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I figure I heard about 60-70% of the rooms. Many had me scratching my head wondering what these people were trying to do. Attract or repel potential customers.
This was my third hi-fi show. RMAF04 and Chicago HiFi99 being the others. It is amazing to me how few systems at these shows are interesting/listenable to me.One of my several systems is an old Fisher pp-el84 console integrated amp hooked up to a/d/s monitors from the 80s using a first generation Toshiba DVD player. This is in a guest room. That modest system sounds better to me than 80-90% of what I hear at these shows. I don't really get why so many systems sound so bad at these shows.
I've had the same experience with the many home audiophile systems I've heard.In my experience a SE845 amp with high sensitivity direct radiator speakers OR a tractrix horn system with low power SETs sound the most to my liking. I do like some PP tube amps and some SS amps but for me, if you get a highly optimised SET amp coupled with an appropriate speaker system, you get to the promised land in this hobby.
I did like however, some of the large SS systems I heard at the show. Basically I'm a tube guy but at least half of the systems that impressed me at this show were SS. I could hear the SS nasties but at least the systems sounded "alive".
If you insist on low power tube amps(anything under 15 watts), stick to horns please. Front tractrix please. Or find a monitor speaker that sounds "big" with modest tube power like my old a/d/s monitors. Supplement with a sub if the room needs it.
Powerful SS amps on big speakers can sound quite good as shown by a few rooms at this show, but to me they are still missing that magic. Some are just plain harsh. The money they charge for most of these systems is insulting as well.
I can see how some of the big boys can make a ton of money off of the less than bright folks with lots of cash. Some of their systems do sound lively and the geniouses that inherited their fortune or otherwise lucked into it believe it's related to the cost of the system.
Now to be more constructive... good sounding rooms for me included, in no particular order, Bastanis, ElectronLuv, Welborne, Avantgarde, MBL, Eben, Herron, VonSchweikert, Avalon, Genesis. The Avantgarde, Eben, and Herron rooms impressed the most. That's twice I've enjoyed a Herron room. First time for the Avantgardes(heard several other occassions)and the first I had even heard *of* the Ebens, much less heard them.
I did not hear any modestly priced systems that did much for me, yet I am obviously of the opinion that you do NOT need to spend a lot to achieve great sound. A friend said the Usher room sounded great with modestly priced components.Can't remember the name but there was a room at last years RMAF that had a pair of monitor speakers, an integrated SS amp, and cables all included for $1500 that, again, sounded better than 80-90% of what I hear at these shows.
Also, the RivesAudio room acoustics seminars were well worth the time and I highly recommend you visit their site(rivesaudio.com)and educate yourself on this extremely critical part of our hobby/profession.
You are spinning your wheels unless you understand how to get the most out of your room and optimising speaker placement. It is indeed as they said, half of the battle.
Overall, I consider the time and effort going to these shows well spent. I come away feeling better about my own systems and learn several helpful things at every event. There should be more of the educational presentations/seminars at these shows. In the future I will attend them more for those events than listening to systems.
Anyway, that's my impression. YMMV.
Follow Ups:
"Can't remember the name but there was a room at last years RMAF that had a pair of monitor speakers, an integrated SS amp, and cables all included for $1500 that, again, sounded better than 80-90% of what I hear at these shows."That setup you described from last year's show was from Odyssey Audio. Klaus makes some high-value and great sounding products. I own the Odyssey Stratos Extreme power amp.
Everything was awful on Friday, better on Saturday, and best on Sunday. I was very impressed with the expensive Von Schweikert imaging, although the sound is not what I could live with. The Zu speakers got to be excellent on Sunday as did the Exemplars, Tannoys, and Bastanis, although I hope the bass can be improved in a better room. I also thought the little Acapellas on Sunday were quite good. I am, of course, characterizing the sound in rooms with these speakers. Certainly the associated equipment was also involved.I was struck by the improvement in the VRS hard drive system. Its software is very user friendly and the sound, again on Sunday, was quite good.
Finally, I have to say how impressed I was with the Eminent Tech. fan subwoofer. All you got to hear was test tones, but wow the walls actually moved at 5 Hz. Up to 40 Hz, I would not be surprised were this unit to dominate the market.
These guys have to accomplish in one or two days what takes you many months to do in your home. Not surprisingly many rooms never reveal their potential.
I came away from RMAF 05 worn-out but happy. Nothing at any price sounded as "live" as the piano in the reception area, or the band playing out by the record sellers. Not the MBL room, not the lovely multichannel demo by Mike Pappas and Ray Kimber. But the best let me kind of forget all the technical bits and enjoy the music for it's own sake. Everything seemed to have it's particular sonic colorations, and some were pretty blatant, but this did not necessarily preclude my sense of musical enjoyment.I lent a brief hand at the Welborne Labs room on Saturday, so I suppose I should let others critique that. I never was much at sales, so this year, I mostly kept my mouth shut, played music, and if someone had a question, they could ask. Man, now I want a Shelter 501 cartridge like Ron's.
Electron Luv/Dowdy Llama. I'm not sure what those wild electronics remind me of, but they're great tongue-in-cheek works of art.
Avantgarde Duos sounded a bit smoother and less peaky than ones I'd heard before, but I'm not sure it's an improvement, just "different".
Lowther America, with their beautiful Terry Cain-built horn. Not a lot of top end, but what a really likeable speaker that is.
DIY Hifi Supply w/Bastanis speakers making some fine tunes at a bargain basement price. I could take or leave the silver hammertone paint.
Zu (as in zucable.com). Could it be? Marketing SET-friendly speakers to the 30-and-under crowd? About time someone did that.
Cain & Cain. Sonics seemed so-so at best, but I applaud them for playing real music from a band I've never heard of, whose members are maybe 20 years younger. Ooh, they had a baby Wavac. I wonder if Cain & Cain will build me a shelving unit like the one they had at the show.
David Berning: Very interesting OTL amps but the room was pitch black.
Audio Unlimited: My favorite AU room was the one with Air Tight electronics and Tannoy speakers.
Naim had the audacity to bring only tiny stand-mounted speakers, so they had no really low bass, but what there was sure sounded good to me.
North Creek Music/North Acoustics were also using Naim for source and power (entry level too!). Their new hybrid ribbon speaker seemed to be having some issues, but it's voiced similarly to my North Creek Okara IIs which I'm real fond of. Definitely worth a closer look.
Moscode kind of disappointed me. I don't know what I was expecting, maybe the smell of incense, or company staff clad in silk kimonos. Instead, it was all kind of ordinary.
Was Song Audio who had micro desktop tube amps on display in your choice of pink or green! I really wanted to take one home, but they wanted $1K for it.
Can't comment too much on their sonics, but I thought the fit 'n finish of the Usher Audio and Eastern Electric electronics were looking mighty fine.
I wish Madisound would set up working demos of the BK-16 horn kit. They also had a new bookshelf speaker built around a Seas coaxial driver too. They were "considering" offering a fully finished cabinet to go with it. The sample done in light maple looked great.
MBL speakers reminded me of something out of a Fritz Lang's Metropolis. Wow, mirror-smooth cocobolo wood too. Not sure I'd like the sonics on a daily basis.
Can't remember who it was that had the Atma-Sphere OTL amps, but IIRC, sonics were good.
Someone had Thor electronics and horns, but was demoing with a Sonic Impact amp. It sounded pretty good for a cheap amp, in the same way an iPod sounds okay playing uncompressed audio: Smooth, fairly clean, some detail, but not terribly exciting. (I like my iPod for other reasons). Not sure what the point of the SI demo was.
your post is a great one. I for one am also amazed at the show sound. Many of us read quite a bit and then get to a show and are really perplexed at the audiophile quality sound rather then the musical lifelike sound that should be there.Ill never forget walking into the kharma room a few years ago on a press day. With no else in the room my jaw dropped at the sterility and harhness. I had read wonderous things about this brand and was literally flabbergassted at how clincial sounding this room--and many others--was. contrast eg the odesssy, blue circle, classic sound and vtl rooms. Which sounded great.
I for one would like to hear what some found were the bad rooms. Enough of the its the room excuse. I have heard vintage electronics in garages sound pretty good if they do musicality right. Hey if someone made the trek to denver as was disaapointed at the sound or at least sound per dollar asked, let us know!!!!
I did not proof my post sorry. I was not at the RMAF this year. And the kharma reference was to the nyc show a few years back at the waldorf.
I didn't go, but several of my friends did. They apparently liked the Herron and Von Schweikert rooms a lot. One of my friends said that the MBL room sounded pretty bad. I like some of the things that MBL speakers do--particularly dynamics and impact--but they have several "flaws" that have always steered me away from them: (a) A mildly diffuse sound; (b) require TONS of power to drive them adequately; (c) the sound tends to collapse at low volumes; and (d) IMO, the bass doesn't integrate well with the rest of the speaker. My friend's comments about the room tend to echo my observations. YMMV, of course. There are a lot of things to love about the speaker, too.
I was astonished.This was my first show and was left with lingering questions...am I deaf? Is this practice of listening to audio truely THAT subjective? IMHO there were a couple of great rooms, a few good ones, many awful ones(dry, or edgy, or lifeless, or, or, or...), and a handful of truely abominable rooms.
What astonished me was where I was personally ranking much of this highly touted gear that I was finally hearing for the first time. To lead with some perspective, I thought the Avantgarde Duos with the little Thor amp, Thor pre and dac, and Oracle player was awesome. Even though it was a CD front end it was heads above the competition, the digital edge was not offensive and if I was a parameterizing type of listener I would say they were all lights out impressive. The music was alive and I kept coming back to enjoy it. 30W Thor PP-EL34 on a 103db speaker? No problem! Dead, dead quiet. These amps have always impressed me when I've heard them.
This was in great contrast to many rooms with big speakers, big SS amps, and very big turntables that sounded DEAD. I went back to one particular room three times because first, I couldn't believe what I was hearing, and second, I had to make sure it wasn't the music selection. How can a big three way, 2 woofer floorstander powered by an SS behemoth spinning a great Billie Holiday cut be so devoid of life...it was a joke! It did not fare any better with music that had a baseline.
A few rooms I found literally offensive. Not only was the sound horrid but combined with the asking price of this gear it made me sick to my stomach. I'm talking about statement speakers and amps here. The two I have in mind were both SS systems with digital front ends...one just made awful noise, the other went a step further and hurled awful noise at you mercilessly. The components of the latter system are SO highly regarded and SO expensive, that the experience forces me to conclude that I am surely walking to a different beat. What I heard being barfed at me was not music. Bad analogy...one would have to barf razor blades to get a better picture.
For a system with a big, tough to drive speaker mated with SS electronics and digital I felt the smaller Avalon room(BAT electronics) was decent. There was good weight and I found the sound least offensive in this class.
I thought the ESP room produced some excellent music. They were driven by some very high priced kt88(6550's?) amps but was truely the listening oasis amongst the small roomed systems. Also very nice I thought, was the VPI/shelter, Cayin, Harbeth rooms. Yes, they were having a little trouble with the bass hump in the small rooms but the smooth, warm, detailed, lively music was a standout.
I almost forgot....the Tannoy room was great! They had these big single driver boxes that looked like they belonged in your grampa's house. They were using a TT that I'd never seen before, I heard later it may have been a transrotor? but I haven't been able to verify. Whatever it was the combination with the tannoys was simply excellent.
Kharma room...hmmm, am I allowed to diss a fellow Kharma? Sure, why not...I am an owner of the old relic 1.0Ce, which everyone knows is pathetically inferior to the take all comers 3.2598365 crm enigma silver streak, super-speaker. Well, mated with their SS amps(which given their diminutive size must be made of the densest material known to mankind) that speaker sounded dry and lifeless. Oh, it did it's clarity thing, but the sound was too ethereal for me. To think I even considered trading "down".
I'm interested in hearing what others who were there think about the VRS. I've heard the VRS hard drive player before, and at this show it was in 3 or 4 rooms(one was forgettable due to a strange looking, but beautifully built speaker that lacked tranparency) and my suggestion is that no CD spinning system can match it. The VRS lacks a considerable amount of CD glare to my ears and sounds quite smooth.
Lastly the ARS speakers seemed pretty good with 2x845 art jotas per channel. Unfortunately, with a digital front end and the tendency to be turned up WAY TOO LOUD, it was not easy to perceive their potential. This disease, causing one to turn up the volume beyond what the room and/or the speakers could take, infected more than a few demonstrators.
All in all a worthwhile, eye opening experience. I have lost all of the stereo rag induced anxiety over the latest and greatest hifi prooduct designed especially for the removal of copious amounts of green from my wallet. Aside from chasing down a decent quad of xf1 mullards I think I'll go back to listening to some music, thank you very much.
My first show. It made me aware that my relatively modest system is actually pretty darn good. Roman Audio speakers apparently are no longer being made, and I feel lucky to have a pair. I didn't hear anything that sounded better, way louder maybe, but not better. If I was buying speakers today, I'd get Odyssey Loreleis, or on the detailed end of the spectrum but for twice as much, Salk HT-3s. Best sounds I heard. Might throw in some of the Tylers in there two. Three outstanding owner-operators, also, Klaus, Jim Salk, and Ty.
For clarification, the Salks aren't twice as much as the Loreleis. The HT3 base price is $4000 while the Loreleis are $2700
I totally agree with your observations. Many of the rooms were so loud I had to run. These guys are supposed to be on top of their game so they can shine, yet they seemed to have no clue that loud booming music in these small rooms was offensive. One exception has to be Audio Unlimited's various presentations, big and small rooms.
One exhibitor best said it with a sign on the door stating "Our door is closed because our neighbors are playing loud, we are playing refined." The standouts for me were several of the rooms that had very acceptable sounds, but also were very friendly, and accomodating such as Morningstar audio/Eastern Electric, and the Black Diamond Racing Cones/Encore Performance Recordings. These guys gave demonstrations that few others were willing to do, putting their products up against live sounds (Small instrunments).
I enjoyed the Acoustic Sounds Cayin kit. Great bang for the buck. On the first day of the show I wanted to purchase their A-50T/EL-34 integrated show sample, and the Cayin distributor said he would indeed sell same to come back at show's end. I did so, but the Acoustic Sounds guy had a case of amnesia, coming up with some excuse that was not too convincing. I'm now trying to decide if I want to send my hard earned their way.
All in all a great show. G-d willing I'm coming back next year.
I have to agree with you, most systems were very "detailed" translated to bright. And if I hear one more "drum" cd or record, I will scream. I'm biased, but I think my Spendor/Mac system put most too shame. I did enjoy the smaller Genisis ($15K) being driven by the Genisis tubed integrated at 60W ($3850). Soundstage champ. The horns are not my thing, I don't get it, so I have to disagree with you on that one. Speaking of Odessy, did you hear the $1500. "Picture" speakers?? They sounded great. The Gallo room was disappointing, they were demoing their new single eye balls with a sub, instead of the flagship everyone wanted to hear. Pure marketing and it sounded too close to Bose for me. Yuk. I got a couple of decent CD's too from the vendors. Can't wait till next year.....
You said, "Can't remember the name but there was a room at last years RMAF that had a pair of monitor speakers, an integrated SS amp, and cables all included for $1500 that, again, sounded better than 80-90% of what I hear at these shows."That was Odyssey Audio, Klaus Bunge's company. He was there last weekend. Too bad you missed him. He was showing his Lorelei speakers and Stratos amps this year. System complete w/ preamp goes for around $4000. Based on German designed stuff that retails for four or five times that in Europe. That $1500 system is still available, I believe. Still relatively unknown, Odyssey is one of THE great companies in hi fi.
Anyway, the Lorelei based system also beat most of what was at the show - and at a fraction of the big bucks audiophiles are used to shelling out
Have a look at this, for the $1500 system:
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