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In Reply to: RE: Not surprising to me posted by E-Stat on March 19, 2021 at 06:49:20
The studio where the mastering engineer who made the "Power Cord Test CDR" for me did their own double-blind experiments. They ended up putting home-brewed power cords on all their equipment.
The "recipe" is a dark secret, I am sure both for competitive reasons, and because they don't want incompetent DIYers burning their own houses down.
ciao,
john
PS: Micha Shattner, a brave thinker if there ever was one, told me once that most audible problems in audio are mechanical in origin rather than electrical or electronic in origin. He believed that what was going on in power cords was mechanical resonances, from the electromagnetic force's making the power cord conductors jump.
George Cardas seems to believe the same thing about speaker cables; he specifies a loose braid for his conductors, so there is more self-damping for EMF induced mechanical motion. Further, he appears to believe that loudspeaker cable break-in is a matter of mechanical "settling" as much as it is the "forming" of the dialectric.
I myself think that that's why a true "Oliver Heaviside" solid-core coaxial cable for S/PDIF usually sounds better than AES/EBU.
Follow Ups:
The mechanical aspect has always lurked in the back of my mind as being a big deal. After all, cryogenic treatment of most materials apparently does not change the chemical structure (I'm told that an exception is for certain ferrous based materials), but instead relieves internal mechanical stress. I've read that musicians, like brass instrument players, often can change the sound of their instrument through cryogenic treatment. Of the instrument, not them.
Coincidence??
With regard to to power cables, I think that one needs to look at what they do.
Obviously, their primary mission is to supply 50/60 Hz AC current to the equipment. Or, DC. Actually, there's also multiple harmonics of the AC mains frequency, too, since most rectifier systems used in electronic products only conduct during part of the AC waveform and that creates harmonic currents from the basic supply. This is a well known engineering consideration and can be easily measured. And, is measured all the time.
But, in addition to that mission, power cables also provide a path for common mode currents between various pieces of electronics. This is also a well known engineering consideration, but is usually ignored for some reason. This can be measured as well. And, is measured almost never.
Along the way, common mode signals can be, and often are, converted to differential mode signals which is what audio electronics nominally runs on. (Again, this can be measured.) The very high frequency signals found in digital equipment easily find their way around systems. They may be outside the usual audio frequencies, but they are inside the frequency ranges used by digital audio processing circuits. Plus, most analog circuitry has really lousy linearity outside the audio band and various distortion products and noise can find their way into the frequency ranges we're interested in. And, the common mode currents are often switched on and off at the AC mains frequency by those same rectifier systems for varying period of time depending on the instantaneous current demands. Not so well controlled, eh?
OK, that all sounds like techno-babble arm waving.
So, consider this:
If power cords and AC conditioners actually change the sound quality of a system - for better or worse - doesn't that say that there's more going through the AC mains than just 50/60 Hz AC? In the case of DC, there should be nothing but plain old DC, right? So, why should anything matter as long as the basic voltage drop of the 50/60 Hz or the DC isn't too severe?
Cryogenic processing changes the crystalline structure of steel.
And therefore, in a sense, its chemical composition, I guess.
The tip of a fascinating iceberg, if you can excuse the punsical allusion.
Also:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S092150931000794X
jm
Lots of groups other than audiophiles use cryo treatment. None of the cryogenic treatment service companies could get by if their customer base was just audio enthusiasts. I think a lot of their business comes from machine tool users and people who build race cars and so on. Some musical instrument companies, too.
I'd have thought that my comment about common mode noise currents and loops thereof would have brought more attention. But, I guess that's not the sort of thing that's on audio equipment customers' radar, so it shouldn't be surprising that the manufacturers aren't much concerned either.
Cryogenic treatment affects all materials, even plastic, non ferrous metals, ceramics, polycarbonate, paper, wood, etc. for example golf balls will travel further after cryo. Razor blades will last longer. There's more to cryo than meets the eye for audio applications, however. A lot more, it's not all about the relatively obvious physics. Perhaps another day we can delve into it.
Edits: 03/20/21
Isn't that what I wrote?
Now that I re-read your post yes. Physically cryo redistributes the molecules or atoms more homogeneously, that's what relieves stress in metals - the atoms and molecules get mashed up when drawn, bent or rolled or formed. As I said in my last post there's more to it than just the physics of materials. I was one of the very first to use cryo for audio applications. Also one of the first to use home freezers for audio applications.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica
Not too chicken to change
What inspired you to try it?
I was trying to remember what first inspired me and found a lot of threads on the subject of cryogenic treatment right here on Audio Asylum, mostly on Tweakers Asylum, and just saw a post of mine from 2000 where I commented I had been cryogenically treating things for "many many years."
My guess, circa 1987 because I recall it was after the release of the North Star LP of Arturo Delmoni's "Songs My Mother Taught Me," and we were in discussions with MFSL to make the CDs that North Star did not want to.
Herb Belkin believed that cryo was not necessary, because gold CDs were so good.
BTW, when I had a bunch of CDs cryo'ed for my own use, when I put on the Arturo Delmoni Ysaye-Kreisler-Bach solo recital, the woman I was married to at the time, who was a cellist and choral singer, recoiled and exclaimed,
"WHAT have they done to Arturo's violin?!?!? It sounds like a VIOLA being played in the fifth position!!!
That really happened!
jm
You beat me to it. I remember Meitner was cryoing his electronics and I know cryo had caught on in the early 2000s somewhat because Walker was using it on some of the parts of his fabulous turntable, and many high end cable companies were using cryo as part of their routine. I probably got the idea for home freezing from Peter Belt who promoted home freezing since the 80s, I deep froze all manner of CD players, CDs, LPs, cables. I first sent cables and CDs to the cryo lab around 1996. By 1997 I was cryoing steel rods and other hardware for my Nimbus sub Hertz platform. Getting back to the Belts for a second, they were the ones who taught me deep freezing non-audio related things produced better sound. Things like books, magazines, DVDs, photos.
Called "Museatex Cryogenics."
I gather that funding all that over the long haul got tired for Kurien Jacob, and so Museatex is now just an asterisk.
Ed is not only very smart, he is very funny.
jm
Jena Labs another nasa dude had an in-home operation dipping audio stuff in liquid nitrogen. Strangely, AudioQuest never got on board the Cryo train, which is weird because they're such big fans of directionality. (Troll buzzword) Other hi tech dudes like Purist and Shunyata most likely have been using cryo like forever. Also strange that Bob Crump and John Curl never got on board the Cryo train.
Bob Crump explained exactly why:https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=cables&n=79362&highlight=cryo+rcrump&search_url=%2Fdefault.mpl%3Fsearchtext%3Dcryo%26b%3DAND%26topic%3D%26topics_only%3DN%26author%3Drcrump%26date1%3D%26date2%3D%26slowmessage%3D%26sort%3Dscore%26sortOrder%3DDESC%26forum%3DALL
https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=cables&n=84763&highlight=cryo+rcrump&search_url=%2Fdefault.mpl%3Fsearchtext%3Dcryo%26b%3DAND%26topic%3D%26topics_only%3DN%26author%3Drcrump%26date1%3D%26date2%3D%26slowmessage%3D%26sort%3Dscore%26sortOrder%3DDESC%26forum%3DALL
And, Chris VenHaus has this to say: https://www.vhaudio.com/cryo.html
Note his comments at the very bottom.
Edits: 03/22/21
Nt
Nt
Hey! I'm just reporting what Bob said.
I'll know better next time.
Bob's not here to speak for himself so I'll dispute what he said with impunity.
Plinius also at least for a while supposedly was into cryo.
jm
Shunyata
Purist audio
Jena Labs
Stealth Audio
Furutech
VH Audio
JW Audio
JPS Audio
Snake River Audio
VooDoo Cable
Museatex
Ice Age Audio
Kubla-Sosna
AudioMinor Headphone Cables
Lakeshore Cryotronics
Reality Cables
Anti Cables
Townshend Audio
Van den Hul shares a similar theory, and argues IIRC that every time one moves speaker cables, they need another short period of "break-in" which is not really break-in, but the cables resettling mechanically.
molecules realign.
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