|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
174.62.235.138
I'm looking to insert a DAC into my existing 2 channel system. Here are my parameters:Budget - Under $2,000.
System - MacBook Pro and Simaudio CD5.3 --> Conrad Johnson CA200 control amp --> Renaissance Audio Group (formerly Morel) Preludes.
Musical preference --> All over the map; primarily small group jazz, but also rock and blues and classical and pop and you name it.I had a Music Hall DAC25.3 in that system, and really like it. That DAC is now part of another, more modest, system. I've considered getting another Music Hall, because I think it sounds very nice and is a great value, but can't help but want to upgrade at this point and think my system justifies an upgrade.
I just auditioned a bel canto DAC1.5, which I liked a lot and am considering getting. Actually, its quite hard for me to distinguish the bel canto from the Simaudio CDP whether feeding it from the Mac's USP or from the Simaudio's S/PDIF coax. The Music Hall, on the other hand, added some bloom and enlarged the soundstage a bit, but at the expense of some neutrality and, I think, some detail. I am considering auditioning the bel canto DAC2.5, because it has the improved LNS1 power supply built in, and would like to determine if I can hear any difference (If I do, I would likely get the 1.5 with the outboard LNS1 power supply).
Am also considering the Peachtree iDac, but would prefer to buy a piece manufactured in North America if possible. (Nothing against the Chinese or Europeans, mind you, but would prefer to support local labor and entrepreneurs.)
I am not religious about technical approaches (the bel canto has adaptive USB and switching power supply and sounded great to me). Would also prefer multiple digital inputs, but would be willing to consider a USB only DAC if it sounds great, because that would likely be its only use.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
EDIT: The CJ amp is wonderfully transparent and neutral, but at the expense of some dynamics, so I would rather err a bit on the lively side of lively vs. laid back.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
Edits: 05/01/12Follow Ups:
Another vote for the Schitt Bifrost. Great DAC at a give away price.
I understand that this DAC is very popular and highly touted among users and reviewers. I've kept my eye on it over the past year or so. My primary concern, and one reason I didn't mention it, is that there does not appear to be any way to do a home audition, at least not for someone on the East Coast, which sets it apart from most of the other DACs listed in this thread or that I am otherwise aware of and considering. For example, locally I could audition at home from local dealers the bel canto, Music Hall, Ayre, Peachtree, Rega and Simaudio, and maybe more (not that all are within my budget). And then there are online stores, such as Music Direct and such, whose business models specifically include 30 day home trials, which opens the doors also to PS Audio and other brands.
Wired 4 Sound is very upfront in their policies, posted on their website, about not being in the business of lending equipment, and hence imposing a 15% restocking fee, in order to manage their pricing. I completely respect that. So much so, that even though the restocking fee is manageable, I wouldn't want to take advantage of it because it's not how their business model works. Just curious how others have handled this. By leap of faith? Or is there a dealer network I'm not aware of?
Also, what's with having to download a proprietary driver onto you PC or, in my case, Mac? I'm sure it's easy enough, but why the requirement when so many other DACs are plug and play? Just curious. I recall reading that such DACs can be more finicky, and I'm not up for operational bugs.
Finally, in case I do decide to take a leap of faith on the W4S, how would those who own it or have heard it describe it's sonic character. I'm looking for something somewhat lively, or at least not overtly or intentionally laid back, because of the already very neutral, laid back character of my CJ integrated amp.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
The one I borrowed for audition was sold after it was compared to the Octave. The owner recently purchased an Off Ramp4 USB converter.
Another suggestion would be to wait for the Empirical Audio Hot Rod DAC estimated at $1500. A product that I believe you will be able to audition at home.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=40.0
The download are probably USB 2.0 drivers.......
Native will be 1.1
The DACMagic + has a setup option for either. The 2.0 driver is native to OSX....maybe 10.6.5 and up?
Too much is never enough
I think the W4S DAC2 will be a good match for your setup given it's very dynamic and lively sound. It also presents a strong deep impactful bass which I would consider to be a good match in a CJ system as I consider CJ electronics to be more on the slightly 'polite' side.
If it's any help, W4S often has show specials but email or call them first before you show up at a show expecting to buy. I bought mine last October at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest in Denver and got a decent discount. I stopped by the room when they weren't too busy, gave my credit card, and received my DAC2 fresh from the factory about a week later.
And... if you decide you don't care for the DAC2, they sell pretty quick used up on Audiogon w/o much depreciation from their new price.
As for the drivers, mine came with a CD with Windows and Mac drivers. No problems at all. Just install it and it works fine.
Exactly the type of info I was looking for.
One more question - have you been able to use the W4S with its single ended outputs? As you may recall from your CJ days, they don't have XLR inputs, and one often reads that source components with balanced designs don't sound as good through their SE outputs.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
Funny you should ask about the RCA vs XLR outputs on the DAC2. I use both!
I use the XLR outputs directly to my Bryston 7BSST2 monoblock amps, and I use the DAC2's built-in volume control via the handheld remote control.
I also run the DAC2 into my Rogue Cronus Magnum integrated amp and I do this with the RCA outputs from the DAC2.
I do not run both setups at the same time but all I have to do is swap the speakers between the Bryston monoblocks and the Rogue integrated.
The RCA outputs sound excellent to me but I have not done a real A/B comparison vs the XLRs into the same setup. (Only XLR into Brystons and RCA into Rogue).
.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
You will not be disappointed in W4S DAC2. Extremely verstaile, well-built, great sounding and a stupendous value.
Neal
Am considering my options.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
First things first. I see you just upgraded your turntable. Benz Ace, good. Now use the Benz re-tip offer and trade up to the Benz Ruby Z.
The convenience of the Squeezebox touch had me shopping for a DAC. With the same under 2K budget I auditioned six DACs. I quickly realized I hate digital and most of the minions who think this sounds good. Then I heard a dCS stack and the light bulb began to glow but the price is at that professional level and the quick digital obsolescence and deprecation is downright kick yourself in the ass dumb.
After more reading the Metrum Acoustics Octave Non Over Sampling RCA/SPDIF 24/178 DAC with a unique chip based output stage became a very intriguing. People with good analog backgrounds began raving about its presentation. Everything I read was true. This is the first digital I've actually felt comfortable listening to and my wireless implementation is far from optimum. Forget about balanced in/outs, 192, and made in the USA, this thing does it.
It sold direct for $728. inc/shp from the Netherlands. Now its dealered in the US for $1095.
[I'm interested in purchasing another Metrum Acoustics Octave DAC. I see that Metrum is no longer exporting to the US at the $730 including shipping price. They also inform that due to the success of the product they are not raising the price.
http://www.nosminidac.nl/price_list.html
Can you explain the almost $300 price increase?]
"We have always sold them for $1095...we are not aware of a $730 price.
hifiheaven2002@yahoo.com
skype:hifi.heaven
www.hifiheaven.net
Call 920-494-8999 10a-7p Chicago time.
Thanks
Jim"
Whatever. Combine this with an Empirical Audio Off Ramp for USB to SPDIF and well...don't trust me. Read all about it.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1327769923&openflup&25&4#25
http://www.nosminidac.nl/Octave_English.html
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/threads/8259-Metrum-Octave-WOW?highlight=bhobba
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/6-DAC-Digital-to-Analog-Conversion
W4S DAC2, Rega, and Peachtree.
They're all good. I kind of like the Peachtree the best, but it's close.
"Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
-Dr. Greg House
I think that big buck d/a converters, even when bought used, take a huge hit in resale as the new flavour of the month arrives, and as someone brings out your 20-lb box on a chip.
Suggest avoiding the high priced spreads unless you accept that depreciation will be murder.
I just sent off for a Cambridge DACMagic+. At a fraction of your 'max' amount.
2x coax/toslink inputs, Async USB and a bonus BlueTooth dongle input.....dongle 'xtra'.
The real kicker, for me, at least, is the headphone output for late nite listening.
Balanced and single ended outputs along with 3 choices of output filter.
A source and powered speakers would be all you'd need for a very respectable system.
Too much is never enough
I have a W4S product - they are very well made!
nt
Remember, it's all about the music.
Best sounding thing I've heard and its only $1500. Very smooth on the HF. They have a free audition program as well. They are an AA sponsor too.
ET
Edits: 05/01/12
Although the D100 Mk2 doesn't have a USB input, which the OP mentioned as his planned method of connection, many people connect it directly to their MacBook and iMac computers via the mini-TOSLink optical output jack.
Without a $ amount attached to the "budget", no one knows where to begin. Is dCS gear out of your range? Are the $25 DACs on amazon.com below your expectations?
"Budget - Under $2,000."
Now that's the proper way to start a request for recommendations. The equipment list and musical preferences further show that you understand that others need more than "Recommend a budget DAC for me." in order to make a positive contribution.
That said, I don't have any suggestions.
Just kidding.
Based on the info you provided, I would take a look at this current and future
I kind of wish you'd left my post out of this topic, as I was not even an offender and, well, ya didn't exactly add anything. Seems like this would be fair game in the post before mine where the guy didn't give a budget, but kind of an unfortunate hijack here given the care I took not to do that in my post.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
It took you 24 hours to come up with that? Wow.
"I was not even an offender"
And I pretty much said that you had a well prepared request for DAC recommendations.
"ya didn't exactly add anything"
You asked for DAC recommendations and I recommended two possibilities based on your system/music comments ( "Based on the info you provided, I would take a look at this current and future Schiit. " ): the Schiit Bifrost -- that would be the "current", as it's available now -- and the Schiit Gungnir -- that would be the "future", as it won't be available until August.
"kind of an unfortunate hijack here given the care I took not to do that in my post."
Wasn't the subject line in my post "let me be the first to thank you" ? Perhaps it was written because you actually did take the time to compose a very good "recommendation" post. Few people do that (very few) and that's one of the reasons why I gave you kudos.
Based on the above, it seems that you completely misunderstood what I said. It's almost as if you read a different post.
nt
was the humor going over your head. I will (reluctantly) explain what you missed if you so request.[ADDENDUM: For the record, if you read a post of mine and don't see any humor in it, then you either missed it or I didn't put any humor in it.]
Edits: 05/04/12
or to the original one, in which you responded to Josh T.
In a second look at the thread, I see where you provided a link to the Schiit product. I completely missed your text AND the link during the first visit, as it's so far down the page, with a HUGE amount of blank space between the main body and the suggestion.
Perhaps that was mgbpuff 's observation, and I can tell you, it sure had me confused when I first saw your post.
Without the space (which could have been a little less), the "Wait for it... Wait for it..."/build up, faux let down, Return of the Jedi effect is kinda lost.
I am not Sgt. Joe Friday.
Borrring.
nt
You're batting average sucks (.000). Can you play any defense?
Nt
nt
Joe,
I just scrolled down and say the link in your post. I simply missed that. Thought the part about having no suggestions was the end of your post.
I do apologize, and thank you for the suggestion.
Josh
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
Just so you know, the Schiit gear has a 15-Day Money-Back Guarantee. Don't like it? Send the Schiit back! One other thing that's nice about their products: the DACs are modular. If they come out with a better analog section, input board, etc, then you can get the product upgraded for a small cost (at least compared to buying a whole new piece of equipment). It's almost like DIY, but the manufacturer does the DIYing for you.
You might want to wait for their Gungnir DAC (August 2012). I suspect that it'll exceed their Bifrost by enough to make the wait and the extra $400 wortwhile (better analog section, better jitter reduction, better reclocking, etc). Besides that, it will still be far below your $2k budget. Below is a link to the FAQ section re: Schiit's Gungnir DAC.
Not waiting until August, but I'm really intrigued by the entry level and the company. Great sense of humor and they seem to have quite a following.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
Nobody thinks dCS gear is 'budget' in the context of this board.
Why be pedantic?
My interpretation of 'budget' in this context is $100-$500.
Cheers
With respect....
It is my fond hope that people stay within the realm of the $1000 and above components when they refer to budget. IMO, - there are plenty of other sites, magazines, and other areas that talk about Low-end equipment.
Personally, - I assumed that since he mentioned $2000, that he meant above $1000, and below $2000.
Cheers,
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Man there's something wrong with the language when 'budget' stated alone for a very small part of a total audio system means '$2000'....I understand, 'a budget of $2000' is clear enough, but I was reacting to some one else's post which asked for a 'budget DAC' in which case $2000 would be clearly inflated.
Like I posted to JMJr below, I believe audiophiles are fooling themselves to some extent with their pursuit of these boutique products, as if they could reliably objectively hear the tiny sonic differences between these products, especially when in general their systems aren't perfectly revealing to begin with. Cheers.
Edits: 05/03/12
But the average system here costs $20,000.
And the budget high-end on a high-end audiophile site is the $1000 entry point.
IMO, - and in general. (Please read as general, as in there ARE a number of exceptions)... A $1000 and up price point component performs at a higher level then the mid-level $500-$800 mid-end components....
The very close to $1000 Benchmark DAC was one of those "finds" that was a "budget" DAC that garnered a lot of respect as a good sounding, "budget" piece for the high end market: (it came from the "pro" market). Of course, nowadays, that DAC has been surpassed by a number of "better" or "better regarded" mid-end DACs.
Also, I need to get more experience with DACs, (as opposed to CD players), but those $1000 and $2000 CDPs at least sound really great, and to me, make them worth saving for, and the difference in sound quality is dramatic enough to make them worth it: and I know that I'm not alone...
The Audio Aero Prima, (now discontinued) at $2200 or the Arcam FMJ CD23, or the Naim, or the Linn, Jolida, or the Lector, - were all better and very noticeably so then their NAD, Cambridge, Music Hall, or the other sub $1000 players.
Same is true in my experience with DACs. All those DACs like the Cambridge, are mid-end to lo-end products and they sound like it, comparatively...
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
I had one of your mid-priced CD players....which I replaced at no loss with a sub-1000$ DACS.
I think 'trickle down' is in full swing. It may even be true that todays sub-1000$ DAC is fully the equal of 5 years ago for 3x the price...corrected for inflation, of course.
Too much is never enough
Sordidman,
do something else...
Hazel
grow up....
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Here is a site that gives Blue Circle product pricing - you won't see anything here to compete with Emotiva. Also, I don't know what the average system price is on the Asylum and neither do you. Not all post their systems and not all pay retail prices.
And your opinion, is just your opinion......
""you won't see anything here to compete with Emotiva""
Uh, everything that I've heard by Emotiva, - puts them in the class that they're in, or lower. They have no "high-end" products.
""Also, I don't know what the average system price is on the Asylum and neither do you.""
We all do, as there was a poll, - in which I am referring.
""Not all post their systems and not all pay retail prices.""
Obviously, - and you said that, why?
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
High end does not just mean the cost of the equipment. Many of us look for hi performance in reasonably priced products. This is pretty much an opinion blog and a sharing blog for all of us. So I expressed my opinion - is that so shocking? You seem to be unrelenting rude toward a poster whose 2nd language is English. Why can't you share your wisdom (and I'm sure you do have much from what I see in your very many posts) in a kindlier fashion?
and have always posted as such....Your assumptions, are just assumptions.
""High end does not just mean the cost of the equipment.""
Of course, and your point? As we all know, and is obvious, there is a difference between the classification and the sound. A great mid-end component is one that cost less than the GENERAL classification of high-end, (which is roughly $1K), but sounds much better. A "high-end" component that doesn't sound so good, will be one whose sound does not live up to its price point.
""Many of us look for hi performance in reasonably priced products""Sure, - and what is a "reasonable price" for you, is likely to ONLY be a reasonable price for you. No two people here agree on what sounds good, what is a "reasonable price," what works well with something else, or what kind of music is good music. A high school student might call your "reasonable price" unreasonable...
""This is pretty much an opinion blog and a sharing blog for all of us. So I expressed my opinion - is that so shocking? You seem to be unrelenting rude toward a poster whose 2nd language is English.""
Well, it's a public forum. Nothing is shocking. It wasn't the concept of the opinion, - but the negative judgment that went along with it. In that people who purchase and speak about high-end products are "unreasonable." (As I mentioned, much of this site concerns talk about the high-end. There are plenty of other sites that do not).
So do you mean you or Hazel as someone with English as their second language? If it's Hazel, his command of sarcasm was pretty darn good, and the rude tone spoke for itself. And you jumped in to his aid? Why? I was responding to his rudeness....
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Edits: 05/08/12
Isn't it true that you are a Blue Circle Audio Dealer?
Please answer Yes or No.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
it's boring.
Your posts reflect a person who is somewhat together. I can't help you with your problem, and/or unclarified agenda.
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Just answer the question, yes or no. Surely this is easier than continuing to evade a simple question, unless there is something to hide.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Consider a used PS Audio PWD MK1, it could upgraded to the MKII, you could add the network bridge.. great sounding Dac, and very flexible.. and made in the USA
I would hold you to a higher standard in such matters. English is both your and my primary language. Sarcasm is out of place when dealing with those who understand basic English but would struggle with the innuendos inherent in sarcasm. The same would apply to Joe Murphy Jr. Both of you have valuable experience and technical know-how that we all can appreciate if delivered in the spirit of helpfulness instead of disdain. Peace!
From Hazel
""Sordidman,do something else...
Hazel""
I don't think so.
But, I do not wish to be rude, so I will both re-examine, and watch what I post.
Cheers,
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Edits: 05/08/12
"Nobody thinks dCS gear is 'budget' in the context of this board."
The dCS gear was to make an exaggerated point. Surely no one would argue that I didn't exaggerate to make the point, right?
"My interpretation of 'budget' in this context is $100-$500."
What? The OP said "Budget - Under $2,000." Where do you get $100 - $500 when he's willing to shell out nearly $2k?
.
I don't get why this hasn't shown up as an issue earlier.
It seems like a weird caching problem. I kick started the server just to eliminate an Apache issue. It's been running smoothly for months and we haven't made any changes. But I typically kick start it now and then to clear caches to install minor changes.
We haven't had one for a while and will soon with the new Trader feedback upgrades that we've been testing.
If you still see yourself at the Smart guy, can you get into his profile? Not that it would help you because you still need a password to change anything and there's no financial data that's saved.
-Rod
A similar thing happened to me and I alerted Chris. Same wrong user name.
It is quite real. I logged out and back in as Old Listener. No re-occurrence since then. Scary though.
Bill
Replied to a comment and then hit Post Message . Clicked on the Digital link and returned to the main page. Saw the title that I typed, but with smart845 as the author. I clicked on the comment that I (as he, I guess) posted and inside of the comment it still said smart845 . OK, there's a problem.
Went to another part of the forum ( Video ) and clicked on a comment. It still showed me as smart845 . Clicked the back button and looked at the top right of the main page. Sure enough, it showed me as smart845 . From that point, I clicked Logout and cookies were deleted. Went back to Digital and clicked on the smart845 post to report the issue as the "real" me.
I do know that smart845 (then again, maybe not...) posted in the PC Audio part of the forum 4 seconds after I posted in Digital (see link below).
"If you still see yourself at the Smart guy, can you get into his profile?"
After I logged out/deleted cookies, I was me again once I typed in my Moniker and Password (starting with the something is amiss title).
btw I don't understand why, years after this technology was first available, why a decent, small format external DAC should cost more than $500. I think audiophiles are the first to inflate the dollar values of everything by willing to spend more for less all the time.
The original post said (to paraphrase) 'Budget?= <2000$' which implies, at least to me, a maximum amount to spend.
You don't have to spend it all and you can not exceed the maximum. 1500$ suggestions are fine, while my DACMagic+ at 600$ street price, may be on the 'low' side.
The OP didn't want a 'budget component'.
We've been over gear pricing and it's clear to me that limited production numbers are at least one drive behind some pretty amibtious prices. Add in any other factor you can think of.
For now I'll stay at the 'value' end of the pool, while allowing for a big spend if I win the lotto and have that room addition constructed.
And to Tom? I think a modern 500$ DAC should be the equal of even a near cost-no-object DAC of a decade ago. Trickle down is in play here, while new ideas, tech and construction are floated at cost no object pricing, which'll be mainstream in just a couple years.
Too much is never enough
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: