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My budget is US500 and I have a Sony DVD player. Should I buy a DAC and feed it with my Sony DVD player or save some more money to buy a better CD player? Would my Sony DVD player hinder the performance of a good DAC?
Follow Ups:
Whatever he says is probably right. BTW, what's with this "nt". It means no text, and you have quite a bit of text.p.s. If you're going to ask JJ, I advise supplying an e-mail return address. He might not want to respond in public.
any dac will improve the player you have ,any
even a very simple dac like the bel canto dac 1 or a dpa will lift up at least one area of your system ,i repeat any dac
just for thr record removing the dac section of your player and putting it on isolation made of ruber for exemple will increase focus a little bit
just imagine if the dac had its own power supply for instance !!!
many of the hiend player employ this principal
good isolation from vibrations ,shielding from interferance and separate power supplies will improve things dramatically for a simple transport
as for the cables ,all you need is a well shielded coax with a true 75 ohm value
nt
Jitter is the biggest enemy of digital and both player and DAC play a part in minimising this. But as Rodney says, if the player is producing garbage, the best DAC money can buy will not eliminate it. It just will not add much more garbage to it.This has been driven home here in my search for a good CD changer, feeding the digital out into a Meridian 861 V3. Certainly much better than the internal DAC but still levels below the 800 player. I'm still hunting for the answer and am afraid there is not an acceptable one - the result of having a revealing system.
So, to answer your question I agree with others that few DVD players deliver the goods for fine music although it has been reported to me that some Marantz players are better. Whether or not they would be good enough for you only your ears can judge.
Generally dedicated players coupled to dedicated DACs give the best results and I do not agree that horrendously expensive digital cable is needed. However it all boils down to available finances so, in your situation I would first try out a Marantz player, and if that did not fit the bill, hunt around for a good DAC, maybe an ART DIO? BTW, in my hunt for a good CD changer I looked closely at the Sony ES series but have read many negative comments re soundstage etc so maybe your Sony is never likely to be the answer for nice music.
John C, just curious: In your search for the perfect changer, have you experimented with PCs, hard drives, high-quality sound cards, and external DACs? There seems to be some consensus here that computer-based transports can't match the best single-play units, but as you observe, the bar is somewhat lower for multi-disk players. I'd sure like to hear something authoritative.
No, I have not delved into this but am sceptical about the results. Reason - PC drives are not concerned with slight times scale aberrations (the fundamental cause of jitter), all they are concerned with it translating the stream of bits.Now Meridian use PC drives in their top line 800 BUT have a complex series of buffers to accurately time align the data. The results are impressive, particularly with upsampling in all 6 channels.
I have a CD ROM changer, now unused, that I guess could be adapted in similar way but I have no expertise at all in that area. It would be a fascinating challenge to do something with it but I guess the task is beyond amateurs.
BTW all my auditioning with the Marantz CC-4300 changer used the state of the art Meridian 861 V3 processor so the aberrations I detected were only due to the changer. Hence my initial reply that both are important.
in order for three elements to work ( transport/DAC/cable ), many many experiments are involved. Think, even just one digital cable can change the whole outlook. Personaly, I'm too lazy for this and the combo needs to be kick ass for me to put up with extra cable and a box.You can add relatively inexpensive Channel Island DAC and power supply for about 500 bucks, even then, you still need a decent digital cable. ok, this addition was an improvement over stock Sony dvd player (NS500) . But, some might disagree since many folks like the unit as is.
As far as DVD transport goes, so far, the ones I have heard to date all lack in dynamics and drive. I have to caviat some folks like this sort of sound.
I've seen several new universal players at CES, and some showed promise when played redbook cds. ( however, since they were used as a stand-alone, I'v no way of knowing how their transport fair compared to comparable CD transports )
My reco for you is save your money and get a decent stand alone cd player since my experience tell me good *digital* sound does not come cheap.
I went to the CES as well. We shoulda met up for a coffee or something.
If I go next year I'll post and see if anyone is going.
Overall I wasn't all that impressed with some of the rooms; not as much as I thought I would be. There were others that sounded quite nice. Even my wife (who is not even into this hobby) noticed that some systems were not too impressive, while others were good.
Rambling....
i have yet to hear a DVD used as a transport to compete with the best one-box players (and i have tried many).Use your Sony for its intended purpose - which is DVD - and save your money, look at the used market and purchase something that you do not need to 'tweek' in order for it to sound good.
Tweaking your present player will not improve it enough!!!
There are many decent players second hand players available near or above your price range that would be better.
More fundemantal changes with a transport than Dac's in my case (Especially in terms of bass quality ,low level resolution and "airyness")
I firmly beleive that if the first component in the chain is not optimal ,whatever you do after is like trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Linn Put it well , garbage in , garbage out.
Rodney Gold
how can you get a something from nothing if your source is not delivering?ja in warm with a slight breeze and rather sunny, Tucson, home of the snow birds of the north, AZ
(1) use 3 Chinese wooden chess (1.5" diameter, 0.5" height) to support the CD player, get wooden cone if you can afford to spend more
(2) put some heavy stuff (from books, paper weight, bowling ball, dumpbell whatever) on top of the CD player to dampen the vibration caused internally or externally
(3) use powerline filter on CD player AC sourcesfinetune the above tweaks and try to carefully hear any differences
if you can't hear the difference/improvement after you have done the above, congratualation, you don't need to buy an expensive transport/DAC
of course there are much more you can do if you open the case
the above tweaks will also apply on DAC
an expensive DAC will bring more obvious sonic improvements than an expensive transport
They are both important, but you already have a unit that is usable as a transport. So, it makes sense to spend your money on the best dac that you can afford. Later on, you can always,add a purpose built transport or more likely/logically a player that includes SACD and/or DVD-A. Your player won't hinder the performance, it just will not perform at the level of a better transport. In today's market, you can buy a decent new dac or a really good used dac with your budget. Don't be afraid to buy used, dacs are very reliable. Check out Audiogon, I took a quick look and immediately saw the one in the link below. If I needed a dac, I'd buy it. I don't know the seller and have no interest in the sale, just trying to be helpful.
One more thing [nt] means no text. Your post has text in it.
Jeff
I would think that it would have to be the DAC that would have the most impact on the Playback with the transport following like other's have mentioned.-----------
Best DAC's for a low price that I have searched for:ART DAC--Stock($130)
Channel Island--($350?)
ART DAC---Modified($400+)
Camelot---($600?)
Bel CantoIf anyone can add to the list it would help and the prices would vary.
I take it you have never had the opportunity to hear the differences in transports. I went from a CAL DX-1, used as a transport, to a CAL Delta, the improvements were obvious. More refinement and detail, were two of the benefits. I replaced the CAL Delta with a PS Audio Lambda transport and the improvement was surprising. The bass tightened up, CDs that sounded bloated, now had clean, tight bass. I'm not saying that the dac isn't important and my recommendation is for the original poster to start there. I am saying that the transport is important and using any old CD or DVD player as one is not going to compare favoribly with a quality purpose built transport. If the poster is smart, he will jump on that EAD, as I recall, either the 7000 or 9000 was Fremer's reference a few years back. It would give him an opportunity to experiment with a dac, that he should have no trouble reselling or trading in, in the future. There is a good chance that it is alredy sold. In high end audio, everything matters, success is in the details. Remember, your system, is only as good as the weakest link and it all starts with the source. Screw that up and nothing down the line can fix it.
Jeff
I have not heard alot of Transport I will admit and I have heard the EAD's are really great.What about synergy between the two?Is there something to be looked at there?
I am using an old Phillips CD-80 that I have heard is still a relatively good transport.EAD 7000&8000 were recommended if I were to upgrade.
the sound in all regards is better than my EAD 7000. The 7000 was considered a reference in its day but much to my surprise the Sony, with other upgrades in ps and caps and so on, is better.
.
the dac sounds very fine but I don't use it anymore. it is collecting dust.
DAC's from:
Alchemist
Audio Alchemy
PS Audio
Musical Fidelity
Wadia
Monarchy Audio
Meridianwhen comparing the DAC, listen to the sound, if you don't have an upsampler, a 24/192, 24/96, 24/768 won't make much difference in decoding your CD signals, try the upsampling DAC's, also consider getting used De-jitter processor, they work
I'm now using Monarchy Audio Digital Interface Processor 24/96 and Alchemist 24/194 Upsampling DAC TSD2, they work wonderfully, though they may suit tube system more as the warm sweet tube sound is complementary to the clinically detailed sound of these 2 digital devices
Good list!
I have heard the De-jitter Processor's do work.Will look into it.
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