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Yesterday on one of the Asylum topic forums the Bored found it necessary to step in to remind posters to remain civil to one another. Unfortunately, this problem seems to have become more frequent lately.
Some sports related sites I've seen can become really bad but not all hobby related sites are so insulting and vulgar. Just a few days ago I read an online review of the new Fiat Abarth, a subject I was certain would elicit very mixed comments. This is what I found, with unedited quotes -
* * *
Yuck ! You can buy a V6 Camaro or Mustang for this price .....
oldbimmercoupe
er, let's be polite and just say you are not part of the target market for either of these terrific euro hatches.
* * *
So I must wonder, would it be that difficult for some posters here to exercise a similar level of civility?
"For a nominal service fee,
you can reach nirvana tonight."
Follow Ups:
It's always been a struggle to balance civility versus censorship. Our goal is to provide a healthy, fun community that is supportive, informative and open to diverse opinions. We don't believe in censoring folks because they don't subscribe to the 'group-thought'. At the same time, we don't particularly like the crusaders that have to jump into every single thread about cables or some other topic to preach their gospel.
It's a fine line and one that has a lot of gray.
We see civil debate as a healthy endeavor. People can disagree, but they don't have to be disagreeable in their discourse.
And contrary to popular belief, the mods do not read all of the thousands of posts and 50 odd forums. We rely on the Inmates to alert us to problems. Most posts that are deleted are ads or spam. A small number are from a few that resort to personal attacks as a way to attempt to 'win the debate'.
Herding cats isn't easy and often we do alright and sometimes we don't do a very good job at all. We do try.
Overall, Inmates tend to get along pretty well. Most forums rarely if ever need any moderation and blow ups tend to be fairly rare. When problems do get out of hand, we're usually oblivious until someone blows up and folks finally alert us. Then it always becomes a bigger problem than if we'd been alerted earlier and had nipped it in the bud. Personality conflicts that fester over time are the worst where one person or another is almost stalking someone, continually bringing up old issues.
The hardest issues for us is where Inmates have differing and passionate opinions over technical issues and we're supposed to take sides. Personally, I haven't got a clue about most of those debates and only know enough to be dangerous with a soldering iron.
Adding some more mods that are more technical and into certain forums that the current mods don't read would probably help. Leading by example and knowing the players makes moderation a lot easier.
-Rod
"We see civil debate as a healthy endeavor. People can disagree, but they don't have to be disagreeable in their discourse."
This seems to me key. People will always disagree over technical issues, what components they like best, etc. That kind of factual debate seems fine to me. Unfortunately, some people take a debate over the issues as a personal attack, and then respond with a personal attack. That, in my experience, is when things usually get out of hand. Then it's no longer about the topic, it's about the personalities. There are a few people who routinely make this mistake.
One of the best approaches I've seen is the one that's used over at Audio Circle. When a discussion starts to spiral out of control, they move it into a quarantine area, the way you move misplaced posts. That often cools things down, without the need for censorship, threats, and other unpleasant actions. So as you point out does nipping the problem in the bud, though I understand your problem here.
My intent in my OP was NOT to suggest more intervention by the Bored, and thus not any increased form of censorship as some are concerned about.
Rather it was wondering if we all could simply take a little more responsibility in how we might disagree with something posted by anyone else here. I like Rod's summary, "People can disagree, but they don't have to be disagreeable".
"For a nominal service fee,
you can reach nirvana tonight."
What was actually said and where was it said? I saw the warning and thought it was just generic. If I knew what spurred the remark I could go read the whole thing, put it in perspective and decide if folks were out of line or overly-aggressively-policed by The Bored. Where were the offending remarks, originally, that caused this uproar? I don't mind being policed, just refer me to the behavior that set this off in the first place...I read these boards everyday, and unless I didn't frequent the particular post(s) I missed it/them altogether. Thanks.
Freedom is the right to discipline yourself.
In addition to what I have already said in my post below I would like to point out just how fortunate everyone is to have such a responsive Board/Bored.
They listen and they care.
Sites don't have to put up with uncivil rubbish & neither do the other participants.
These guys are listening and they know that 99.9% of us want to discuss aspects of our hobbies in a friendly, non confrontational and non abusive atmosphere.
The Bored have put out a clear warning, if you can't behave don't come and if you do come we will send you packing!
Once again I say congratulations and keep up the good work.
The regulars are happy and don't leave and the newcomers see that this is a nice place to be and join us all.
We really are so fortunate to have such a responsive and responsible Bored/Board.
Once again keep up the great work guys!
Bruce
I believe it is high time the Bored steps in to lend a helping hand to those who are not able to refrain from spewing insults and character attacks. Censorship, hardly. Just a reminder that participation in this site also carries with it some personal responsibility. To equate setting boundaries with censorship or McCarthyism is a poorly disguised form of demagoguery to try an make your point.
Of course, the Bored should act as the "civility police". If not them, then who? I think that some good people tend to get scared off by cyber bullies and I for one applaud applying restraints when needed.
If it isn't "Mcarthyism" it certaninly is a step in that direction IMO..My point is- who determines (and to what extent) the exact amount when someone's "feelings get hurt" simply because of a post that someone may have chose to use "creative wording"...do we rely upon that old "art vs porn" adage ("I'll know it when I see it") . Ohhhh; I can hear it now: "Such determinations are hard if not impossible to measure; so you know what- we're gonna not take chances and just throw the whole thing out".
Btw "Mcarthyism" IMO isn't that much of a stretch sir.. relatively speaking, this is after all, an audio forum, not a Senate floor; so my question is: "how long will it take before text are
struck away, blacked out, or eliminated all together?Me, once again would prefer too see these type of negative posting hustled off onto another forum; perhaps even whiners road (where this one will probably end up).
may the bridges I burn light the way....
Edits: 03/15/12
The owner(s) of this place and those they choose to appoint as moderators - that's who.
This is not systematic government-imposed censorship. It is some people who volunteer a LOT of time to provide us with a FREE site where we can exchange ideas on audio and non-audio topics. It seems they'd like to have a site where people can exchange ideas without vitriol, personal attacks and undue profanity. I suspect most people here share that desire.
Don't like that? Start your own forum and run it however you see fit.
rlindsa
but if you and your cronies live your lives by lock stepping along the masses; then by all means continue.Myself, I skirt the boundries; I also think anyone who does (in a respecatble manner) should not be censored, banned, ostracized, outcasted, or 'whatever' you choose how to lable it.
I think Rod pretty much nailed it above on this thread; right on point; he is after all the 'owner' as you point out, yet he doesn't suggest those who chose to do otherwise go and 'create their own website' as you so over the top put it...(smh)
may the bridges I burn light the way....
Edits: 03/16/12 03/16/12
You said you believe "If it isn't "McCarthyism" it certaninly is a step in that direction IMO.." and asked "who determines".
To equate the owner of a site (or his proxies) who deletes someone's post or asks them to cease and desist with "McCarthyism" (or a step in that direction) is ludicrous. It's a privately owned site, and they can do whatever they want. The FORUM FAQ even has some guidelines for posting that includes:
"C. No flames, personal attacks or contentious off-topic comments: The idea is to make this a pleasant environment to discuss audio, not a schoolyard, or name-calling and rock-throwing festival."
and
"F. Watch your language. With the exception of the "Outside" forum, the Asylum is not a home for potty-mouths. Foul, offensive, or crude language is not welcome. ....."
If I open my house to my neighbors (for free)and one of them comes in and starts verbally assaulting another person there or using undue profanity - I'll ask them to leave. And if they don't, I'll throw them out. Is that a step towards McCarthyism?
The simple fact is, this is a privately owned and managed site. They can make whatever rules and judgments they want. Those who don't like those rules and judgments can leave. IMHO, Rod and the moderator team are usually extremely patient with people who don't abide by the forum rules - sometimes to a fault.
rlindsa
.
may the bridges I burn light the way....
n/t
Amen to that my brotha'.........
Things have cleaned up considerably since Regor stopped posting. His rants at other members were over the top.
I visit these boards all the time, and don't see much of a problem here......... Sure, flare-ups occur on occasion, but I don't think it's epidemic or out-of-the-ordinary..............I think the only measure that I'd suggest is something I recommended before- Heated threads diverted to a "flame" board, so if people want to go at it, at least it will be out of view from the main boards....... Or if one wants civility, he/she can just avoid visiting the "flame" board........ Otherwise I think these boards are fine just the way they are.
Maybe name the flame board "The Back Yard" or something...... Out of view of the main boards. No different from "Outside" in this regard. The only difference is the new board would be mostly audio and music (originating from other boards), where Outside is mostly politics and controversial topics that are not audio or music.
Edits: 03/14/12
and who decides whats 'civil?'; the 'board?' what if they can't agree? lol...My solution is to simply hustle folks off to Outside or Watercooler when things get out of hand. That way freedom of expression isn't compormised, and at the same time gleefully leaving the others free to pass around daisies along with non-interrupted Kum bi ya chorus's.
The moment I see such 'censorship' occurring I'm grabbing my hat and bailing...and yes I know; no big loss but so what.
P.S. should read 'too' on the title line..
may the bridges I burn light the way....
Edits: 03/14/12
I certainly prefer civil discourse. Some issues become heated, yet there should be a point at which diverging parties simply agree to disagree. I frequent another website that has discussions and forums at least as broad as those presented here at AA, and they have chosen to use a "nanny filter" to BLEEP out many potentially offending profanities. I am somewhat surprised, yet at the same time greatly gladdened that such a filter has not been implemented here.
Free, unedited speech is a wonderful thing. In most instances, I think AA takes a very gentle hand with respect to moderation and censorship - an approach that should be greatly applauded!
That said? It is a fine thing to have an opinion & present it with great gusto! Just please don't stomp on people just for the fun of it.
Hey, civil summa this.......
David, do you agree that going after the messenger instead of the actual message to be part of this civil discourse? THIS, is where the line is to be drawn. To totally disagree with someones opinion is one thing but to pull that person out of the crowd and talk about THAT person rather than the topic is the issue that needs to be 'moderated'
Ideas themselves should be discussed and/or argued. People themselves should not be the focus.
...It helps to be specific.
Smile
Sox
.
Sox, I didn't think the specifics were as important as the basic act. But here is the link to the Speaker Asylum post that stimulated my initiating this one if anyone is interested.
"For a nominal service fee,
you can reach nirvana tonight."
If I want to see that kind of language I can always go over to the Water Cooler.
It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense.
Mark Twain
this is why I say those who exhibit that type of behavior should be 'escorted' over to Outside or Water Cooler.
However- and lets face it, no one has time to baby sit grown ups; multiple violators should get a reprimand, and then possibly banned.
may the bridges I burn light the way....
Now, pull your head out! Slowly, if you must.
Here's to hoping you were trying to be funny. Otherwise, your response is a good example of what not to do.
Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera...
Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there, black and white,
clear as crystal! Blah, blah, and so on and so forth ...
I was trying to be funny. I really didn't and don't know the particulars on this.
Clear cut humor on these type of boards can sometimes be difficult to pull off without ambiguity.
I do not find you comment funny. It can be read as a crass comment in poor taste that does not forward the conversation
I think most would understand that I wasn't talking to you. There is context to my response that the OP understands. When I look at the extremes of the debate, IMO, being a weenie is not constructive.
I took your reply as tongue in cheek. ;-)
"For a nominal service fee,
you can reach nirvana tonight."
If anyone is paying attention, that was funny.
...by the word, "Yuck"?
No wonder you think we need more civility here...
Jeez, I hardly ever get offended over what's posted on Outside...... [-;
I guess the tolerance level varies from person to person........ I complain that the boards are *too* civil.................
I don't think that trivialising things helps.
There is no doubt that there are extremely uncivil people who post here.
There have been other posts on this matter.
A whole raft of people have up and left for the "other" planar forum.
I think that the board/bored should be congratulated in trying to lift the standard of behaviour.
Keep up the good work.
There is absolutely no reason why audiophiles (or anyone else for that matter!) need to be rude and impolite to each other.
Be encouraged guys and keep working at it.
I (& many others) think that this is something really important.
We can only step in when we are aware of a problem. Since the mods have other (real-world) jobs, and there are thousands of posts made across dozens of boards each day, we mostly have to rely on inmates to use the comment feature when they have a concern.
Thanks!
Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera...
Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there, black and white,
clear as crystal! Blah, blah, and so on and so forth ...
Oh, and just so you don't think we're going all "goody-two-shoes" on you, you can go #%@$#^@%@ yourself! ;-)
I think he was trying to say that the quoted responses were in fact civil, but I guess you knew that.
Edits: 03/14/12
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