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I'm curious to learn who of the inmates has permanently transitioned to hard-drive based digital playback. In which case, please answer the following:What level of conventional digital did you own before (Rotel, Audio Aero, Meitner)?
What, exactly, replaced it (hard-drive/CPU, sound card/DAC, interface [S/PDIF, AES/EBU, USB, other])?
Was your move convenience, price or performance based?
If the latter, can you comment on what you gained?
What's the retail cost of your HD-based digital rig now compared to the best conventional digital you owned before?
How many CDs did you rip to hard-drive?
Did you use something like EAC to do it? Please specify your "data acquisiton" protocol, real time vs. hi-speed, what software interface is used etc.
Do you download music? If so, what's the rough percentage between ripping original CDs and uploading streaming music?Lastly, this one's for the technically savvy only:
If your experience with HD-based music servers thus far suggests that the format is inherently superior; superior when comparing price to price with S/PDIF; or as good for a lot less money...
what is your understanding about why it is better?Thanks in advance to anyone who cares to participate.
Follow Ups:
> What level of conventional digital did you own before
> (Rotel, Audio Aero, Meitner)?Pretty fancy DACs. Camelot Uther v2 Mk4,
Audio Note 4.1x Signature (Bel Canto DAC-2,
others). Also fairly fancy
jitter busters (Genesis Digital Lens) and
"resolution-enhancement" devices (Perpetual P-1A).
I've never been into fancy transports (well,
unless you consider Sony SCD-777ES fancy).> What, exactly, replaced it (hard-drive/CPU, sound card/DAC,
> interface [S/PDIF, AES/EBU, USB, other])?cd3o 802.11-B wireless player and music server
software.
http://www.cd3o.comThe player has S/PDIF out (coax and optical) and
the player and server software (unlike most such
devices, at least "low-end" ones) handles uncompressed
WAV files as well as MP3s. The software runs under
Windows XP (or Windows 2000) only.The indexing, for WAV files, is a bit difficult --
it utilizes (non-standard) MusicMatch ID tags,
which means you also need MusicMatch (their
"supertagging" is a nice feature;
in all other respects, MusicMatch is a bloody
nuisance)."Replace" isn't exactly the right word -- the cd3o(s)
replaced, or supplemented, transports only -- the Genesis Digital
Lens, Perpetual P-1A, and various DACs remained the
same. (The Genesis Digital Lens's RAM buffer **will** activate
with non-transport-sourced S/PDIF, contrary to some
reports I've seen).> Was your move convenience, price or performance based?
Entirely convenience. A friend bought one, and when
I saw it and realized it could be compatible with
a high-end system, I had to have one too.> What's the retail cost of your HD-based digital rig
> now compared to the best conventional digital you owned before?The wireless players are a few hundred each, and didn't
add significantly to the overall cost of my system(s).
The computer I already owned. ;->> How many CDs did you rip to hard-drive?
A couple of hundred, before I pooped out. (I've since
returned to CD-ripping with a vengeance!)> Did you use something like EAC to do it?
Yes, EAC. I'd ripped a dozen CDs with MusicMatch before
I became aware of clicks and pops in the ripped copies.
Then I put further ripping on hold, researched the matter
on the Web, and discovered EAC. I started over again
and ripped everything afresh with EAC. It's great!
I use Freedb (via EAC) to name the files, and then use
MusicMatch **only** to "super-tag" the WAV files from
their names (and to re-name the files).> Please specify your "data acquisition" protocol,
> real time vs. hi-speed. . .EAC works at very high speed -- 5x to 25x, usually --
via my Sony DRU-510A DVD drive. Except in the case
of "difficult" CDs (most of which I knew were difficult,
because they'd caused problems on stand-alone players),
in which case the ripping speed drops to less than
real time, and a single disc can literally take
overnight to rip (which must put a terrible strain on
the disc drive). I do have discs with manufacturing
flaws that had audible problems, or which were unplayable,
and which were totally recovered by EAC.EAC "specs" your drive as part of the installation process,
and knows, for example, whether it can take advantage
of "C2" error detection/correction. When EAC finishes
a rip with "No errors reported", that means there
were **no** (uncorrected) errors -- the ripped copy is
absolutely bit-perfect. It gives you some confidence
in how your CD collection is holding up after 20 or 25
years -- in the vast majority of cases, very well
indeed! (contrary to hysteria about self-destructing
CDs and laser rot). The few exceptions are generally
discs that have always been problematic (and with
EAC, there's a good chance of recovering those too).> Do you download music?
No.
> If your experience with HD-based music servers thus
> far suggests that the format is inherently superior. . .It didn't; but neither did my experience suggest it was
inherently inferior, at least sonically. Having a computer
involved in listening to music giveth and taketh away --
you don't have to go hunting for that particular CD
if it's in the database, but all too often I'd sit
down at the machine only to find out that the server
software had "lost contact" with the player, necessitating
re-booting the player, re-booting the server, and/or
screwing around with the wireless router and/or network
bridge. Also, computers just make too damn much noise,
wherever they are in the house.However, I've now gone back to plastic coasters after
discovering the Eximius "re-mastering" software
http://www.eximius.nl/dvdaudio.phpIt sounds **fabulous**. Nevertheless, I'm happy I had a head
start learning how to rip my CDs to WAVs, because I'm now
Eximius-processing them and burning them to DVD-Rs.Jim F.
> Having a computer involved in listening to music
> giveth and taketh away. . .There's also the backup problem, and the possibility
of losing a hell of a lot of work if you get lazy
or careless.I've been **pretty** careful about this -- a half-terabyte
disk drive and USB enclosure costs -- what -- $475
these days at CompUSA?But I did have a 300 GB drive (being used as a cd3o
server disk) go belly-up recently. Fortunately, it
was backed up. I re-formatted it, and it seemed
to be OK, then it went belly-up again!It'll be nice to have something like this:
"Fuji Photo, CMC Magnetics and four other companies
have formed a consortium to develop Holographic
Versatile Discs (HVD). These discs are expected
to hold up to one terabyte of data each. This is
enough space for over one hundred movies on a single disc."
http://groups.google.com/group/yu.comp.software/msg/bffdbbd865b88d07
Srajan: market study for 6moons ? (Good job btw, I read it regularly)I went from an Arcam CD player to a PC based system. The machine by itself is nothing fancy. Ultra quiet was the only requirement, the PC is in the listening room. To read audio, you do not need any computing power. The soundard is just a way to carry the signal outside the computer into SPDIF/toslink. I chose M-audio transit. Without monitor, the whole computer is about $600 (self-assembly, way too powerful CPU, quiet hard drive and housing). I feed the hi-fi system with the SPDIF signal. The resale price of the Arcam paid for the computer entirely.
The move was performanced based. The digital out of a computer can be as good as or better than the one of a CD player. I was no longer needing an analog output from a cd-player (digital amps). If you tweak the soundcard, you can get external clocking to get a reference clock for the whole system. Some soundcards already have clock inputs (any serious soundcard above $500 has one). I have yet to build an clean power supply for the soundcard.
The system is almost a year old. I have a little over 100 cds now on the hard drive. It is cumbersome to go through the CD collection and rip music. Time consumming and the backlog is long (a little discouraging). Most CDs are ripped as soon as I get home now.
Software: EAC has the audiophiles aura, but I still wonder why (some guy some day declared it was better... so plenty followed?) . It is much slower than other free softwares and does not improve sound quality (from my experience at least). I compared music extracted with different softwares, bits are exactly the same (Matlab for comparison). I use only EAC for the very, very rare case when a CD is scratched (and significant scratches are rare in my CD collection). I extract music with audiograbber (also freeware). I use freecddb to fetch the cd titles. Extraction is done at 20 to 30 X. I cache the tracks entirely in the RAM first before writing them to the HD. No compression, directly to wav.
Playback: foobar with ASIO4all driver. ASIO makes a significant difference (no unwanted resampling of data, no weird behavior)
Download: no. I buy cds locally and support local independent commerce. I still use a rig at work with cds anyways. Furthermore, I prefer having a "hard" copy... just in case my hd fails.
Superiority of HD based system: a PC based system reads the exact information each time, regardless of its price (a $200 pc will do). After that, it is a matter of having a good clock and a relative electrical noise free system... but CD players are not exempt of these problems. To affirm technical superiority of HD system, the real question becomes: is there significant and audible error correction with a CD player? Considering some cd players buffer the music, I have doubts. But I have yet to find a $200 Meridian !
I moved from a nondescript technics player to digital quite a few years back. The first digital system I used was a linux based system that used cdparanoia as its ripper and lame and its encoder. cdparanoia rereads the bits until it is sure it is reading them properly. My new system is a simple itunes based system (I like the interface) w/ an extra external drive acting as a backup. The rips are to 320k mp3 for portability w/ an extra itunes airport for connecting to a proper stereo system. The main advantage of having the hard drive based system is that your entire music collection is accessible and furthermore you can listen to mixes w/out having to continuously flip cds. "Random" helps you rediscover old music you haven't taken out in ages :)
...that I hadn't considered.
We built a transport that reads the CD (every last bit on it too) and stores it on hard drive. The machine runs under Linux with none of the latency issues that other computor based servers have. The output is buffered through memory so that jitter is kept to a minimum.The setup is not difficult and the hardware is cheap, yet the resulting transport/server/network is a first rate transport by highend standards. It can download off the web easily enough without security or virus problems (being Linux), simply by adding a screen, keyboard and mouse, but CD remains the main source.
We believe dedicated CD hardware will be supplanted by machines such as this.
I bought the very first VRS system. At the 04 CES I displayed with 47 Labs. One night Junji Kimura wanted to hear the VRS so we played a disc of music we had just heard live, Misty River Band. First we played it on Junji's PiTracer/Shigaraki system with dual power supplies on each the transport and DAC. Using the 47 switchbox we compared the hard disk system to the Pitracer Shigaraki combination. Junji's comment was "one day, I knew it wouold happen".Once I had heard Ray Kimber's demo at the San Fran Stereophile show 03, it became audibly obvious to me, hard disks rule sonically. The PiTracer was dead even using a de-static'd and perfectly clean disc. No other trans/dac I have heard can do what PiTracer or hard disks can do. Some one bax players modded by TRL as well as Audio Aero and a few others are amazingly good and listenable of course. Hard disc simply offer SOTA performance at less cost IMHO.
TC
"big deal, so what?"Dr. Emilio Lizardo
I switched somewhat before I began taking my audio very seriously, so you could say I replaced a non-descript Technics CD player, but I don't think I've ever owned an audiophile CD player. I do currently have a Pioneer universal player for DVDs, DVD-As and SACDs, but it's not particularly special. I do occasionally drop a CD in it if someone brings one over, but I haven't done a detailed comparison vbetween it and my hard drive based system.I've constructed several hard drive based systems over the years, but my current one is an Apple eMac with an external USB M-Audio Duo DAC. I originally ripped my entire CD collection, about 500 discs, into the aiff format with iTunes and stored it on a couple of 250 GB external Firewire hard drives. I use a little free app called Clutter to snarf the cover art off of Amazon. When Apple released the Apple Lossless Codec, and it was confirmed to be bit-for-bit accurate, I compressed all of my music with that allowing me to get everything onto only one external drive.
One issue I've had was recently I experienced a bit of HFS+ filesystem corruption on the external drive. This was repairable with Disk Utility, but I lost about 400 files, out of about 7000, so I've had to dig the CDs out of boxes and re-rip those. Incidentally, since my problem was with the filesystem, not the hardware, a RAID array would not have protected me from this issue. I've subsequently copied all of my music onto a new drive with the ext3 filesystem in my Linux server. The eMac now uses NFS to access the shared drive and generally acts as if the file were local. I use the external Firewire drive as a backup, though, as I actually own all the original CDs, this is a bit excessively redundant.
There are a couple of other practical issues with the system as well. First, the eMac has an audible fan. I originally considered using a Mac mini, but with the requisite monitor it cost more than the eMac. It would have been a better solution in terms of noise, however, and I would have gone that route with a little better planning. Second, I find it somewhat harder to actually sit down and listen to an album. iTunes does an annoying thing where it gaps slightly when changing from track to track, but the bigger issue is the damn shuffle button is too tempting compared to actually picking something to listen to. I sort of miss the experience of picking a CD off the rack, dropping it in the player and taking a seat. I guess I get that experience from vinyl still, but I miss it a bit with the CDs.
Finally, an additional benefit I get from having the computer wired to my system is the ability to record. I mostly end up copying LPs to my digital library for use as background music or to burn CDs for the car, or even to be further compressed (shudder!) for my iPod. I have the tape outputs on my preamp connected to the inputs on the Duo and I use a program called Amadeus II for the actual recording. I typically record both sides of an LP as one long file, apply processing, and then use markers to split it into tracks. As far as processing goes, Amadeus II offers a facility for repairing record pops which sounds decent if used sparingly. Also, I've corrected the EQ on some poorly mastered LPs and occasionally applied limiting to get the rms level up to that of a modern CD. With classic recordings, I've managed to produce better sounding CDs than some of the official label reissues, and I find this process to be almost as enjoyable a part of this hobby as the actual listening.
In conclusion, I think the computer can be a valuable asset in an audio system even if it isn't used as the primary source. I also think it's important to dedicate a machine for that purpose and select it's hardware and software configuration with audio related use in mind.
Well, I haven't made a *permanent* transition, I'm more or less running in parallel mode :-)For details of my system, check out the Inmate Systems part of this site.
What level of conventional digital did you own before (Rotel, Audio Aero, Meitner)? -> check out my entry in the Inmate Systems part of this site.
What, exactly, replaced it (hard-drive/CPU, sound card/DAC, interface [S/PDIF, AES/EBU, USB, other])? -> Custom built HTPC running Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 with E-MU 1820M for sound. Music is stored on a single 250GB hard drive located on a separate server in the attic.
Was your move convenience, price or performance based? -> Both
If the latter, can you comment on what you gained? -> Better quality? Convenience - ability to listen to music anywhere in house, plus ability to navigate music collection by remote control (pocket pc running netremote controlling the music playback over Wi-Fi)
What's the retail cost of your HD-based digital rig now compared to the best conventional digital you owned before? -> Uhmm ... I'll let you do the math
How many CDs did you rip to hard-drive? -> Over 500 (about halfway done), plus I'm ripping most of my DVD-Audios as well (both 5.1 and 2.0 versions)
Did you use something like EAC to do it? Please specify your "data acquisiton" protocol, real time vs. hi-speed, what software interface is used etc. -> Standard ripping facilities in Windows Media Player/Media Center to WMA Lossless. Ripping DVD-Audios are a little bit more complicated :-)
Do you download music? If so, what's the rough percentage between ripping original CDs and uploading streaming music? -> Nope, never download, I only rip stuff I own (and I don't sell them afterwards either, for legal reasons).
Just this week, I dumped my $1500 Bryston 10B active crossover for a free software crossover plugin for Foobar.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/xoverThis software, in fact, is much more powerful than the Bryston, offering 8 separate assignable channels, allowing 4-way active crossovers of all kinds of crossover protocols (Linkwitz, etc) up to 60 dB slopes. Crossover point? All you have to do is type in the number. You can type in "128 Hz" or "2562 Hz" if you wanted, and voila!
What's even more amazing is that this software-based x-over sounds better than the Bryston. Just cleaner, clearer, with less distortions.
Then there's the DRC (digital room correction) free software that threatens to make the likes of TACT, DEQX work hard for their money (a LOT of money in fact).
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=14160&highlight=Then there's Foobar, another free software that plays lossless music files like nobody's business. FAR better sounding than iTunes if you're using PC instead of Mac. Absolute gift to mankind IMO.
So far it's cost me $0.00 for SOTA music player, 4-way transparent digital x-over, and Room Correction.
Use the computer you have alreay. Buy a hard drive or two at $100 a pop for 160-200 gigs these days. Too much noise? Get Red Wine Audio or Bolder to mod the ridiculously low-priced Squeezebox and stream lossless music from another room into your favorite DAC.
I do have Empirical Audio modded USB/Spdif converter, and it does sound fantastic powering the DAC of your choice. But I'm happy currently just using my Lynx 2B pro soundcard (as used in VRS system) with modded DB25 interface (by me). No Spdif, not even USB to worry about. Good old reliable PCI connection sounds great to me, especially when vibration damping and appropriate shelf/power cords are used for the PC (as strange as it sounds).
Playing FLAC files (CD's ripped with EAC or iTunes in secure mode) in Foobar with ASIO dll plugin, going through Foobar x-over software, sans active preamp, actively biamping VAC Renaissance tube amp for top and SS for bass on my 95dB custom speakers, I have music more accurate, more detailed, and more enjoyable (for my tastes) than my previous front-end using Resolution Audio Opus 21 and Cary CD301 tubed CDP modded by Alex Peychev (which I far prefer over Opus 21).
Downloading music is also great fun. I refuse to download compressed music files, but I have downloaded good-sounding lossless FLAC files from "the-website-that-cannot-be-named." This opened completely new vistas in my musical tastes and enjoyment b/c I'm able to buy lossless files selectively from artistsa and genres I never would have bought CD's from.
PC audio to entirely replace traditional front-end is not for the timid. Being a complete computer newbie, I spent many nights fighting with software and hardware to get it right. If you're an audiophile just thinking about dabbling in PC audio thinking it's the easy way to good sound, think again. Just like traditional audio, it takes constant fiddling and dedication to set up correctly, but to me it has been worth it just purely on sonic quality alone. The ability to instantly access all my music in 2 seconds from my listening seat is just a bonus (a big bonus one cannot live without once tasted).
Srajan, I think you and Gordon should talk and go straight to his Cosecant top-of-the-line USB DAC.
Jon L,I read about your setup in the 6Moons article (linked off the Slim Devices forum). I have been investigating the various computer-based options, currently leaning toward a SqueezeBox. I don't mind having a PC in the room though, so if I could omit the SB, that money could go elsewhere. I learned about the Foobar software from the Empirical Audio site. But they seem to imply their USB-S/PDIF converter and an active preamp are required for such a system to truly sound hi-end. I'm wondering about your experience.
You state "no active preamp." Are you using volume control from your soundcard? (Also, I did a search for "Lynx 2B Pro sound card" and could not find anything. Do you have a link?)
It sounds like you are not using an external dac? How does that work? And, I'm not familiar with a PCI connection or DB25 interface.
Basically, I want to know if I can go from a PC to a DAC (maybe even omit that?) to my amp - and have it sound good.
Thanks for any help you can give. If you think it would be better to email me directly, my email is: steve@vinsons.ws
(I tried to send an email direct to you, but was getting an error message.)
nt
Howdy SE,I have migrated to a hard drive based system. It consists of the following:
Maxtor 300g HHD
PC/XPpro running itunes
Wireless Squeezebox 2 music server/Slimserver 6.2 feeding a Birdland Odeon-AG Dac then on to the toobz!I have owned a Sony SCD-777ES and a Cary 302 CDP among others, and have auditioned several other fine players including Metronome, Consonance, and the Lector Alphatop, which I consider the finest I have heard in my own home. The HHD based system sounds excellent and I enjoy the relative simplicity and ease of use. I am now listening to more music than ever. Do I believe the sound of my (unmodded) system equals or surpasses the finest CDP? No, but it is damn close.
I do not download music, but I guess I lose my digital "purist" card since I have ripped over 500 CDs to Apple Lossless format using iTunes. I still have several hundred yet to go, but my faves are "in da box". I am also considering converting my vinyl via my Terratec DMX 6Fire sound card and using Wavelab to save the digital file to CD or DVD for archival purposes and then playing it back on the HD. It takes forever to really do it right, but with care (and a Wright Sound phono stage!)the results are usually excellent. I only have 500 albums, so I should be finished by 2034... ;?)
Cheers!
i notice i get a lot of musical satisfaction listening to music playing from itunes on my vaio laptop pc. no external dac, amps and speakers, just the tiny ones on the laptop and i can listen to it continously and often feel the urge to groove with the music.i still have the scd-1, scd-xa9000es, and the new dvp-ns9100es.
i also have the option to run a usb cable out from the vaio to an usb-to-optical converter into my av amlifier, when i need to play it louder.
playing continuously on the laptop, sonic quality is more consistent track to track than all other optical disc machines i have tried. sure it is more detailed and transparent on all my three optical players, but the problem is they never sound the same if cued up and played using different methods. once cued up properly, the sonic quality only last for that current track. as soon as the next track starts, some jitter problems comes in again, puuting a brake on the effortless sense of ease, introducing some fatigueness, reducing soundstaging and bring forward soundstaging perspective. i always have to eject / reload disc and cued up the track (using a certain method, and no remote) to make it sound optimal. using harddrives bring in a lot of the sound consistency necessary for hassle free listening.
i have probably 30 cds i ripped to hard-drive using itunes
all are ripped as wavefiles.
when music is being tracked properly (more so on a harddisk) the satisfaction level is not diminished by tiny amps and speakers playing at low volumes.
there's something inherently wrong about the way optical disc machines go about retrieving data. only the meitner combo has been able to solve this problem. but that is an ultra expensive system and one still cannot justify spending that much money when sacd releases have run dry.
harddrives are affordable solutions, minus the fatigue of optical disc drives and minus the colourations of needle-groove interaction of vinyl playback. the sooner we move to harddrives the better.
see my previous post on this subject.
You may want to PM John Swenson. He has experimented as much as anyone who has been posting comments/results/feedback on this subject. Of his experiments, apparently the optimal current design for a said DAC IC (that can accept I2S) is: PC=> USB cable=> USB Controller=> I2S=> Dac Chip; completely eliminating spdif. The latter three stages are inside the DAC chassis. It was his initial design (the pcm2706/7 USB interface) that was implemented by Klaus for his tda1543 Dac (and latter by Brent) on the diyhifi.org thread to which you referred in your recent 6moons commentary. A search on the PC Audio forum using keyword "USB" and John's name will yield 70 posts on the USB interface. I've read that Philips engineers ended up implementing spdif out of convenience rather than for its technical merit. This is not to say that one cannot achieve great results with USB=> SPDIF=> Favorite DAC as Pedja's experiments demonstrate that there can be more volatility in performance due to differences between two tda1543 chips, than from switching from spdif to I2S. However, USB=> I2S now seems very promosing for those who like nonos dac's using the tda1543 and tda1541 chips (or any DAC chip that accepts I2S for that matter) both in terms of quality and convenience.
Hi RioTubes.Do you know if the Crystal CS8414CS accepts I2S?
Thanks,Rupe
Hi Rupe. The short answer is "no". If interested, here's more context. CS8414 is a digital audio receiver. In the context of a Dac, its job is to receive an audio signal from a transmission line, recover the clock, and decode the signal according to an interface standard, generally spdif. The interconnect cable is the transmission line through which the digital receiver (within the Dac) receives the audio signal from the transport. It is the CS8414 within your DAC chassis that first receives this signal before handing it off to the DAC chip for digital-to-analog conversion. Although the CS8414 (and 8412) cannot receive and decode according to I2S format, it can, after receiving the signal in spdif format, transmit the decoded signal to the DAC in I2S. The vast majority of CD transports transmit the audio signal using spdif format to the DAC.In a USB DAC, a USB Controller--like the PCM2706--REPLACES a digital receiver (such as the cs8414). It performs the same job (not to complicate matters, but the 2706 happens to have an onboard dac, but most designs I've reviewed elect to handle the d-to-a using another DAC chip). The USB controller receives/decodes the signal, and then transmits the signal via I2S or SPDIF to the Dac chip. Some commercial USB Dacs receive the audio signal via USB but then transmit it via SPDIF to the Dac chip. So SPDIF is still in the equation. It is my understanding that I2S is a superior format to SPDIF that results in reduced jitter. So if one intended to design a Dac without spdif in the chain, one would need to use a USB controller that outputs in I2S as well as a Dac chip that accepts I2S. I do not have broad familiarity with Dac chips, but I know that tda1543 and tda1541 accept I2S.
This is why we don't see more USB-to-I2S converter boxes on the market. Although a niche market may exist, there just aren't many commercial Dacs that have I2S inputs. The format just wasn't widely adopted, albeit a superior one.
The digital interface--whether it be I2S or spdif--is but just one element that affects the performance of the Dac. Clock recovery, digital conversion, power supply and analog stage all play a huge role in the quality of the DAC. So not everyone is going to run out and become early adopters of USB dacs. For those who are satisfied with their current Dac but inclined to try USB, they have the option of using a USB-to-spdif converter. This pretty much stretches the limits of my understanding of this subject and, if I've errored, I hope the engineers among us will set us straight.
n
I think it is premature to jump now, especially with the Reality Check copies sounding so good on player reading.As I understand it, there is no jitter and no errors on hard drive. The convenience is obvious. The problem of hard drive crashes does not alarm me, but then again I have not had one in 25 years of computer use.
I expect that CES will see many new devices of this ilk.
I went from a Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista 3D CDP to a “music server” consisting of a 3 gHz Pentium in an adjoining room connected via a hardwired Ethernet cable to a ROKU M1000 Soundbridge with it’s S/PDIF output connected to a Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista 21 DAC.I have two 250 gig hard drives in the pC- one strictly for music ripped via Itunes to uncompressed .wav files. ITunes runs the server and since the ROKU has a very nice display and remote control, I can select any of my 500 songs instantly.
I do not download music except to sample what I might be interested in via iTunes. If I like what I hear, I then buy the CD.
I did it for convenience, but I will say my computer / ROKU equipment setup easily rivals or surpasses the prior MF Nu-Vista setup.
Cost wise, it’s about half the price of a high quality CD player. I also avoid all the noise and USB concerns of a computer IN the listening room. I also believe the hardwired Ethernet connection to avoid any pitfalls of wireless throughput or connectivity.
Music is Emotion
n
Appreciate it, folks. I'm trying to collect some background data for a little "industry features" on my site, from the perspective of "hardcore" 'philes making this transition - why, how, how much etc.I must say this side of the Asylum -- the truly helpful, willing to share with complete strangers side -- is an incredible resource and I'm truly grateful for these contributions.
Gracias -:)
*What level of conventional digital did you own before?*
Krell kps25c
Naim CDS3*What, exactly, replaced it (hard-drive/CPU, sound card/DAC, interface [S/PDIF, AES/EBU, USB, other])?*
Squeezebox2/47Labs Shigaraki DAC/Dumpty PS/SPDIF/external HD for storage
*Was your move convenience, price or performance based?*
Primairily for convenience but hoping for a decent performance.*What's the retail cost of your HD-based digital rig now compared to the best conventional digital you owned before?*
Krell/Naim: 20k/14k
SB2 HD: 3500$ ( not counting a laptop used for a navigation )*How many CDs did you rip to hard-drive?*
Approx. 700*Did you use something like EAC to do it? Please specify your "data acquisiton" protocol, real time vs. hi-speed, what software interface is used etc.*
via ITunes. All AIFF.*Do you download music?*
No.
It would seem we both share much of the same philosophy as our setup is quite similar.
Music is Emotion
The slim server's pitfall is its user interface and its cumbesome installation.
Roku was a breeze to set up even for me, but without wireless feature working properly in my house, I had to return it.
> What level of conventional digital did you own before (Rotel, Audio Aero, Meitner)?Onkyo DVSP-1000 Universal player
> What, exactly, replaced it (hard-drive/CPU, sound card/DAC, interface [S/PDIF, AES/EBU, USB, other])?
Existing computer with Athlon XP 3200+ CPU, 1 GB RAM. Added two 300 GB SATA drives in a RAID 1 configuration to the motherboard's built-in RAID controller. Wireless streaming to a Squeezebox 2 connected to a Benchmark DAC 1 via TOSLink. Squeezebox adds internet radio feature, which eliminates (for me) any need for an FM tuner. Added a Dell 600m laptop in the listening location to control the SlimServer app for music selection.
> Was your move convenience, price or performance based?
Convenience and also fun factor of computer audio
> What's the retail cost of your HD-based digital rig now compared to the best conventional digital you owned before?
Retail cost of computer peripherals is not meaningful. Paid $160 ea. for the 300 GB hard drives, $300 (retail) for the Squeezebox and $975 (retail) for the Benchmark DAC 1. Total price of these adds up to about what I paid for the Onkyo universal player.
> How many CDs did you rip to hard-drive?
About 650
> Did you use something like EAC to do it? Please specify your "data acquisiton" protocol, real time vs. hi-speed, what software interface is used etc.
EAC was used in secure mode, invoking the FLAC encoder automatically from within EAC. Shift-F6 (test and copy selected tracks) was used, which does a test rip and CRC computation, then an actual rip with a second CRC computation. The test and final CRC values are displayed side-by-side after the rip is complete so any discrepancies can be flagged and the rip invalidated in the case of problems. This identified two defective discs. These discs were tried on several different CD-RW drives, none of which were able to produce an error-free rip. New copies of these discs were bought, which fixed the problem. Also, neither of my CD-RW drives were able to rip the 80-minute Workingman's Dead HDCD without errors, so a new CD-RW drive was bought. This fixed the problem with long CDs. The AccurateRip plugin was used to compute the read offset of the drive, and separate read and write offsets were used. See "The Coaster Factory" site for an explanation of read and write offsets. In each directory to which a CD is ripped (one per), a log file is saved for verification, as well as a CUE file. The CUE file is part of a "double backup" strategy in case the original CD gets damaged. This file contains accurate gap timing information to allow burning a CD that's as close as possible to an identical copy of the original from the disc-based files.
> Do you download music? If so, what's the rough percentage between ripping original CDs and uploading streaming music?I don't have a legal source of lossless music, and even if I did, I'm unconvinced that whoever rips them uses the same care that I do when I rip my own.
I'm running an APL AKM DAC based Denon 3910 redesigned Universal DVD/CDP/SACD.Recently I had a digital input board installed.
My downstairs neighbor and I have a 3 terabit MAC G5 ITunes server in our basement. I have an IBook running ITunes connected through the server via Airport. I have about 600 CDs and I'm busying transferring them all (apple lossless) to the Server: much work ahead.
On order, I have a keyspan ITunes remote control that will allow me to control playlists and songs via an USB interface connected directly to the IBook.
Finally, - I have APL's prototype USB to digital board/cable running USB out of the IBook into the digital input board on the APL player.
With the player, I can switch between inputs on the fly to test the quality of ITunes vs. CD. In most cases I, (and just about everyone how has heard this), has had a very difficult time telling the difference between CDs and ITunes. After careful and close listening, I seem to detect a little more fullness and richness to the bass running ITunes: but a little less bass definition and detail. This is not always easily discernable. The AKM DACs are pretty amazing IMO and having the option of playing both CDs and ITunes is pretty awesome.
(Also, - I have a pretty crappy, {stock Denon}, RCA type, digital cable coming from the USB/Digital box to the input of the APL).
Right now, I cannot foresee replacing the majority of my CDs. I like the option of having both. But, I have already built up a small pile of CDs that I don't listen to as often, or am not super fond of, for sale. I also have the option of hooking up my digital satellite TV receiver to the APL as well.
I have not really set up a lot of unique playlists in ITunes yet as I'm focusing on the transfers; but that comes next.I don't know what the future will bring, but I may find myself selling a lot of CDs, but I know that I'll keep SOME favs around, plus my SACDs....
Cheers,
"Not necessarily beautiful, but mutated"
Sorry,I didn't answer a lot of your questions....
I'm doing both. Thus far, a permanent switch is not a good idea IMO. It would be if I could buy Apple Lossless music over the Internet and download the (legal) .mp4 files to my ITunes/IBook. I wouldn't give up the CD, or SACD, as I have to buy them anyway to dump down to the HD, and/or the quality of SACD is still superior with the APL.
Since I've already purchased the APL, I have lots of options.
Retail costs here are difficult to nail down.
Also, the AKM DAC based player is an integral part of my system, (it's also my preamp), the only way that I could foresee a complete switch is if Apple Lossless were available over the Internet, one could "rent" video files and download them to ITunes, there was an AKM based tubed DAC, sans Transport, and (less importantly), if SACD was available...
Cheers,
"Not necessarily beautiful, but mutated"
sorry- I jumped ahead of your post about your source stuff...
Mac or PC based digital versus "high-end" digital, purely "home audio" equipment reproduction systems (sampling rates, bit depth etc..)? I own and run my own very small PC and electronics service company(mostly PC now), and the encoding methods etc. that I am aware of in the "WWW" arena of audio (MP3's, MP4's etc), certainly using PC based technology (soundcards and mainboard technology, switching power supply noise etc..) won't touch my "audio system" in sound quality.. I don't service or know much about MAC stuff, but the technology must be virtually identical? Plastic CD-ROM or DVD drives as source hardware? These are not attacks.. I'm interested in what type of hardware you use and why? The MP3 and MP4 encoding formats cannot compare to current "audio system-based" CDs, SACDs etc.?? I'm interested in your opinions etc...
What caveats would you express, if any?
This isn't an exhaustive list by any means, but I'll throw a couple in here. Maybe others can add to it.1) For USB, watch the maximum cable length! For standard USB computer ports, 5 meters is the maximum cable length. This can be increased with powered USB hubs, but some googling is necessary to determine what kind of lengths they support.
2) Because of (1) above, if USB is used, the computer will probably end up in the same room as the audio system. One should have a computer with components selected according to low acoustical noise (fans, etc). This requires researching the various "silent PC" sites, and is usually more expensive than standard PC equipment. Another choice would be a Pentium "M"-based laptop with some kind of external hard drive. My Dell 600m is as quiet as a mouse.
3) If you're using a network device such as a Squeezebox or Roku Soundbridge, you'll need to be familiar with setting up a home network. If you have your own home, wired for Ethernet, you're home free. But if you live in an apartment like me, you'll be stuck with wireless and the possibility of dropouts. Some have reported dropouts from turning on microwave ovens, though I haven't experienced this. I have had occasional glitches though.
The obvious caveat would be the crash-prone nature of hard-drives which mandates a backup. That's neither here nor there but simply part of having anything valuable on a CPU, whether it's my website, someone's book-keeping or a large library of music files.The second one would be the sheer amount of time involved to transfer/import the data if you already have a large CD library.
The third one is that, personally, I like access to the inserts and liner notes which, yes, could be imported as well but that's even more work - scan, save as a gif file, attach to the audio file...
The fourth is that, for my kinda music, I'd probably rarely use the streaming upload feature which I imagine is a core appeal for having a CPU-based digital front-end. Neither am I looking to go mobile and "put my music in my pocket" so to speak.
So for my type of listener, with a large existing collection of CDs and a truly superior "traditional" digital front-end, the only advantage would be convenience - to create playlists and essentially enjoy a 600-carousel-or-larger CD player without the clunky breaks between loading CDs. That, I admit, would be cool and something I could see myself actually doing/using.
But the sheer amount of time required to import all the data in the first place; losing the liner notes... that's what I find rather unattractive.
However. If I could get equivalent or close-to performance to my monster Zanden separates from a hard-disk based rig, for a lot less cashish, that'd be something to write home about in terms of recommending it to sane 'philes on a realistic budget and who are "starting out" building a software library rather than already own a monstrous one. Like my colleagues in the press, I often get asked what to buy...
At present, I'm simply curious to learn about the technical issues separating magnetic and optical data retrieval before we in the press become guilty of launching a new myth - that HD is inherently superior if, in fact, it isn't.
You know, the "there's no invocation of error correction with hard-drives". "There's no jitter". Etc etc. Pretty soon, S/PDIF Redbook could look like the boogieman without any more reason than a surface grasp of what's *really* going on. I'll try to talk to some engineers who understand these matters on a profound level in the hope of learning enough to present it on my site.
Frankly, this is completely beyond my ken so I need all the help I can get on this subject. But remember the whole upsampling craze and how much BS surrounded it? It'd be too bad if the same thing happened again now with HD music servers -:)
Srajan, give me a call at your earliest convience as I may be able to help you understand things a little better. I don't claim to have all the answers but I have done my homework.
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