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I enjoy reading about good service experiences and I have had good results myself from more than one company. I have seen the industry make the switch from brick and mortar to internet. Given the power of the internet today, can any company afford to allow the bad press of poor service to leak out? It also seems that service may carry as much importance today as the product's capabilities as a metric for staying in business. I am not aware of any internet only companies who have screwed this up, but I have only dealt with a few and the service was immediate and above expectations.
For me good service extends across email questions, phone calls, prompt and effective packaging and delivery, return policies, and in-home trials. Extra credit is given if shipping costs both ways are covered for trials. What are your expectations for service?
Follow Ups:
Yes. Good service is exceedingly important to me. I have arrived at a new perspective, however. Previously, I would only consider a B&M store if they could provide competent technical/repair service on site. Now, I'm aware this is increasingly uncommon...sigh.
Vbr,
Sam
What bugs me is when the market has changed and the seller hangs on to high prices as there market walks away.
~~~
The driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit...
Unfortunately yes.
As a manufacturer of equipment in a totally different industry, customers have gotten totally unreasonable in the kinds of things they expect from vendors.
My favorite are the customers who order equipment at list price, get a new system, and then threaten to send it back unless they get a 20% discount because the system is now used (by them). This has happened to me twice in the past month.
Or the jerk who wants us to rewrite our entire software system for free because he only uses MAC hardware (the quote specifically stated that the software only runs on WINDOWS based systems).
How about the customer in Cairo who insisted on having the system delivered personally because he was afraid that it would never make it through customs? Cairo was lovely last week (yes, I did go and deliver it).
My new favorite customer schtick are the people who just want to lease stuff for a month just to have the equipment long enough to do their experiment. Try asking your local audio dealer for that- maybe the average audiophile gets sick of his system in 30 days anyway.
Sorry for the rant. Still getting caught up from a few days in Egypt.
Why is it unfortunate? Whose fault is it that you deal with sleazy customers?
When I make any kind of purchase, whether it's an automobile, a full suite of hi-end kitchen appliances, or audio gear for example, I fully research the vendor to see if they have a track record of good to excellent customer service before I'll even consider doing business with them. I've learned this lesson in the past. There are some vendors that have made my "never again" list and many who I have no problem patronizing again. And I'm not shy about sharing my experiences with those who ask. I'm okay with spending a little more for the piece of mind, and often have been very glad that I did.
The "unfortunate" part has to do with what some customers seem to define "good service" to mean. I enjoy working with the vast majority of our customers. There is a small segment that are making outrageous demands that drive up costs that we must pass on to others.
This same thing is happening in consumer markets every day and in so many other markets. People want good service but are unwilling to pay for it. Perhaps it is the natural evolution of business that stores like Best Buy helped bury the smaller local stores....and now they will face annihilation too as more people start buying stuff online or accessing content through the cloud.
My brother who works for a plumbing wholesaler once put it well, as it was explained to him. Far too many businesses operate as an upside down pyramid. The bulk of the money goes up top, while the works/grunts are viewed as 2nd class or worse within the company. Their pay is the bare minimum they can pay. Incentives are far and few between. Wont even bother bringing up benefits, although that is why no one wants full time employees anymore.
BB is gonna disappear because they offer nothing more than Amazon, Frys, Newegg does. Overall their employees are unhelpful, lack much knowledge, have nearly no incentive to perform, and are often teens. This is not to say a good workers dont exist there. But often they find better jobs, graduate schools, are picked, so on. At a BB only the depo manager earns commission, not the guy working with you. So you have disappointing whip crackers demanding the min wage workers who get next to no real valuable training, to be all they can be for you. As scary as this may sound, a proficient sales/service working at the likes of a BB IMO should be a skilled worker so to speak. Again, if BB cannot bring anything to the table that an online site, which sells for less can, what place do they make for themselves?
All that being said. The ma and pa shops of today really have a chance to shine if they play their cards right. That and have a community around them that have the money and know they exist. I totally acknowledge this is quite the set of circumstances. But it can happen in this climate.
Again my 2c
Dave
Not trying to pick a fight here but I think the comment of one being at fault for dealing with sleazy customers was a rather poor rationalization.
Especially considering the poor economic climate we're in, doing business is a hard game for nearly everyone. I know for myself, Im just happy to be working now. Im sure as heck not making what Id like to be, but in the same breath I cant complain too much. Half the people I speak to at work seem to be either in school or looking for work. Some by their own doing I will admit. But these are really hard times for many.
I assume the poster you replied to is in his own niche market. You dont get to hand pick those who want your product and are willing (and capable) of paying. Imagine if said poster told someone he felt was being difficult to go fly. They might talk with others in his area and tell them to stay clear. This is simply one of countless scenarios in which one might dig their own hole being too proud to work with others.
I see your off in Colorado. My best bud who lives just outside of Boulder tells me of life near himself. In his own words, in Boulder it is like a world onto itself. Economic down turn seems nearly non existent to him. Allot of upscale, well to do, well off folks going about their business. He is an air craft mechanic for a private company and is doing ok. He did 4 years in the military and 4 in college. He is a bright and reasonable guy. Very much self made and a believer in pulling one self up by their bootstraps so to say. But even he says out there its like a bubble compared to back home here in WI.
I dont want to imply too much here, but the idea that people have the luxury of doing business with whomever they wish whenever they wish is sadly not the case. Man I wish it where. If one is too proud to bend a little to make folks happy. They may find themselves with allot of free time nowadays.
All this being said there are limits to everything in life.
Again, just though that remark was a bit sweeping there... All the best to you though
Dave
Perhaps I'm being presumptious, but you sound like you might be relatively young.
Had the poster not started off his reply with the word "unfortunately" I would have been a bit more lenient in my answer to his post. He gave me the impression that he felt that it was unfortunate that he had to provide a certain level of customer service. With that attitude he needs to either get out of the line of business that he's in, or better yet cater to a better class of customers.
However, I will try to address your responses on a point by point basis -
Sure, these are hard times for most people, but the context of this thread is focused on the necessity to provide good service to your customers, especially in these times. If people are unemployed or under employed how does that fact relate to the OT?
Does one really have to "pimp himself out" and work for or with sleazy individuals in order to justify making a living? Not everybody has to stoop to that level. Get out while you can. Life's too short. Move to an area with a better job climate. Start your own business that fills a need that others aren't filling. One can try to be industrious, creative, innovative and free onesself from that kind of degradation if he's brave and really tries.
I used to live in the Peoples Republic of Boulder, had a business there, but that was over thirty years ago. Yes, Boulder is a place not like most others, but I've been living 250 miles west of Boulder across the continental divide on the western slope of the Rockies since the mid-1970's and believe me with an unemployment rate that's one of the highest in the nation life here is no cakewalk, especially for those who are not suited for it.
I never said that one doesn't have to "bend a little" (or a lot) in order to "make folks happy" or as I'd put it - retain the customers that are worth retaining. But what I heard from the OP goes quite a bit farther than bending a little. It sounds like some of his customers are asking him to do things that go against his principles or standards. So he either stops whining about it and swallows his pride or he mans up and just says no. I'm happily retired now, but when I was in business (not too long ago) I politely refused to deal with anyone who engaged in behavior that I considered suspicious or sleazy. (I never got rich, but I'd call myself independant and comfortable). After over forty years of dealing with the public a good businessman tends to develop a sixth sense about those things. In any case, I always provided a high level of customer service but I did not, and would not, sacrifice my principles, morals, pride, or sense of self worth for a dollar. I haven't had to. Maybe I'm just lucky.
Im assuming you and I have more in common than we dont. That is, in our view of business.
Yep, Im young. By some folks standards that is, 31. Being in computer technology, I personally feel rather old. As a teen in the 90s, what I knew as far as technology, now feels like a lifetime ago.
I feel I now better understand your reply to the poster. However I will stand by, I feel you overly painted it black and white. When in reality, you even view the scenario a bit broader.
Let me make my case a bit better. Hypothetical, but close to what Im guessing some deal with. Say the fellow sold a hardware/software package to the fellow he flew overseas to to deliver in person. It sold for $40K with $25K profit. Maybe you sell 4-6 of em a year. Thats his income. Is sacrificing time, a few $K and some headaches once and while worth the sale. Damn right it is IMO. Thats a huge chunk of your yearly income. And as a small batch, high dollar business owner/worker, thats the game your in.
I guess in all fairness, you and I need to apply our thinking and standards to the scenario with more exacts. The actual scenario would really dictate where lines of principal are crossed.
One thing too about us younger business folk. IMO you and I are part of different business models. In the sense that, now the WORLD economy plays a FAR greater role than ever before. Also, competition is in FAR greater numbers. Nearly any job these days is in competition with what some web site also offers. Short of a consumers car breaking or heater/air dieing. One can see their offers from others in way never before possible. IMO its changed the dynamics of business like never before. Again only my little opinion. For all its worth.
Overall I really agree with you. I just feel more info needs to be known of the buyer and seller, before making any snap judgements.
Enjoy your retirement. I hope to one day have the chance. Im damn sure trying to make it happen.
Dave
I way prefer to buy from established companies.
My biggest risk in years was buying a used VAC product. I really did not know much about the company. But decided it was the right item at the right price and from the right seller, so i jumped on it.
Glad i did.
Rare for me.
Usually I want only major players in my system.
My expectations are excellent customer care before, during and after any sale.
I wouldn't expect them to pay for shipping both ways. Frankly, I think if they're willing to loan it out for free I should demonstrate some real interest by being willing to pay for shipping.
I don't see the point in there being traditional exclusive dealers who don't have anything in stock. Sooner or later a better model is bound to emerge. I think manufacturers need to figure out how to get demonstration facilities where people can try out a variety of products before buying what they want online for the lowest price. The value that a dealer provides is that he can allow the consumer to try before committing to buying and help customers with setup and optimization. The dealer gets paid for his investment later when the transaction actually happens. I believe this gap will inevitably close one way or another.
If the dealer turned into a service and rental type of a business it would make more sense to me. If a manufacturer thinks he can sell something in an area he commits to it by sending demo units to the hifi showroom. The showroom operator/"dealer" then charges people $100/hour or whatever is required for access to the $10,000 system room. If you want to take the demo unit home you rent it. You receive the value of the in-home trial at the same time that you pay for it. If the manufacturer wants to discount the product for the amount that a person spends renting it, and advertise that, he can work it out with the dealer. If the manufacturer wants to include setup as part of the price he can work that out with the dealer too.
I know Marks throws a fit when this sort of thing is suggested but I think uncomfortable change is inevitable and already here anyway. If Wilson wants a dedicated salesperson he can stick with dedicated dealers or work out something with the showroom to have a trained, competent Wilson advocate available.
I'm sure the showroom would want to have a free room or two where cheaper stuff is available to audition and would probably also want a really good system set up somewhere free so people could get an idea of what was available. You'd just have to pay for the private rooms where you can switch out components and listen to your own music on a fancy system by yourself or with just a service person.
Its rare I need to get in touch with a company these days. Im usually fairly self sufficient. Nowadays seems you have to be for sad reasons. And the times I do need help or want to contact a company I dread it. Well over half the time, you get no where, people have no knowledge, unhelpful and the biggest of all, drum roll... YOU CANT REACH ANYONE!!! No matter what, phone , email.
Now in our audio world this seems again a 50-50 thing. Many of these places are small operations. And for various reasons, communication and service can be spotty. Ive been there and done that with many. Along the way Ive tried to smell the winners, with some success.
Being the owner of a now vintage Aragon 2004, Ive had a bug for a while to have it serviced / rebuilt, hopefully to hear SS done right. So oddly enough, today I gave Indy Audio Labs a call, honestly not expecting anything. To my pleasant surprise someone answered the service call line ASAP. Rick to be exact. WOW, was I taken back. He so generously talked with me in detail for far longer than I should have made him, sorry Rick if you read this. I was told all about the company, its products, history, where there headed and all he knew of my old Aragon amp. He told me all he could about its history, possible avenues for service, how it would stack up to todays products and then some. And while they no longer serviced that particular amp (due to parts availability) he was kind enough to give me a contact of a friend/former mondial employee that they work with and whom may be able to help.
I cant say enough how impressed I was by Rick's friendly helpful nature. Im sorry but overall that seems lost on so many. I cant tell you how many companies / people Ive had to deal with and try to contact only to get NOTHING in response. Or get no real help. This kind of treatment is no longer my expectation. Its simply a pleasant surprise (IMO a gift) when it happens.
And to shamelessly plug Indy Audio Labs. It sounds like they have some amazing products on the way. Made right there in Indiana USA. 5 year warranties. Exceptional build. And IMO for high end top flight amps, they seem VERY reasonable on price.
I even owned up to the fact from the start to Rick I wasnt high roller and more a tube amp guy. And he knew I was only a LONG out of production amp owner just looking for service. This never devalued me to 2nd rate help or service. Man do I wish that could happen with all companies. We might get some where.
This idea web only companies dont suffer poor service... HA! I couldnt disagree more. Be it audio or not. Far from my experience. Places I wanted to do business with I couldnt get so much as a response. Even people I paid big money to Ive been treat like crap by. So no, good and bad service exists everywhere. One just has to be cautious and work towards their best interests.
My 2c since it happened to occur today.
Keep it up Indy Audio Labs!
Dave
Witness AudiogoN.
Free shipping both ways is asking weigh (pun intended) too much of the seller. You should look at my last post and see what a prospective 'buyer' wanted from me to sell an item here on the 'trader' page. If you want something bad enough, put a little effort into making deal 'realistic' for the merchant or seller, and I am sure both of you will be happy.
You're kidding right?
How can any high end audio company expect to stay in existence if they were to do this?
I think you're expecting way too much.
(The rest of your post I can pretty much agree with though.)
My two cents worth anyway.
I bought my amp from Sanders Sound systems who has that policy for 30 day trials. He doesn't get any back that I have heard about. I certainly kept mine and he does quite well. I guess if you are confident about your product the risk is reduced.Aperion Audio is another company with that policy that I am aware of. They have done this for some time. There may be others. Again, if you are confident...
I do agree that most don't do this and it is not my expectation. I give kudos to those who do.
Edits: 06/27/12 06/27/12
while they are at it, why dont they setup it up for you also ?
Asking a bit much for a free shipping there / back, especially if its travelling from one side of the country to the other and not to mention the weight of the item.
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