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In Reply to: RE: CD players going the way of the 8 track posted by jaydacus on June 18, 2012 at 16:47:08
I agree, and have been saying that for years.
Disks are dying more and more by the days. Dacs now all have usb.
The proof for me comes from Audio Note. Here is a blurb from an exchange I had with Peter about computer audio:I have people here trying to convince me that a computer server as a musical source is the way to go, so far I have to say that I am left deeply unimpressed by what I hear, so I think it will be a very long wait for anyone wishing to see Audio Note release a server, the word "eternity" springs to mind.
Unlike most of our "rivals" as you call them, we do not yield to commercial pressure, just like we do not follow technological fashion or make products just because they are guaranteed to sell, my business plan is somewhat less commercial and more focused on the long term of what I see as serving music reproduction.
So unless there is a quantum leap in the quality of what I have heard from a computer so far, it just is not happening.
Pretty strong views I think against computer audio. Funny thing is that if you go to Audio Note's site, what do you see. Yep USB input on at least one of their dacs. Even Audio Note knows that people are using computers more and more over cds.
It has reached critical mass IMHO and cds will continue to be passe. Sure there will be some dinosaurs that swear by them but no way the audio industry is going to reach young consumers by discs....
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
Follow Ups:
You are talking about The Market, Peter is talking about the reproduction of music. When the Peters of the world begin to think and talk as you are talking, something important will be over.
Hi Bob,
Hopefully the market will be all about music reproduction. If it isnt then what good is it. As an audiophile I am only interested in improving music reproduction and getting my system to sound as real as it can.
My point is that a computer based system can absolutely serve music reproduction as well as a disk and even better. PLUS it can be more convenient.
That is why I agree in general with the OP that disks are dying.
Also on a different note. You can connect more with the music. As a test I was playing with elyric which is PS audios ap for their network dac. I selected an album and it played. But it also gave me the option to get the groups bio. WIth a button press I had the bands history and discography. You cant do that with a cd. And with more and more hirez files coming out well it just is a no brainer.
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
Is it possible that young users may experience different kinds of digital music files via quality headphones? In that pursuit, do you think that it is possible that they might be exposed to higher quality playback devices? And if so, is it possible that they might experience something akin to a "very good sounding," - (i know that that is a moving target), - loudspeaker/amplifier/desktop computer system?
What are young people in their twenties calling DJ electronica music now? "Electronics."
Are they discovering John Digweed, Stephane Pompougnac, Orbital, Future Sounds of London, the Prodigy, all over again, (as they procure "electronics)?" How would they go about this?
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Hey Sordid,
Anything is possible. I hope they can get engaged on sq.
Sad thing is that most youth only know the mp3 version of the music and right there sq is gone.
And FWIW I am old and not in touch with todays youth.
Heck I dont even know the people you listed.
Anyhow the amount of good desktop amps/dacs/ speakers is way more than ever before.
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
Contrary to the long-held belief that young listeners think lossy compressed music is "just fine," my Harman colleague Dr. Sean Olive has published results from the first peer-reviewed scientific test showing that young listeners will in fact prefer CD-quality audio over lossy alternatives when given the choice. They also preferred "accurate sound reproduction" (translated: big speakers) over lesser alternatives.The trouble is, even if young people can be shown to want sound quality, they still don't want no stinkin' CDs. Just look at the Emily White v. David Lowery flame war.
CD sales are declining and will fall off the cliff when older listeners stop buying new music. Everyone who needs a home CD player probably has one (in the form of a Blu-ray player or an Xbox). CD players are disappearing as original equipment in vehicles, replaced by iPod/USB ports.
Not only is the CD player dead, it is starting to smell bad.
Edits: 06/22/12 06/22/12
Hi Tom,
Thanks for posting this. I wasnt aware of that research and man is it great that there is hope for the current generation.
Getting rid of the physical media is a no brainer especially if you can retain or better the sound quality.
Love that "starting to smell bad" line! It so true!
FWIW I got into computer audio by trying to improve the sound of my cds. I was burning copies using black cds and Audio Master Quality burning and the new disks did sound better. Doing that left me with the files on the computer and the rest they say is history.
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
Good post. You made your point quite well.
Hearing from a dinosaur brought some balance to the thread. However, even dinosaurs want to survive and their actions speak too.
Bill
Thanks Bill.
I think Peter's views were more valid years ago when he posted that. Clearly some are stuck with their disk mentality.
Sadly the cd is a problem you never know you have until you get rid of them with a computer based system.
If I could snap my fingers and show up in all these naysayers homes with a system that had their music on it and sounded as good or better than their cdp they would understand.
Of course there are attempts at computer audio that dont sound that good, but more and more it is getting easier to beat a cdp. I saw a post here recently that had a computer system outclassing a 16k spectral cdp.
If you can have all the convenience and the sq why the hell not??
You give me hope because you are old (so your moniker says) and you get it! Old is just a word by the way...
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
> You give me hope because you are old (so your moniker says)
> and you get it! Old is just a word by the way...
I doubt that I'm proof.
I took the screen name "Old Listener" because "Listener" was taken on AA. I am getting senior discounts but not for that long.
I first worked on recording and playing back audio about 1980. I wrote Windows kernel level s/w (drivers and other stuff) for audio and video in the late 90s. I knew then that I was going to computer based audio when hard drive capacities got big enough and prices low enough. (I had decided on using lossless formats rather than lossy formats. That delayed my start.)
I could transfer what I knew about user interfaces and relational databases to analyzing the functionality and operation that I wanted. By late 2005, hard drives were marginally adequate, I knew what I wanted from a system and I was ready to do my consumer research on available hardware and software and get started.
I don't think that my experience would be that typical of most "old" audiophiles coming to computer audio.
Bill
Hi Bill,
Yeah I know your experiences are vastly different than most in regards to computer audio.
But I can be hopeful right??
If you can see the benefits then maybe your generation is not a total write off.
I still think if I could snap my fingers and put a computer based system in every inmates system that most would see the benefits and switch. No if we could just remove the barriers to good sound from a computer I think I could go back to listening :)
This is really like those pictures at the mall where you stare at them long enough and the picture changes. And once you see the new picture you can readily see it again.
Sadly alot of inmates havent seen the picture change like you have.
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
> If you can see the benefits then maybe your generation is not
> a total write off.
rick_m and Tony might give you hope too.
> I still think if I could snap my fingers and put a computer based system
> in every inmates system that most would see the benefits and switch.
Maybe. You've gotten a response or two that indicates that some people would be very uncomfortable.
Bill
Yea, too bad, just listen to the absolute crap out there for "young people". It has no redeeming musical or entertainment value. Most of it is trash. IMHO.
I'm one to refuse going the computer DAC route. I'm also not going to try and transfer over 1k
CD's.
I'm old!OP mentions Nakamichi, they have been out of business for years, Kenwood is car crap now.
Hey, maybe the $5k machines will be selling for $500, time to clean up. I'll be there!
Edits: 06/19/12
Hey Baco,
Yea, too bad, just listen to the absolute crap out there for "young people". It has no redeeming musical or entertainment value. Most of it is trash. IMHO.
Not sure what you are talking about here. I certainly agree that most music made now is crap. They find a way to compress even the good stuff with dynamic range compression. But if you are talking about downloads, there are some good places. Linn audio has some great music available for download and many hi-res titles. Cd is limited to 44.1 AFAIK. Computer audio isnt.
I'm one to refuse going the computer DAC route. I'm also not going to try and transfer over 1k CD's.
No sympathy from me. At this point I have done about 3,000 discs. It can be a pain but it isnt hard. Hell I can do it. Best to do 4-5 in the morning and 4-5 at night. Once you get the favorites done and see how convenient it can be you will WANT to get the rest done.
I'm old!
Great. Then you hopefully have the money to pay some youngster to do the work. In fact there are many companies who will rip the discs for you at affordable rates.
Anyhow it is just a matter of time. The cd drives themselves are being produced at a lower and lower rate. When the dvd dies and it will cdp owners will be sorely pressed to replace their transport.
So when you are cleaning up get a brand that has a history of buying extra replacement parts.....
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
As I said I'm old.
CD Drives, I understand the shortages causing players to be obsolete, that have been going on now for 10 years. Phillips being the largest offender. I'll do something about it when the time comes. Playing a lot of vinyl the last year.
Groups and Music? The newer ones showing up on Leno and the MTV Music Awards etc..Don't even know the names. Absolute trash. Just my opinion. I don't do portable music although my wife does.
Hey Baco,
Nothing wrong with being old. I get that. I bought my dad a fathers day card that showed a spiffy young guy and a caption that read "Before Kids". Then a picture of an old bald guy who looked tired and like life has sucked him dry. The caption read "After kids". My wife commented that I looked like that even without the kids.
Groups and Music? The newer ones showing up on Leno and the MTV Music Awards etc..Don't even know the names. Absolute trash. Just my opinion. I don't do portable music although my wife does.
Its an opinion I agree with. No portable music here, not even my wife.
You might want to see the music on these sites. They might have something more your speed:
http://www.linnrecords.com/catalogue.aspx?format=studio
https://www.hdtracks.com/
Oh and if you check out Linn's site, do note what they no longer make...thats right CDPs. They only make network players for digital files. I wonder why that is :)
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
The OP says, "dying out very quickly" now you say, "It has reached critical mass"-sensational nonsense. A prerequisite for your agendas.
Hi Soul,
I think by "it" I meant the adoption of computer audio. Nowadays it seems like every new dac has to have usb. Please show one that came out in the last few months that doesnt have a usb input? Last 6 months? Last year?
Given how it used to be in computer audio just a few years ago the amount of options one has and the amount of people taking the plunge is at critical mass IMHO.
As to agenda sure I have one. Its simple really. With some effort one can get better sound and listen to more music with a computer based system than a good cdp.
Getting better sound and listening to more music (because it is easier) is a noble aim for an audiophile IMHO. YMMV
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
I think by "it" ["It has reached critical mass"] I meant the adoption of computer audio.
You're the one reaching with this critical mass nonsense.
"Getting better sound and listening to more music (because it is easier) is a noble aim for an audiophile IMHO."
Better sound as a result of convenience is a neminesis to the hobby and a hard sell to audiophiles.
Hey Soul,
You're the one reaching with this critical mass nonsense.
I noticed you didnt name one dac without a usb connection. In that regard, being able to buy a dac to connect to any computer it is a critical mass. USB is now a checklist item for any audio company. RELATIVE to just a few years ago this is critical mass, and it is only building. Not to mention network players.
Better sound as a result of convenience is a neminesis to the hobby and a hard sell to audiophiles.
This makes no sense. How do you get better sound because of convenience? I am not espousing computer audio because of convenience though some end up there because of it, and it is a nice plus. Heck I play "albums" myself and dont do playlists but some love that.
I am espousing computer audio because it can sound better. Sure there are alot of options one can do that might not sound better, but in terms of sq computers are the present and future.
Better sound is a "hard sell to audiophiles"???? I thought I was the one reaching??
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
I reached a different conclusion than you did. After dabbling in computer audio for a couple of years now, I found the sound inferior to my CD playback system and always found myself wanting to slip a silver disc into the tray instead of playing it's counterpart file from my music library. I also believe downloads lose something by the time that music reaches my ears so I have stopped doing that. Because of this I am buying more CD's now than I ever did and don't plan on stopping anytime soon!
Sorry to hear that.
I am not surprised. It is pretty easy to screw up computer audio.
What was your system and what was the cdp?
One thing that most people screw up is not dedicating the computer to audio ONLY.
ANother thing is that people get cheap. They expect to spend $250 and beat a good cdp. That is a stretch.
I am assuming that these downloads werent mp3s right??
Weird that downloads werent sounding good. Something is going on. WHich player were you using and where were these downloads from??
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
Well that's the biggie, isn't it. Are we there yet? I'm not saying we won't get there but if that's the reason for espousal, it's the right one. But if it's really convenience that's leading the parade here, there's not a great history of that leading toward anything that's truly better at reproducing music.
I think we are there now. just the other day I read a report where the computer beat a $16k cdp:
here
Sure there are some crappy computer setups out there and it isnt always as easy as buy this usb dac connect and sound better than a cdp. But it is possible these days.
An example to is the Bryston transport which is essentially a computer with a $150 soundcard running linux. Sure there are some linear psus in there but you could duplicate this effort pretty easily and get most of the performance for a bunch less.
What is funny to me is that no one questions that transport because it looks like an audio component. But start talking about your linux computer with a Juli@ sound card and audiophiles get skeptical....
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
When I said, "Better sound as a result of convenience is a neminesis to the hobby and a hard sell to audiophiles.", it was a reply to your,
"Getting better sound and listening to more music (because it is easier) is a noble aim for an audiophile IMHO."
I was simply disagreeing with your 'noble aim' position.
"Better sound is a "hard sell to audiophiles"???? I thought I was the one reaching??"
Clearly, you're spinning and reaching.
Do you stand by what you said, above? Your answer could put the spinning part to rest.
The "listening to more music" part is because it is easier, not the audio quality. I am not saying you get better audio quality because things are more convenient. Certainly no one thinks THAT.
You listen to more music because things are easier.
Look at the sentence there was a big AND there, and the parenthesis apply to the 2nd part not the first.
Maybe I should simplify it:
Getting better sound is a noble aim for an audiophile.
Listening to more music because it is easier is a noble aim for an audiophile.
I stand by that!
Its not just me saying it either. Those who have made the switch know this:
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
The "listening to more music" part is because it is easier, not the audio quality. I am not saying you get better audio quality because things are more convenient. Certainly no one thinks THAT.
PHEW, GLAD WE'VE GOT THAT ONE OFF THE TABLE, THOUGH THIS SEEMS LIKE A BIT OF
A RETRENCHMENT?
You listen to more music because things are easier.
WOW, THAT'S A DEPRESSING THING TO SAY OUT LOUD. IF THERE'S A PROBLEM WITH
HIGH END AUDIO, YOU WOULD APPEAR TO BE IT.
Getting better sound is a noble aim for an audiophile.
SO LONG AS YOU MEAN BETTER REPRODUCTION OF MUSIC, SURE.
Listening to more music because it is easier is a noble aim for an audiophile.
THIS IS STILL DEPRESSING TO ME. I AM OLD TOO. MEANING I AM STILL ONE OF
THOSE FOLKS WHO SIT DOWN TO LISTEN TO MUSIC AND PAY ATTENTION TO
IT. CONVENIENCE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. NOR WITH ANYTHING ELSE THAT
MATTERS PERHAPS?
I
Hi Bob,
PHEW, GLAD WE'VE GOT THAT ONE OFF THE TABLE, THOUGH THIS SEEMS LIKE A BIT OF
A RETRENCHMENT?
Yikes. Given this reaction and that of Soulfood it is clear that there are some out there who just havent lived without disks. Anyone who has put all their music on computer will understand my statement. THere is no retrenchment or whatever Soulfood accused me of doing.
Let me try to explain it. When I say more music I really mean music you might not remember or havent heard in years. See most of the time I think most of us listen to the same 30% of our collections. Most cds probably have 3-4 good songs on them and the other 7 get quickly forgotten. When it is all on a computer you can get those songs easily if you want. I hear songs I never knew I had some times.
So I am not necessarily saying that you get to listen to MORE music because it is too hard without a computer. NOt at all. Like most philes I dont mind some effort to hear the music come alive. That comment really spoke to listening to more of your music collection.
Here is a post by Gordon that speaks to it better than I can:
here
Yes better reproduction of the music is what I mean by better sound. Actually I cant think of how they could differ.
Yeah I too like to focus on the music. Sit in the listening chair and just connect. Believe it or not I AM an audiophile. I knew there was a stigma about computers but I thought that was long dead. Guess not.
IME the computer brings me closer than my cdp/dac did. That is why I keep the computer. If it didnt offer better sound then I would be spinning disks.
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
"Look at the sentence there was a big AND there, and the parenthesis apply to the 2nd part not the first."
This is the point of contention. It's understood that everyone is interested in obtaining better sound. It was misplaced in your sentence. If intentional, it might be considered as a filler for strengthening your point.
Soul you give me too much credit.
I miscommunicate with out it being intentional all the time :)
Honestly I think my point is pretty strong on its own. YMMV
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
The trek of CD players being analogous to the 8 track is nuts, right?
Probably. But they will go there. The end result will be the same.
Kids are growing up without a cdp just like they did before without an 8 track.
Just a matter of time.
And I have said this here before but you may not have seen it. To be precise my view is that CD PLAYBACK is dying. I still buy disks and hope they are made for a while. But I havent played a disk in a long long long while. Except for the dvd player and the drive on the computer I have nothing to play them back with.
Heck didnt apple just launch a computer or laptop without a drive. It was a major deal recently. The world is changing and physical media are going to be a thing of the past. DVDs are dying too. Why wait in the mail for a dvd or run to the store when you can just click a button on your TV screen and enjoy....
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
nt
We'll see.
Did you see the post on here about the CBC digitizing and selling their cd collection and albums too?
The writing is on the wall man.
CBC
Also dvds are declining too as more and more downloads and streaming take over:
dvd
Books too are headed that way. The future is digital.
Here is a question for you. Are typewriters a thing of the past? WHY??
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
You really think those links substantiate your predictions? A gently used crystal ball would be more credible.
"Here is a question for you. Are typewriters a thing of the past? WHY??"
So, the advent of word processing keyboards is one of your predictions? My guess is you've never predicted anything that became true. Besides, it's not as big of a leap as mental telepathy. Something more in your wheelhouse.
You really think those links substantiate your predictions? A gently used crystal ball would be more credible.
Yes I do and as I said we will see. There are so many negatives for the longterm survival of cdp that it isnt even funny. Sales of dvd players are falling and so are cd sales. If the disks are so needed then why did the CBC get rid of them? Clearly disks arent needed so they will pass.
So, the advent of word processing keyboards is one of your predictions? My guess is you've never predicted anything that became true. Besides, it's not as big of a leap as mental telepathy. Something more in your wheelhouse.
I guess we just arent communicating. I didnt predict the demise of the typewriter, but I think it is safe to say that it IS dead. WHY? Because it isnt needed and current solutions are better and easier. Just like the cdp is not needed.
Oh and that is a classy move trying to insult my intelligence. Looks like you are getting desperate.
Obviously you like the cdp. Good luck with that. Me I think Linn and Ayre, Wavelength, etc. are more in touch with reality and know that the physical medium is dead.
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
"Yes I do and as I said we will see. There are so many negatives for the longterm survival of cdp that it isnt even funny."This type of vagueness makes me wonder what we're debating about. If you don't want to commit to a timetable, is it fair to say it will occur in our lifetime?
"Obviously you like the cdp." LOL, you're the one with the CD phobia. I'll be fine no matter what.
"Me I think Linn and Ayre, Wavelength, etc. are more in touch with reality and know that the physical medium is dead."
Dead? Now, you're either worshiping false prophets or misrepresenting their gospel. Maybe if you stay the course long enough they'll deliver you from your transgressions.
As you've said, "Good luck with that."
Edits: 06/22/12
Right. By the amount of CD's and CD players still being sold and the amount of people still listening to them, one would have to suggest the'll be around for a very long time.
Anyone recall how long the 8 track lasted?
I'm not sure why he made the concession, except to attract potential buyers of his high end equipment.
USB technology focuses on jitter reduction. The Audio Note philosophy is a) you can't hear low level jitter and b) the cure is worse than the disease, if there is one.
I have an entry-level USB Dac that sounds very good with my headphone amp, but does not mate at all well with my Audio Note equipment, and does not come close to matching the sound produced by my AN digital front end. A recent review in Stereophile shows that my AN CD4.1x measures very poorly, by the way, compared to my USB Dac, both reviewed by Art Dudley.
Observe, don't think
Hi Fri,
At one point on their site they mentioned that the usb was a "a highly requested option". I couldnt find it there now but it has to be the case. AFAIK Audio Note does listen to its customer base.
Much like the rest of audio it often takes an investment to get results. Computer audio is no different IME and it takes an investment to get better results than a good cdp but it can be done.
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
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