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I'm refering to music -- or sound other sound content -- in the range of, say, 25Hz to 50Hz. Apart from pipe organ there are relatively few instruments that have actual notes in that range. Most significantly is the accoustic string bass whose lowest note is 42Hz, (I think). Among orchestral instruments, I understand the double bassoon goes lower, (30-something Hz?), but this is less commonly used.Many, many popular and well-regarded speakers don't go much below 50Hz, including my Magneplanar MMGs. Note the MMGs a flat to 50Hz and roll off sharply below that. Yesterday I got my PSB Subsonic 6 subwoofer hooked up (after being unable to use it for a few weeks). I connected my preamp directly to my main amp and thence to the MMGs without a high-pass filter. Note that my main amp is a Phase Linear 400 with upgrade power supply capacitors, and puts out 360 watts at 4 ohms with damping factor -- the point is that I'm getting all the bass the MMGs deliver. I also connected to preamp to the sub setting its low-pass at 50Hz. I noticed a lot of output from the sub notwithstanding supposedly few "notes" in the range below 50Hz: what's going on?
Classical orchestral music selections sounded much better, having much more "body", e.g. Rimsky-Korsakov's 'Scheherazade', 4th movement, on Reference Recording's RR-89CD. Same for jazz I listen to, e.g. Dave Brubeck "Time Out" on stereo SACD, track 3, "Take Five", where the drums sounded much more solid and real.
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I much prefer not having it at all than having a disbalanced low bass, out of focus, excessive or too earthquaking, which is a frequent presentation from many full-range speakers. Very few can do low bass making it as believable than the mid-high bass and the rest of the sound spectrum. And it's even rarer hearing a good low bass from a two-way plus sub system. I believe that it is due to bad room sonics in most of the cases, but unfortunately, also many speakers are flawed at the low bottom performance.
Just my opinion, as usual.AJ
This is not about the steady-state fundamental of the note/instrument,
which may indeed be limited to 40Hz or whatever.This is about the spectrum occupied by the act of playing the note: hitting, blowing, plucking, ... which, as the step or widened impulse function it is, occupies indeed "DC to light".
Simple math, but very very often completely overlooked.
Never been one to follow the rules (well ...), I've always assumed there is a benefit to having a wider frequency response then 20 to 20K.Some of my math teachers along the way have proven this out for me. If there is a basic frequency created from a complex source, it has harmonics. How those harmonics react to the environment are as much a part of the instrument as the performer using it.
Given that, why limit yourself with audio "blinders"?
Tom
One of my pet peeves- thinking of a note from a musical instrument as being defined by a single precise frequency. A note may be defined as 42 Hz or some other exact number, but on an instrument, especially a good acoustical one, there's a wealth of other sonic information present that must be conveyed for the recording to simulate the actual "note" as played by that instrument. There are harmonics above the principal tone, and subharmonics below it, and a good recording will contain them, plus the attack and decay of the note. Most people recognize these on a subconscious level, but they add a lot to the tone and perception of real music.
"There are harmonics above the principal tone, and subharmonics below it, and a good recording will contain them . . . ."So are you saying an instrument produces tones below the fundamental note played?
I thought that was impossible.
There are actually nodes on a violin string where you can play a harmonic (you don't press the string down all the way-just touch it and bow) and it will sound a subharmonic a full octave below the pitch of the open string's primary tone. There's *lots* of info in good instruments!As RBP says, this is what makes different instruments different- otherwise music would all sound like little beeps that comes outa computers. Check out the links on this thread- the sites put together by Paul C are incredible if you're really into this stuff.
When both instruments are playing "A" which the fundamental is very very close to 440hZ (depending on the tuning meathodology)...the only reason they sound like a f horn and clarinet is the harmonic content.You Sir are right!
Audio AsylumŽ Signature line: Hearing is believing.
But they are not easy to activate.Obviously speakers need to be able to reproduce them but that is not the end of the story as those speakers need to be carefully positioned. Sadly the best postion for great bass is rarely the same as to great imaging. I underline the suggestion of 2 subs -> better coupling to the room.
BUT, all the above is useless if the amplifier is soft at the bottom end as some are.
AND, if the CDP is not generating those low notes in the first place you can forget about throwing dollars at amps and/or speakers. I have been quite staggered at the bass improvement by the modifications done here to players. I have had 2 laserdisc and 3 CD players reclocked and modified and the bass improvement (among others) has been consistently obvious.
BUT, as RBP says, if it is not on the record, none of all the above is useful.
However, the musical pleasure gained from great deep bass is significant. It is the foundation to the music and is frequently there in the records, CD & LP (and LPs DO have significant bass, just as good as CDs). Without it there is a lack of balance and I often wonder if the "problems" some inmates detect in the sound from their setups is a result of this lack of bass & balance giving a tendency to shrillness.
John
Interesting times
I'm refering to music -- or sound other sound content -- in the range of, say, 25Hz to 50Hz. Apart from pipe organ there are relatively few instruments that have actual notes in that range.=Hello, it is so dependant on the recording and mastering of said work...wheather the infrasonics or even present in the signal. I for one...know many mastering engineers that put a carte'blanch filter at 35hZ and do not care. I on the otherhad, use a monitoring system that is flat to 20 and only a couple dB off at 17. I personally retain all the infrasonics in my work and yes, they were recorded (sans A/C Duct systems in the form of noise) then they will be there.
Most significantly is the accoustic string bass whose lowest note is 42Hz,
=Yes a four string upright low "e" is 42.7hZ. Played seldom open..but when the bass is played and the musician decides at certain times not to mute that string while playing, it has harmonics that go lower than 42.7 and adds to the overall "live affect"
(I think). Among orchestral instruments, I understand the double bassoon goes lower, (30-something Hz?), but this is less commonly used.
=A contra basson can go lower than 20hZ, although the fundamental is not thick and deep playing the low "F" the frequency of bassoon recording has a lot of mid and high frequency energy as well when played during the lowest register. The older /larger Puchner contra bassons can go below 14hZ actually..it is a "popping sound" in ensense.
=Many, many popular and well-regarded speakers don't go much below 50Hz, including my Magneplanar MMGs. Note the MMGs a flat to 50Hz and roll off sharply below that.
True, but you can tell when the low "e" of 42.7hZ is played on an electric bass and acoustic bass using them. Again, the recording, the mix, the mastering and the final manufacturing of the works to consumer are at play as well.
Yesterday I got my PSB Subsonic 6 subwoofer hooked up (after being unable to use it for a few weeks). I connected my preamp directly to my main amp and thence to the MMGs without a high-pass filter. Note that my main amp is a Phase Linear 400 with upgrade power supply capacitors, and puts out 360 watts at 4 ohms with damping factor -- the point is that I'm getting all the bass the MMGs deliver. I also connected to preamp to the sub setting its low-pass at 50Hz. I noticed a lot of output from the sub notwithstanding supposedly few "notes" in the range below 50Hz: what's going on?
=Many recordings, and all of mine contain infra sonics. It could be level matching that helped you hear it more..but it is there in many recordings, sometimes mistakes (like the blast of air on the "p" puff of a vocal mic, to an engineer not being able to monitor and track the lowe bottom due to infieor skills/monitors, experience and conditioning.Classical orchestral music selections sounded much better, having much more "body", e.g. Rimsky-Korsakov's 'Scheherazade', 4th movement, on Reference Recording's RR-89CD. Same for jazz I listen to, e.g. Dave Brubeck "Time Out" on stereo SACD, track 3, "Take Five", where the drums sounded much more solid and real.
=You feel the one sub is doing good things, you should try a pair..especially live recorded classical. In stereo low frequencies (dual subs) you experience phase cues of the actual space and this adds mush realism to the overall presentation. I dare say (but true) that a mono sub incorporated in a 2 channel system can do as much damage as it solves, due to the fact that these phase cues are essintially erased from reproduction...as a single mono sub cannot be in two different phase areas at the same time. You miss a lot of information that way. It would be prudent , since you like what is happening, to go to duul subs. Then your quest will be more fulfilled!
Audio AsylumŽ Signature line: Hearing is believing.
It seems totally valid to my amateur ear. "DC to light" as some have said!
Isn't it amazing what a little extra info down there does to the overall sound? It's like anything else, though. "A little heavy in the upper-mids", or, "a little lean in the high mids", etc. All kinds of little dips that can pejorate the overall sonic presentation.I am reminded of trying to perform an in-depth comparison between a speaker flat down to around 40-45 Hz versus a speaker flat down to around 30 Hz. After all is said and done, I feel like I don't even want to try making comparisons like that anymore. Like comparing high sensitivity horns to low sensitivity planars or something. The overall presentation is so strongly impacted that I don't trust my ability to keep my apples as apples and my oranges as oranges! But maybe that's a bit harsh :-)
Sounds like you figured it out for yourself, It's very important. A lot of the spatial cues from the recording venue are found down low. This also makes the high frequencies sound a lot better. The theory being, you need a balance, if you don't have low end extension you won't have high end extension. So if you are a fan of cymbals you need a sub.
Now you should be off to get another sub for stereo.
I'll need to shelve it for awhile while I look for some loose change, though.
Without the bass music is not complete. It's the foundation and to me when it's not there the sound is somewhat empty. I have no idea how some people could say they don't care about the bass. That's like saying they don't care for all of the music. Those bottom octaves change everything.
zipzap
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