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In Reply to: RE: Audio Science Review posted by merid on October 17, 2019 at 18:00:01
That's a term I learned from an EE professor in college and I think it's appropriate here.
I work in engineering and it's common for engineers to gather lots of data without gaining any insight, chase numbers that aren't operationally meaningful, optimize things that don't need to be optimized, or go in circles squeezing one side of the balloon after another, only to have the other side stick out.
Getting fixated on numbers is a common engineer's trap that we all fall into at some point. Managers who rose out of engineering tend to fall into it too, spending resources to capture lots of process metrics that are never utilized for process improvement. Having the numbers is like a security blanket that makes managers feel like they know what's going on in their organization.
I haven't spent a ton of time on ASF. I've mostly just followed threads there from other places. But my impression is that it's one big ego stroke where Amir gets to play with toys and everybody drools in anticipation, waiting for another high-end audio product to be deemed unworthy. Among hobbyist measurers, I think Archimago does more interesting work.
Follow Ups:
rather than tell us how much larger their sound stage grew, how many counties away the significant other, who doesn't care, could hear all the veils removed, etc. etc.... and all this number fetishing is just far too much to take?
A couple measurement guys show up, among the billions of non measurement audio poetry people, and there just aint room for the the measurement people in this town...all one or two of them.
I know. His methods are imperfect and he has more to learn. Since I am perfect, this really bugs me.
But Amir also comes into his forums and attempts to defend his choices. Debates the topics with his detractors and often times modifies his test approach according to those forum discussions.
How is trying to come up with 10 or so tests to try and finally obtain an apples to apples comparison database fixating?
I say we burn this witch asap.
A bit of " man with a hammer......." Not measuring the headroom of a phono stage and instead focusing on SIN(which was well below audible and a lot better than a turntable can produce). It suggested that he did not understand the device under test or its purpose. It is not a failure of his marvelous toy, but the fact that he needs to take time to figure out what the devices do and put together the numbers to come up with an idea of how the device works in terms of measurement and its desired purpose.
Getting an idea about where a normal operating point lies within the range, of what may be possible, all tells a lot that seems important to me. There is the question if his equipment is up to running a test that would show all the results neatly in a graph, if he doesn't realize this info is important to some, or maybe he just doesn't have the time for it. I'd like to see that covered better too. What would be a reasonable expectation in that regard? Edit: perhaps defining arbitrary hard limit such as 1% thd and level gives that is considered the overload? sorry I don't know the typical testing methods...
Edits: 10/28/19 10/28/19
How is trying to come up with 10 or so tests to try and finally obtain an apples to apples comparison database fixating?
How would you select the tests? If they are going to be used to compare and judge audio products, they should be relevant to sonic performance. Otherwise, we're just playing with numbers.
Amir seems to like measuring DACs, and focuses a lot on THD+N/SINAD.
In fact, that is how he ranks them. But why should anybody care about THD+N for a DAC? Even comparatively poor measuring modern DACs have insignificant levels of distortion and noise that are comfortably below other sources and contribute essentially nothing to the system. Filterless DACs are an exception, but they are so "broken" there's really no point in comparing them to a standard DAC.
When questioned about the relevance of certain measurements, he always pulls out the bad engineering card. I think you know what I mean. If measurements of a product show deviation from linearity creeping up below -100 dBFS, or an FFT shows spuria at the -120 dB level when some other products keep them all below -130 dB, the manufacturer will be accused of bad engineering. AS IF it's good engineering practice to spend effort chasing numbers that don't matter.
Another issue I have with trying to use Amir's measurements to judge & rank components is that I don't see him making enough of an effort to give each product a thorough evaluation. He's busy, so he typically performs a "drive by" review and if there are problems with how he did things, or things he should have done differently specific to the DUT, their discovery happens later and its buried in the comments. The review is not updated, and the headline/conclusion and ranking remain the same.
A good example of that was the first time he measured an A/V pre-pro.
The manufacturer specified a rated output of 2.4V for the XLR outputs, and a reference output level of 2V at 0 dB volume setting. Amir missed this when he measured it. Because it's an A/V pre-pro not a DAC and he was measuring the pre-amp output, the logical thing to do would have been to measure at reference volume (0 dB). Instead, he turned it up higher to get 4V from the XLR output with a full scale input. Several pages into the comments section, when the results were cross checked with others, it became evident that exceeding the rated output was highly likely to have generated the higher distortion he measured. But by then it was too late to re-measure.
Hi Dave. I think I'm mostly agreeing with almost all you said but maybe the difference is I am seeing opportunity for improvement and not reason to throw in the towel.But maybe you are overstating his focus on SINAD results in my opinion. I've noticed fairly considerable effort explaining/justifying his stated positions on it's audible significance.
Though, it must be rough satisfying his panel of online judges but at least he seems open to listening to criticism. I was impressed by this, especially during many of his phono preamp tests/reviews and their accompanying forum discussion and how the test process evolved as a result.
Which tests? I say give the people what they want! What is the online forum feedback saying? Maybe look at some of the areas used to market these devices? Start with the spec tables? He seems pretty open to questioning his process.
That we have been seeing the entire broadband plots rather than single points in a table, as an example is like a dream come true in my opinion. I keep pinching myself.
When I was in his forum interrogating him, for a couple posts, about how much weight can be put in using his measurements to evaluate the -120dB mains related spuria type defects, showing up in the various reviews. He seemed completely reasonable in my opinion. He said you can't. He also spent a bit a bit of effort explaining more detail of his process for me and a few of it's shortcomings and basically explaining why not to me. He seemed pretty cool about it.
I agree a professional certified lab would have all the relevant details about the level of environmental control which are in place for these tests such as cable routing, mains power quality, test chamber ambient rfi exposure levels dring testing, etc. etc., stated in bold letters right up front for all to see. There would also be no shifting of the evaluation methodology, the suite of tests performed, etc. midway into the data collection process.
All his test are not apples to apples. I don't think that means any of it is worthless. It's all relative, man! We just don't know how so. ha. I say, give the man a break since he keeps trying to be improving. There seems like a lot that is good even if it isn't up to the level of what a pro test lab might do or where he may eventually be able to get to after hes been ding it for many years.
Edit: Which review/s does he call out a company for power supply noise issues? I'm asking since I thought it was weird I kind of wondered if he was often possibly ignoring those powers supply frequency problems too much.
Edits: 10/22/19
Edit: Which review/s does he call out a company for power supply noise issues? I'm asking since I thought it was weird I kind of wondered if he was often possibly ignoring those powers supply frequency problems too much.
Sorry, just getting back to this thread. I've seen him comment on it in multiple reviews. The link below is an example.
The FFT shows odd order power supply harmonics at the -120 dB level, which get a mention. The only thing poking above -120 dB is the second harmonic at -90 dB. Amir called that "quite poor". Does anybody think 2nd harmonic at -90 dB is remotely audible?
Yeah I guess I see what you mean. If he is going to pick on a company for that, he needs to tell a little about what he did to try and make sure it wasn't just something peculiar to his setup, ie whether he fiddled around to see if it wasn't just how he had his cables or where he arranged the equipment etc. It's hard to say what happened for sure. Not enough detail given. Maybe some words about whether the SINAD test is noise or distortion limited and how much margin there is from whichever of the two is the dominant effect in each case.
I doubt many would find -90dB 2nd bothersome if they even heard it at all. Though it is very interesting and makes me wonder how they did it. Is it in analog or in software?
the only valuable measurement that one could ever make.....
The rest, - is just trolling and extrapolating another highly subjective opinion.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Because the output of one of the most accurate pieces of professional grade, analog test gear on the planet means nothing?
""Because the output of one of the most accurate pieces of professional grade, analog test gear on the planet means nothing?""
I wouldn't call his comparative listening skills "professional grade."
And the term "accurate" is so relative that it's meaningless....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
That Amir mostly only comments about what he thinks he's hearing when he thinks something is actually audible and he thinks he can hear it is perfect if you asked me. I wouldn't have him change a thing about that.
"And the term "accurate" is so relative that it's meaningless...."
Most of the reviews are commentary about how he's reading back results from his test gear. As long as he runs the tests as directed by the manufacturer, keeps the equipment calibrated, etc, the tests are presumably then completely relative to the gears specs as quoted by the manufacturer, ie terms the entire audio industry seems contented to do marketing with but in a much more traceable manner than most audio equipment manufacturer marketing "specs"....
That is kind of like the opposite of "meaningless" in my opinion.
The ONLY value is comparative listening experiences, and testimonials about longevity.
No component is "good" or "bad" outside of context. Even a Meitner sucks when you hook it up to your Sharp BoomBox. Of course, - no one does this.
These are experiences, and the best test of a "better" experience is to actually listen.....
A manufacturers specs are valuable only in a sense of a rough guideline to assist with the relationship of other components in SYSTEM.....
I wonder the last time Amir had more than one piece of high performance audio equipment on his bench?
I also have my doubts, - given the fact that his work amounts to cowardly trolling, - about his measuring gear. AKM's DAC analyzer cost over $30,000, - I am curious if he has anything like that. His measuring tests on John/Alex's LPS-1 was widely regarded as trolling, and simply put, - a joke. Amir's trolling falls right in line with pseudo-science postulated by that other troll, - Archimago.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
"The ONLY value is comparative listening experiences, and testimonials about longevity."
you later supplied a a somewhat believable counter-argument to this statement with the following:
"A manufacturers specs are valuable only in a sense of a rough guideline to assist with the relationship of other components in SYSTEM....."
I say "somewhat" because the only question here is regarding the roughness of the guideline in question. The equipment Amir uses appears to be fairly well specified by it's manufacturer.
That is a nice thing about when reviewers are using a common piece of commercially available test gear we can all download the manuals for and read all about if we want. Not that Amir has controlled for everything in the universe but it sure moves the bar alot higher for us to nit pick at what he's doing.
His measurements mean a quite a bit more than nothing. You said it yourself.
yes, when used by someone who does not even know how to work Windows Media Player or suss out a ground loop.
A Ferrari in the hands of a child is a dangerous thing.
Edits: 10/21/19
It's not as though he is running a calibrated emi lab. There is only so much one can accomplish without spending ultra dollars. But doing as well as possible with the equipment at hand seems a worthwhile conversation...
Amir has seemed open to answering questions about his test jig and methodology on his forum.
I can't recall any blatant intentional seeming hand waving, anyway.
If he is really failing to be diligent in the tests, why not educate him or make suggestions on what he's doing wrong?
What should Amir be doing that he is not already doing in your opinion?
The issues many have with Amir less to do with his technical ability to use the gear, than with his agenda, vigilante attitude, and his incredible over estimation of his skills to interpret the data.
I haven't seen a ton of evidence of much of an agenda than exposing what he's decided is "evil" and "undiscovered talent" in the industry.
The thing that has me wondering is why hasn't he managed to get his hands on any Burl Bombers, or Lavry DAC's etc. Where is the love/hate for the pro market?
He also tests phono preamps but has ironically resisted spending much effort on the many presumably questionable, by his apparent metric of bang for the buck, high priced pieces available in that sector.
I'll give you that he is a bit of a character, probably hard to take for some. What is with the Japanese lady Avatar? If that is, indeed, what that actually is. That one apparently went over my head, I guess.
Some serious whining there, Sr. Andre.
Amir is quite skilled with his analyzer, and works with the manufacturer to help audio designers and manufacturers improve their testing methods. His Agenda is to persuade the audio industry to raise standards and make even better performing audio gear.
How is that a negative attribute?
His analytical skills with are quite good, and a number of respected industry experts participate at ASR.
What are your skills and credentials with respect to audio equipment testing and analysis?
And why do you hide under an umbrella of multiple forum ID's and flail about as a sockpuppet?
Do you still use the handles Fair Hedon/Brinkman Ship/agtp/Ishmael Slapowitz/KeenObserver/Digital Assassin? Or do you need to keep inventing new ones as you display your anger around the audio forum universe?
Thanks for proving my points, Dave VH. Now all can see your true character and agenda.
And if anyone is taken in by Dave VH and his replies, understand that he is employing the dishonest common politician tactic known as a red herring. He does this often, but this most recent reply of his is a prime example. He'll fit in well at ASR.
P.S. I am not Andre, nor do I know who Dave VH is referring to. I shouldn't have to make this disclaimer, but feel that Dave will continue with this particular red herring until his diversion is successful. Please be aware of what Dave VH is engaged in here. Again, it is a common dirty politician trick in order to divert attention and raise doubt against critics.
Interesting tactic, Andre. Perhaps that isn't your real name - just another "pseudonym" that you use.
The again, you end all of this speculation, be a man, and identify yourself.
Why do you hide behind multiple pseudonyms?
And a keyboard in the hands of a sockpuppet is quite annoying...
One can certainly make a fetish of the numbers, and it takes an effort to keep things in perspective. But I think it better to have them than not.
I've got nothing against hobbyists measuring things. I make a lot of measurements myself (mostly acoustic though). The hard part is figuring out whether you're measuring something useful and what it means. The thing I don't like about ASR is watching people pass judgment on products based on arbitrarily selected measures of performance that haven't been demonstrated to be sonically relevant.
cult-of-personality fascism...
Electrical Engineering dogma actually interferes the proper application of the scientific method, and hence any kind of discovery.
FWIW, Excellent post on your part
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I have no idea where this false meme of desiring bad measurements comes from, although it is fostered by some of those whose audio ox has been gored.
Actually, most at ASR "drool with anticipation" at the prospect of another excellently designed and engineered piece of audio gear being tested, and found to be approaching SOTA standards. Many of us were very pleased to see Schiit respond to Amir's testing and evaluation with better engineering - while still keeping their quirky reputation.
Some ASR members have sent their personal gear in for testing, and if it was found to be not so great by the numbers - they accept that and continue to enjoy what their eyes and ears told them was a good component.
I find that level of openness and honesty refreshing.
And yes, it is primarily a technical (science and engineering) forum, and not yet another subjectivist audio forum. One might guess that its appeal would be limited - yet ASR has become incredibly popular among audio enthusiasts - young (the headphone and IEM crowd) and old (the amps and loudspeaker crowd).
Most regulars at ASR seem to believe that we should buy and own what we like, regardless of measurements - but it is interesting to know how a piece of kit measures. We believe that false advertising to the public is wrong, and back the practice of exposing that and sometimes even the outright fraud that is seen in the audio world.
People should participate at as many internet audio forums as they like - the most popular ones offer an interesting spectrum of approaches to the subject.
The fact that the Dear Leader endorsed MQA, which made him the laughing stock to any one but an ASR True Believer, shows how disingenuous he is.
It is not only anti consumer, but measures horribly, and marketed based on outright technical lies.
Yep, ASR apologists should read the main MQA thread. Amir was exposed, he abandoned the thread, then it was was locked. It was reopened, he was exposed even worse, and he abandoned the thread, again.
It will be amusing to see how the ASR fanboys spin this. Hard to claim the Dear Leader is pro science, pro consumer, and unbiased, or gives a damn about the truth.
It's also worth reading the comments section and links provided (of past dishonest Amir interactions) in the Archimago MQA blog.
Excellent references, thanks. The links put things is stark perceptive.
I could not find an endorsement of MQA by Amirm, do you have a link?There is, however, a 68-page discussion on MQA at ASR which I am not going to take time to read. The general attitude toward MQA at ASR is that is a money-making scheme that adds no value for the consumer.
Edits: 10/21/19
It's clear that Dave VH is not interested in honestly assessing any of the information presented. He is an ASR apologist/sycophant and will ignore any and all links presented. He posts cringe-worthy over the top praise/apologetics/promotion, which contradict the links and evidence he's directed to, and then runs off to show Amir what a loyal and devoted ASR member he is, practically begging for acknowledgment of his deeds. You must really want that ASR moderator position, Dave VH.Read the comments section and commenter links/references in the Archimago MQA blog and you'll see your entire position and ASR apologetics defeated. I know you're not really interested in that, Dave, you have a different agenda, but perhaps others will see what's really going on with your disingenuous responses.
Edits: 10/21/19
LOL, Andre. My agenda, like many participants both here and at ASR, is openness and honesty.
Actually, I don't "run off" to ASR, but I do spend a fair amount of time there daily (I'm retired), and hop over here occasionally to joust with a known troll/sockpuppet and visit my former favorite audio forum - AudioAsylum.
Hey people, recognize the complaining and whining style? Intelligent web wizards are aware that srjit is yet another sockpuppet name Andre is using here today.
Andre thinks that insults will frighten me off, but I have witnessed such troll and sockpuppet tactics - and challenged them - since my IT days in the 1990's.
Sorry, Andre, you've been outed.
And post after post after post defending MQA, putting Bob Stuart on a pedestal, trying to position himself as important industry insider, and insulting those who expose MQA based on technical facts.'
We should not be surprised that one charlatan has been duped by another.
Sorry, I am not interested in MQA and believe it to be a passing fad like the Elcassette. I know that Amir has expressed a liking for it, but it is just a fringe attempt at generating revenue and has no real value to music listeners. My collection ranges from simple 128Kbps from my early attempts at ripping, up to 192/24 flac, and I enjoy it all.
And I haven't seen any indication of Amir "pushing" or "promoting" MQA.
Like other occasional threads, when it became a nest of ad-homs and personal attacks, it was closed - but no posts were deleted that I am aware of.
The below quote from Archimago's forum kind of sums it up for me:
BTW, having taken a look at that long ASR thread on MQA, I sure don't see these purported "sheep" following whatever Amir says. Rather, I see something more like a pile-on from many, including ASR regulars, contesting Amir's view on MQA!
This is why, as I said, the characterizations I've seen here of ASR members as some bunch of guru-following sheep struck me as fairly suspicious (I see plenty of people giving different viewpoints there).
I will concede that Archimago documents pushback from the faithful on Amir's MQA love.
It is because he could not measure it or provide any technical data, it was way above his pay grade to do that, unlike Archimago, Paul Miller, or several others at CA.
Wow, I just discovered that I am jousting with the infamous Andre Marc, sockpuppet extraordinaire and veteran of multiple bannings across the spectrum of internet audio forums.
I feel honored to have encountered and gone toe-to-toe such a formidable foe!
How 'ya doin', Andre? Is the below really you?
Excuse me? I have no clue what you are on about.
Here:
NT
By the digits, eh?
As for the rest, I concur. (Bet that made your day!)
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