center?
What we hear in nature is just what it is. If we are going to change it to meet some arbitrary standard, well yeah we can do that. but is that an audiophile? or a putz answer?
And the argument that the level of the original performance is THE tandard? yes. that it is. but no many can play at the original loudness of a Stadium Rock concert, or a full orchestra.
So is turning it down like a miniature. we are stiil listening as if at full volume. squeezing it sort of?
Or as if we are farther away when at a lower volume than the original?
has that question ever been answered?
If magically squeezed, then I am wrong. But i stil l say then it is totaly unnatural to real sound and is just as much an artificial construct as adjusting it any way you want to please your personal peccadillioes.
If it is like farther away, then i am correct, and our natural hearing does just what is does naturally, at lower volumes. And to 'get used to it' is the corrent response.
I am satisfied i made my case here.
Edits: 08/20/12
Level does matter. A recording is usually balanced properly when listening at the level it was mastered at, at least assuming a good recording engineer.
"A recording is usually balanced properly when listening at the level it was mastered at, at least assuming a good recording engineer."
Loud portions of recordings are generally mastered by listening at 85 dB. The reason for this has to do with the ability of ears to hear details better at louder volumes, up to the point where the ears begin to distort. Also, beyond this volume level loud sound quickly begins to damage one's hearing. (Even 85 dB will damage one's hearing if the music is continuously at this volume level for hours a day, as happens when playing loud pop music which comes compressed.) Recording engineers may find themselves unemployable if they lose their hearing.
If you attend performances of live acoustic music, 85 dB roughly corresponds to what you will hear at the best seats in the house, but at the conductor's podium the levels might be louder. Peak SPL at an audience seat has been measured at 105 dB during Mahler's 8th symphony, this is about as loud as you will ever hear when it comes to acoustic music. If you do not listen to recorded music at volume levels similar to those used during record production you will not hear an accurate representation of the recording and your reproduction of recorded sound can not possibly sound like "the real thing". With most recordings you will miss out on some lower level details, even if you have a very quiet room and excellent hearing. Whether this matters when it comes to musical enjoyment is a completely separate question.
IME it makes sense to adjust low frequency response to compensate for the characteristics of one's room and speakers. It does not make sense to constantly change this response when one plays back at lower volume levels, as I do when my neighbors are present. The music is going to sound different, so one may as well just get used to it, as Elizabeth suggests.
If you have a system with inadequate bass response one symptom of this is a need to play at ever louder volume levels in an attempt to achieve a frequency balance. If you find yourself doing this, then one cure is to fix your system, which may mean changing the equipment, moving the speakers and/or listening position, or employing some bass boost, provided it is done in moderation. Use of a calibrated microphone and measurement equipment is a good $200 investment, if one plans to go this route. If you have a system with excessive energy in the 2 kHz to 8 kHz range relative to the lower frequencies, it will sound harsh, particularly when played loudly. For various reasons, many recordings will sound harsh if your system's frequency response is flat in this range. The tonal balance was adjusted by equalization (or just selected by microphone choice and microphone positioning) so as to sound good on speakers with a slight high frequency roll-off. If you constantly feel the need to turn the volume down, perhaps this is because your system is too bright, relative to the recordings you are playing. If you have a system that has excessive response in the 2 kHz to 8 kHz range and inadequate low bass response it may sound poor regardless of what volume setting is used. One turns it up for more visceral impact, only to start getting a headache from the harshness. If one finds oneself in this sad situation, it would be best to modify one's system.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
.
> So I say the system works. Because YES our hearing IS different at lower volumes. <
The sound is different, your hearing works the same. If they mixed it to the volume that you feel comfortable with. Then you would hear it like it was intended by the artist. But if they use Industry standard loud. Then your amp should adjust it to your volume, like high-end equipment has been doing for over fifty years. Nothing new here. We do not have to reinvent the wheel.
> So naturally our expectations should be for what is NATURAL. <
Your expectations, or how the Artist wanted you to hear it?
> The op wants the SAME experience at lower volumes. <
The op will get the same experience at any volume with the proper equipment ie: Loudness compensator control.
> For you, perhaps you are saying ONLY the exact dB of the original performance is ‘correct”? <
No I am saying that is what the artist mixed it to. What the Artist wants you to hear, probably before you change it to something else.
> and any variation is wrong. <
How do you know what is right if you have not hear it the way it was presented to you by the creator?
I liked to listen to familiar music slowed down to 16 rpm before CD’s took that option away.
> Or can we change the volume, <
You should be able to afford to change the volume, without screwing up your music.
> and accept that out natural hearing is also different at those levels. <
You’re hearing is the same, the music changed. Your music was desinged for survival not to hear music on cheaply made music reproductive systems.
> hearing has variations in the way it naturally hears at different levels of loudness. <
This is true, Our hearing does not have limitations. The cheap equipment that you are listing to it on has the limitations, that can easily be overcome. Just spend some time with a Vintage amp with an acceptable loudness curve and your own music, and you will never except this rot on the market today.
> One reason to eliminate tone controls was to get rid of errors. <
No it was just to make it cheaper. They did it to make money.
> Well is not wanting more bass and treble when we naturally hear less of it at lower levels a ‘distortion’ in the name of audiphilia? <
Depends how you do it. The idea is to have it sound the same at any volume. You can change it at any volume also. Your choice. But it will sound the same at all loudness.
> Hope this rambling makes a little sense. <
Yers Elizabeth it makes little sense.
~~~
Hide it~ nothing looks better in Audio gear, than invisible....
I don't believe a power cord helps listening at lower levels.
Yeah who cares.
Not my problem if you are sure a powercord cannot make a difference.
If you can agree they can make a differnce, then all we need is the right cord and BOOM we are in business.
If you are in the cords cannot make a difference, then just no helping it.
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
.
I never said cords don't make a difference. You made a comment that cords made a difference listening at lower levels. I said I didn't think that was true.
Liz, you look at companies like Peachtree Audio. They make a fine integrated Dac, tube pre-amp, and amplifier. To save money, they expect the audio player to have the balance and loudness controls. But when you are streaming in Youtube, Netflix, or Hulu, or Pandora, or Mog without an audio player, you might be able to control the balance with the computer, but the system wide volume control does not have a loudness control.
The most efficient way for the op to have unmolested sound under control, is to zero in on a Vintage high-end pre-amp with analog loudness compensation, that has come down to an affordable price. If it cannot be restored, the company is no longer around, don’t buy it! Have it tuned back to original specs, and put it in the audio stream. It will work trouble free for another twenty years, and the music will be just fine.
~~~
Hide it~ nothing looks better in Audio gear, than invisible....
I have the same problem with my system. It sounds best at higher volumes. I have heard some people say that Harbeth speakers sound good at low volume. Maybe you can audition a pair and see what you think.
Its not the speakers. The sound actually changes when you lower the volume. Equal-loudness contours are often referred to as "Fletcher-Munson"' curves, after the earliest researchers, but those studies have been superseded and incorporated into newer standards.
~~~
Hide it~ nothing looks better in Audio gear, than invisible....
Dare I suggest that a system might benefit from active EQ (for room, source and --yes it happens -- speaker) deficiency? I have never owned a McIntosh anything, but the idea of a loudness contour button is great, but at best it is a designer's assumption of the average. Changing the sensitivity of your speakers is kind of like saying "substitute a lower power amplifier for quieter music", isn't it?
The goal of high fidelity is to impress your friends, no wait, it's enjoy music that is pleasing to you, the listener. By definition that is a completely subjective judgment. You can adjust your system to best suit you. I am currently a fan of 1/3 octave pink noise bands, equalized to be the same subjective loudness at my "normal" listening level. Other people aim for flat 20 Hz-20 KHz at the listening position. Whatever. My subjective method is -- well, subjective! The problem with that method is that it requires a graphic EQ which is anathema to many audiophiles. ("Behringer DEQ2496" is doubly so, but you can probably buy a pedigreed unit if you want.)
> Changing the sensitivity of your speakers is kind of like saying, “substitute a lower power amplifier for quieter music”, isn’t it? <
No that is not it. A lower power amplifier will just clip. Loudness is adjusting the final mix to be flat at the volume you happen too be using at the moment. If they mix the music so that it is how they want you to hear it at say a reference 87 db level. Then what we want, is the ability to hear that mix at any volume from say 10db to 100db. Which is what a loudness compensator attempts to do. Keep the original mix at all levels within human hearing.
It does not have to be active because EQ, because in general, ears and human sensitivity to frequency change, don't change. You just figure it out and program it in. Of course this was all done fifty years ago. The new manufactures probably expect someone else in the chain of sound on your personal system to take care of it, but without the expertise nobody does. That is what the op has noticed.
~~~
Hide it~ nothing looks better in Audio gear, than invisible....
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