|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
my two cents here is that Mac is still trading on the reputation it earned 30 years ago when it actually backed up its products (free Mac clinics etc) because they so seldom NEEDED it.Nowadays they can't get out of their warranty fast enough! Perhaps they suspect that their product is not very reliable now? A product line that when two weeks old is out of warranty does not fill me with confidence and would certainly give me pause before buying a used Mac. There was a day when buying a used Mac was considered a safe investment, not now though.
To be fair, does Mac offer warranties for used gear purchased from Authorised Dealers? If not, I do not and will not ever have an interest in Mac gear. The company is a but a shadow of its former greatness.
When I once questioned Bryston on their tranferable warranty, asking them why they allowed such a thing, their answer was "What has quality got to do with who owns it? The product is either good or it isn't." Bryston is well known for protecting their dealers but they don't do it by screwing the consumer. Instead they watch and punish DEALERS that try to cheat. What a refreshing concept.
Follow Ups:
I do not really understand what all the fuss is about. I am a McIntosh-owner, and yes, I would prefer the warranty to be transferable. McIntosh has chosen another policy - as have 99 per cent of high end companies. You don't like, you buy sth else. As for McIntosh's reputation being not what it was - the guys saying that seem to have lived in the bush for the last couple of years. McIntosh has, in fact, renewed its reputation with excellent products, reviews - and sales. As far as building quality is concerned: Compare a McIntosh that was built 15 or 20 years ago with any new Mac, and you'll see that any new unit is built to higher standards. That has not only happened to Mac-products, to be sure. Take a look at the first Mark Levinson-products, and todays models. I think a lot of nostalgia is involved here that is not backed up by the facts.
What do you mean by "get out of" the warranty? The warranty is what it is, nothing more, nothing less. If a product breaks down two weeks after the warranty expired, then it is out of warranty. What is unethical about that? If you want a lifetime warranty, you can buy products that offer one. You can buy Bryston, they have a 20 year transferable warranty. You pay for that warranty when you buy the product. It's all pretty simple, I don't see how anyone can blame a company for sticking the the deal they made. Those who complain here seem to be looking for a free lunch.
Here's one that's been listed for about a week- can't tell if the warranty is included with the unit- anyone know??? :-)
Does anyone think that a warranty is implied here? Anyone want to call out the ebay dogs on this?
That pretty strongly states that once money changes hands and the unit is shipped their relationship is finished.
Just a basic question. If it was never used or turned on how did he get those blue lights to shine in the photo? Why would someone buy this and never open or use it. This I suspect crosses the line into a misrepresentation but not a type that Mc would be interested in. As for Mc interfering, this is being represented as a 2nd owner seller and acquired in original sale somewhat more than 12 months ago. More removed from the warranty than in Ethan's case. Another case of the grey area where the law operates.
McIntosh's warranty is no different than most companies. I think these threads are going off on tangent. The issue is whether McIntosh is doing the public a service by requesting sellers of what may be considered warrantable units to clarify that the units do not qualify for a warranty from McIntosh pursuant to the terms and conditions of the McIntosh warranty. The answer is both yes and no. For sales that infer the unit may have a warranty in the hands of a 2nd owner, the answer is yes. This would fall into the misrepresentation or fraud in the inducement category. As for the ad Ethan placed, provided what he posted is correct, McIntosh I think was too aggressive and needs to take steps to correct it. This is a grey area and hindsight is many times the only way to define where something falls within it. The grey area is what he paractice of law is all about.
Mr. Levy you possess a somewhat generous nature in saying McIntosh was too "aggressive" (lovely word that has taken on a very specific meaning in the USA). The McIntosh representative was simply dead wrong if the text of the ad was what Ethan posted. (BTW, I have very little doubt that the text posted is not the one from Ebay).
Clearly wrong. In our society only a judge can make that call. You have an opinion as well you and each should as a citizen but only a judge has the power of making the final call in the question. FWIT, I would rather represent Ethan in front of the judge that Mc in thos matter - less work to get the judge to agree I theorize. As for the term agressive, it is an informal term of art meanign that the position in closer to the black (bad outcome) edge of thegrey area of the law than the white. The law will generally allow you to be a bit of a pig but will generally slap you if you try to be a hog.
Isn't it true though that the majority of manufactures have similiar limitations of non-transfer of warranties?
In these Mcintosh threads people seem to act as if Mcintosh is a small boutique audio shop committed to quality at every level. Let's please remember that Mcintosh is part of a large corporate entity. They are essentially the same as Sony, Marantz, Denon, Pioneer, etc, but more expensive and of better quality. Why would we expect to find point to point wiring under the hood and custom stepped attenuators? It's upscale mass market stuff. Andy why would their warranties be any different than any other company like those listed above? 3 years is pretty standard.
Actually in terms of volume and revenues, McIntosh is a boutigue firm in contrast to those you've mentioned. It is a subsidiary of a holding company as are many companies owned by Harmon International and others. Each company stands on its own. In terms of dollars, total Mc revenues probably don't exceed 1 week of Sony's.
still pissed from the "potted" drivers that are "not as visually appearing" that Energy has given me to replace a failed driver that has "glue defect(s)" in my $3000CDN plus speakers. The drivers actually are all bent up, scratched, and dented in the back! At least Mac would care if their warranty parts look like junk and they probably would not give out re-manafactured parts that are of sloppy, poor and astonishingly ugly workmanship.
I would be ranting at this as well. Energy is not a small hackneyed - they are relatively huge. The stupid thing about your situation is that a driver itself is not a very costly item for these guys. I can understand if it's an old model and they don't have a replacement so they use a new one perhaps - but then they SHOULD be keeping the parts for the life of the warranty or 7 years or whatever the law deems.If I put out a 3k speaker and it had a serious problem i would be completely embarassed and offer to replace the entire thing for free.
It is precisely why McIntosh is going to take a huge sales beating in these threads and why Energy might here as well. I remember a review from Hi Fi Choice of an Energy speaker that said it had to be replaced or something was broken on it. That kind of build is not inspriring.
I feel sorry for you because that is a LOT of coin - at least to me.
I remember my 1996 grand amp my first new car(well 1 year old) and the thing was a complete disaster...in for repairs 6 times in 14 months and went through two break jobs and I hadn't even hit 50,000 Kilometers. I finally traded it in for a Honda Civic Hatchback and said forget the power windows I just wanted something that would run.
3.5 years no problems and 30% still left on the break PADS. And this was an automatic too. 89,000,00Km.
They say you buy an average of ten cars in a lifetime...guess which company will NEVER get a sale from me - guess what story I always TELL -- this one. I'm not alone. People are finally figuring out that American cars are POS and now that Toyata passed the big three the word is spreading...you'd think GM would clue in...but still not...the current Grand Am is the same POS with more plastic to make it look different...same crap new package.
RGA---Fords are good cars. You tar all American cars with the same brush, that makes no sense. I dunno about GM and I suspect you don't know about Fords.
Escort which died at 100kilometers...even the seat broke so I had to sit sideays slanted. It was a 1990 and my friend who had a Hyundai pony raced me up a hill and BEAT me...Ok I can take a lot but to lose to a decade older PONY was just the final straw :)Crown Victoria is the car the police are complaining about because they're burning police alive due to their cheapout on gas tank protection...as if Ford hasn't had problems with this issue seemingly forever now they want to kill the cops as well.
Have you seen the Lemon Aid guide of the so called award winning Focus...go read it for a laugh.
And Dodge...these guys change all their models so fast so you'll forget it was them that built the last lemon.
Sorry but I had the 1996 lemon aid used car guide and exactly 2 GM's were recommended. The GM Sprint which was not made by GM but by Suzuki(same as the Swift) and the Camaro because they said even though you'll be dumping money into constantly fix it at least it offers a lot for a performance car on the relative cheap. Of course my friend's Camaro's roof always leaked and the door FELL OFF because GM used a cheap hinge - I see a lot with saggy doors.
Ford and Dodge may be better - but that isn't saying much. Of course reliability isn't the only reason to buy cars...and the Americans typically make nicer looking bigger vehicles with more raw power - which may make them nicer highway/freeway cars.
it was in hi fi choice. it had been manufactured with the wires inside the cabinet crossed!! i thought at the time that this must have been a misteake by the reviewer becuase of my perception of Energy as a high quality product. It is a very well sound engineered product but just very poorly manufactured and the company is run by people who do not understand anyone here. Would you want you're $3K speakers to have re-manufactured drivers that are dented, scratched, bent? There are other manufactures making very good $3k speakers, arent there????
Are they still under warranty? I would go to your dealer and rant that this is just not acceptable. I know they often try and bully customers but frankly these stores SHOULD be bullying the manufacturer. Soundhounds in Victoria is a big high end store and the manufacturer NEEDS them more than Soundhounds needs the manufacturer. It behooves them to do the best they can for the customer because if they fix this for you chances are when you upgrade you'll go them...otherwise you find another dealer. AND another brand.I don't get Energy on this. One problem perhaps with big companies is they don't care. The smaller guy NEEDS word of mouth and doesn't want bad mouthing. McIntosh is so big this thread isn't going to atter to them...but if this was say a discussion about nOhr or some other small internet company it could cripple them a fair amount.
If you still have the warranty try going into an A&B sound or some other outlet selling Energy. Explain it to one of them and say you're not getting anywhere with your dealer. They may help you out because it's a chance for them to get into your notebook of future shopping.
Of course this requires intelligent dealers...but there's bound to be one in your area.
Thank you for contacting McIntosh and for your comments.The McIntosh non-transferable warranty is not a new policy as many contributors to these message boards think. Our warranties for electronics (3-years), speakers (5-years) and car audio (2-years) are the same as they have been since 1996. This is when they were last reviewed and updated. However, these established McIntosh warranties have recently been brought into the spotlight as the result of misrepresented internet sales. Many, many consumers purchase McIntosh equipment via the internet which is fine. However, the problems arise when McIntosh products sold over the internet are listed as new or never opened with warranty. This just isn't true as these units are not new, they've been purchased once, and often include text that the warranty is transferable, the unit is still under warranty or assumed so by omission. McIntosh will respect the warranty of any of our products from the original purchaser when purchased at an Authorized McIntosh Dealer. Our Authorized Dealers are conscious of the McIntosh warranty policy as it is contained within the McIntosh dealer agreement. To alert the public McIntosh posted consumer notices on our web site within the Service area, as a link from each product page and appears as a pop-up window upon entering the website. This was done 19 months ago. It's amusing to read from the audioasylum link that McIntosh should post this information on our web site. Well, we have, and it's been there in black and white, in several locations for 19 months. The information is also printed on our literature for the past 2 years.
All we have ever asked from those who choose to sell McIntosh products via the internet, phone, classified ads, etc., is that they clearly state, for the benefit of potential buyers, that the warranty is non transferable. You can't imagine the number of buyers who after an internet purchase approach us under the assumption that their product is under warranty and we must tell them that it is not and direct them back to the seller. We're not implying that all sellers are misleading but there are those who create issues for manufacturers and buyers. This is where our attorney steps in and has in this case. This isn't the first instance where our attorney and e-bay, etc., suspended an auction. This is only done when legal issues and implications are compromised. However, this is the first instance where we've received so much attention for it.
Thank you again for your e-mail. We've been inundated with comments and are responding to them. Anyone is welcome to phone the factory and speak to any one of us, including the president, if they wish to. Our president, Charlie Randall, has personally answered several e-mails regarding this and invites anyone to phone him directly at 800-538-6576 / 607-723-3512.
Sincerely,
S. A. Goff
Marketing & PR Manager
McIntosh Laboratory, Inc.------------------------------------------
My Inquiry to McIntosh
Subject: Roiling Controversy on Audio AsylumThere is an immense amount of back-and-forth discussion on the Audio Asylum
website about an e-mail message that was allegedly sent by one of your
attorneys, a Mr. Wayne Cooper, to someone who had listed a "like new"
amplifier on eBay. The person who got this message claims that he was asked
to specifically mention that his amp did not qualify for warranty coverage
from McIntosh, even though he never said (or even implied) that it did.
When he refused, your attorney supposedly contacted eBay and had them delete
the ad.I have no axe to grind one way or the other, but I'd like to know if this
story is true. So far there have been nearly 400 messages on a Audio Asylum
site about this situation, with no end in sight.Did one of your attorneys in fact try to coerce someone into changing their
ad to say "no warranty" or words to that effect? If so, why? I've always
heard that McIntosh gear is of the highest quality; why would you refuse to
honor a warranty just because a nearly-new item has been re-sold?As I said, I have no axe to grind on this ... but given all the bad
publicity you're receiving on this, you might want to offer a full and clear
explanation of your warranty policy, and post it on Audio Asylum.
Ignoring Mr. Cooper and their published restrictions, in practice, does Macintosh really deny warranty repair obligations using this lame loophole?"You can't imagine the number of buyers who after an internet purchase approach us under the assumption that their product is under warranty...we must...direct them back to the seller."
Yikes! What a way to build brand layalty. Looks like a huge "unimaginable" number of their loyal customers are getting screwed over.
======However, these established McIntosh warranties have recently been brought into the spotlight as the result of misrepresented internet sales. =======What misrepresentation was made in Ethan's ad?
=======However, the problems arise when McIntosh products sold over the internet are listed as new or never opened with warranty.======Ethan's ad said neither(if his ad was posted accurately).
=======and often include text that the warranty is transferable, the unit is still under warranty or assumed so by omission. ======
Ahhhh! Assumed so by omission! WTFDTM? Fraud by omission? Then McIntosh must convince us that the buyer should reasonably expect that a USED, PRE-OWNED, OPENED AND PLAYED IN A SYSTEM component should have a WARRANTY that is TRANSFERABLE!
His question did not mention Ethan's names, and Mac's reply was speaking in general terms, not about any particular case. You guys are way too excitable.
Big Dave's email to McIntosh was pretty specific:========There is an immense amount of back-and-forth discussion on the Audio Asylum website about an e-mail message that was allegedly sent by one of your attorneys, a Mr. Wayne Cooper, to someone who had listed a "like new" amplifier on eBay.=========
While the answer was in "general terms", the question was quite specific! McIntosh surly would not have answered before checking with Mr. Wayne Cooper, so I am sure they had the specifics, just the specifics pretty weak.
Call him!!
Why are we supposed to assume, as Don T believes, that the average buyer does not know that used gear does not carry a warranty unless it specifically says so? (And often not even then.)Do we need to tell people that breathing water causes drowning in humans?
Then again....here is a thought...if people see enough lying ads about used gear that supposedly still has a warranty might they not believe that to be the case for the gear they are buying?
In fact, is it possible that Bryston's tranferrable warranty leads buyers to the mistaken belief that other companies are as capable and honorable as Bryston?
The fact that Bryston and everyone on these boards who is remotely knowledgeable of high end gear - usually when any of us recommend Bryston to someone we make note of the great 20 year transferable warranty. Gimmick or not if I'm deciding between two amps say a McIntosh and a Bryston -- I can tell you right now that if it's a close call that bloody warranty will push me to the Bryston.There is a reason that this amplifier maker in the highend probably sells the most.
It's up to the buyer to ask about the warranty...when I buy new from a store I ask about the warranty ALL THE TIME.
nt
"However, the problems arise when McIntosh products sold over the internet are listed as new or never opened with warranty."On a more tangential note, does the law require that a private party ad LIST any and all warranty info?
as regards those that say the product still has the warranty. And yes, I agree that Mac needs to protect themselves (since they are sure that their products can't be reliable enough to warrant to any but the first owner).But Ethann did not even imply a warranty.(If his post is honest. And I did see another ad by him...and no warranty was mentioned.) I think that they were over-zealous in the protection of themselves.
McIntosh doesn't NEED to protect themselves. They have a no tranferable warranty - Ethan didn't mention a warranty and even if Ethann LIED and said there IS a warranty it still has NOTHING to do with McIntosh.I don't see why they're paying a lawyer to lurk EBAY for stuff they SHOULD have nothing to do with. They sold it - they have NOTHING to do with it anymore and should have ZERO say about something that's not there's. I sold a Honda Civic 3 years ago - doi I have the right to tell the new owner how they can sell the car...did Honda have the right to tell me how I could have sold it?
I guess no one has explained to me why any of this is McIntosh's business.
Frankly chances are if it lasts 5 years it will last 30 years. The length of the warranty isn't so much my issue it's the control they're trying to impose which is a little bothersome.
It would be nice for McIntosh to answer why they need to be involved - I don't buy the protect the buyer response...it's none of their business...it's up to the buyer to protect themselves...if the seller LIES then you can sue the seller. I don't see the seller lying.
I still have a problem with WHY it is not transferrable, perhaps by a registering process. This is not some small audiophile company (even though many of those honor warranties to the second owner even though they say they don't).This was a company that made much of its fame on its supposed reliability and ever-lastingness. Then again, maybe it is just because I remember the old days. Maybe they no longer stress their reliablity? Perhaps they are relying on the American penchant for amnesisa?
Hmmm...their website does say "Elegance Strength Commitment". They didn't say who the "Commitment" was to......and "Strength" might imply reliability to some, though the word actually means nothing like that. "Elegance"...if you like the Retro industrial look, I suppose so. (I for one do like the industrial look!)
Hi,If you research the issue carefully you will discover one of the main reasons the original Mc company went into fiscal trouble and the eventual sale to Clarion was that the expense of the free work in the clinics was too high for them over a long period of time.
I was a participant in some of those clinics and they gave parts to restore old mc to 'like new' standards for free. This was not an insignificant expense when coupled with the test gear and the multiple people involved in traveling to the dealers and running the clinics. Any brand of gear brought in was tested for specs and it was free. Mc gear was fixed at the clinic for free if it had a problem. If it was not at a clinic it was a fee based repair, I seem to remember, so the clinics were always quite busy affairs and were for more than one day at some of the better dealers.
Long haul, no one can afford to fix things for free forever. Mc started in the late 40's and was sold in the lates 1980's so it was doing that for ~ 40 years. A little less free repair work might have lead to them still being an American owned company...
Just a thought from an industry watcher for the last 30 some years. I firmly believe the statement 'there is no free lunch.' I don't own Mc but consider it to be well made, whether the sound appeals to a person or not. Even with foreign ownership it is still made in the US, at least.
I worked at the #2 Mac dealer in the early 1970s, and had the priveledge of meeting Mr. Gow on several occasions. There are some things said in this thread that need correcting:1) Nothing --- absolutely nothing --- came close to the in-service field performance of Mac electronics. We kept notebooks filled with clinic results; they were the best sales tool we had, because almost every Mac piece came in performing flawlessly, and so much gear came in from other manufacturers working very, very poorly.
2) The Mac clinics were great money-makers for the dealers. No, there were no Mac 'sales'. Yes, many Mac pieces got traded in at clinics, and yes, dealers sold lots of everything during these crowded events.
3) The Mac clinics were not a big cost item for McIntosh, and I suspect could fairly be considered a revenue-producing item. (The later big-band live-vs-recorded demos were, however, but that's another story.) Remember, the clinics were not "service" events -- they were "Marketing" events, and were hugely successful in helping build the brand.
As an aside, to the person who commented about point-to-point wiring not being appropriate for mass-produced electronics, I suggest (s)he look inside any MR-71, C-22, or MC-75/275.
And all that said, it seems McIntosh could use another Gordon Gow right now.
But I don't recall much being done at the store(s) I knew to take advantage of the service clinic sales wise. Then again, I wasn't paying much attention to the business end of things in those days. I did, however, see my share of busted Mac gear (blown drivers, bad pots etc). Of course some units died from the simple fact that parts get old, like all of us.I also recall the factory rep saying (in the early 80's) that the Thresholds that he tested were always right on too. He said that they built the same way as Mac, in that the things could handle much more than their ratings. Add to that the use of mil-spec or better parts and you have the makings of a classic piece. History has proven him right on that one.
It would be great if Mac could bring the service clinics back again. That would be a great thing to revive the brand's reputation. From their current warranty policy I can only surmise that the corporate masters of McIntosh Labs no longer feels that the product is as robust as it formerly was. Pity, if true.
It may be because there were so many Macs that needed fixing! I remember the clinics, and quite a few of the Macs came in out of spec (I speak of amps and preamps here, of course it was to be expected that tuners would drift in those days. Their tuners were,nonetheless, awesome.)I often wondered why the dealer's sales staff did not take advantage of the clinics to sell more Mac products. They never timed a clinic with a "sale" or any other inducement to buy that day! Seemed like an incredible lost opportunity to me. I think Mac was too arrogant to take part in "sales"; you were supposed to pay top-dollar because it was Mac and that was that.
On another hand, Bryston has been doing the repairs for free for at least 30 years (I have never known anyone to pay for a Bryston repair...well except for the guy that poured his beer into the amp. They were a bit miffed at that. Dropping an amp down 5 flights of stairs would also be considered a warranty-breaker.) The 20 year warranty was something the marketing boys put on to at least advertise what they had been doing all along.
I seem to have two contradictory statements in two different posts here...one the "they seldom needed fixing" and the other that "so many needed fixing".The "seldom needed fixing" was from the point of view of the Mac representative; that is, what he would tell me was the case.
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: