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In Reply to: RE: Not surprising in the least. This is why it's so easy to dup... posted by jamesgarvin on October 30, 2017 at 09:02:51
I would think its time for audio equipment reviewers to go to "musical school" to get some musical IQ!..... or the reviewer should stick to the Writing and leave what is heard to a more competent person who does have a "Musical IQ"
I think Charles is right on!
Since I have been Trained to have "Musical IQ" I would be happy to work for a Magazine to help them out with the unbiased listening part, I am no writer :)
Lawrence
Follow Ups:
> Since I have been Trained to have "Musical IQ" I would be happy to work for
> a Magazine to help them out with the unbiased listening part, I am no
> writer :)
My apologies, but after due consideration, your job application must be
turned down. :-)
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Ha.....There is some truth to my post, I am serious! what gives any other audio evaluation/writer the creds to be able to evaluate a piece of gear?, if all you have been exposed to is hifi?
Think about it
I say "independent" someone who communicate and tell truth
I am starting my company "LVH AudioEval" :)
I am copywriting Musical IQ
you heard it first here
Lawrence
> There is some truth to my post, I am serious! what gives any other audio
> evaluation/writer the creds to be able to evaluate a piece of gear?, if all
> you have been exposed to is hifi?
I responded humorously because I felt your point was self-evidently
incorrect. But as you have now repeated the criticism, I'll try again:
The majority of Stereophile's review team, past and present, play musical
instruments or sing in vocal ensembles. Some of us have done so
professionally. One of our team's day job is being a classical conductor
and music director. Some of us have played on commercially released
recordings; one of us even had a CD released of his own compositions.
In addition, all of us have collections of recordings that are worth more
than our audio systems and have a deep, abiding love of music.
So what makes you think we don't have what you call a "Musical IQ"?
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
> The majority of Stereophile's review team, past and present, play musical
> instruments or sing in vocal ensembles. Some of us have done so
> professionally.
For example, check out the video linked below, which features Stereophile
writer Erick Lichte conducing Canadian male-voice choir Chor Leoni in an
unpublished work by Lee Hoiby.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
> > For example, check out the video linked below, which features Stereophile
writer Erick Lichte conducing Canadian male-voice choir Chor Leoni in an
unpublished work by Lee Hoiby. < <
And that makes him a qualified reviewer exactly how?
> And that makes him a qualified reviewer exactly how?With respect, Charley, we are talking past each other. I never made that
claim. All I have done is explain to the original poster in this part of
the thread (who seems to have disappeared) that his describing Stereophile's
review team as not having a "musical IQ" and only listening to "hi-fi"
presumably rather than live music was not correct.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Edits: 11/03/17
Atkinson's obviously no dummy. But when one lacks solid listening skills as I'm quite certain he does, it's pretty impossible to fake it.
I think he's actually convinced himself that being a musician or singer is all it takes to possess solid listening skills.
That's why he keeps promoting his music background and that of his reviewing staff. And measurements too.
No he doesn't
This thread has in many ways been enlightening for me, especially the recounting of early history, but it has also sullied two of my audio icons, John Atkinson and Charlie Rose. Really Charles, I wouldn't have expected you to confuse then with than as so many do in audio threads, i.e., "new midrange driver was then the previous." How could anyone who came up with the title "Irrational, But Efficacious" do that?
db
> > I wouldn't have expected you to confuse then with than as so many do in audio threads < <
Apologies. I am fairly neurotic about correct spelling, grammar, and typos. But a bout with viral meningitis some 8 or 9 years ago left me with blind spots in my eyes, and now I frequently miss this kind of thing. Believe me, it irritates me far more that it does you. Apologies in advance, as I know there are many more to come. I can overcome it somewhat with various font magnifiers and so forth, but the penalty is a distinct lack of screen space (not worth it to me), so I just squint a lot and hope for the best.
Charley, I have no such visual excuse, but in rereading my post I see "has in many way been" separating the verb form, and that's something up with which I will not put -- nod to W. Churchill.
db
My least favorite form of humor is "slapstick". Watching people actually physically hurt other people is not funny to me in the least. Wordplay is much funnier to me, and the ability to laugh at one's own folly makes it even better. Cheers!
... that if a dealer, mfg'erer, or distributor needed a quick postive endorsement for their product, hire a musician or conductor.
I've known about this for years and my very limited experience with musicians seems to substantiate that.
Just one example might be the YG Acoustic speaker ads from a few years ago where some conductor listened to the speakers and exclaimed what he heard was indistinguishable from the live performance.
I've heard it said as possible justification is it's becasue of their love of music, to them everything sounds like live music.
I hate to generalize because I'm sure there exists fine musicians with sufficient or better listening skills and frankly I don't why this might be so. But in my limited experience, I can't say that I actually met one yet.
To the mainstream, having a musical background seems to be justification enough to possessing well-trained ears.
Then again, to the mainstream, being a recording engineer is sufficient justification to possessing well-trained ears.
Then again, to some in the mainstream, somebody who worked in a record store might be sufficient justification for possessing well-trained ears.
But then again, to some in the mainstream, all cables and all components sound identical because it's believed that they all preserve the fidelity of the input signal.
People go to an art museum and view a fine painting and because they are not blind, they automatically think they're capable of getting most everything out of the painting that the artist put into that painting.
The same goes with music. People think because they listen to music and passed a hearing test 2 years ago, they're convinced they are skilled listeners.
Shoot, even when Edison demo'ed his new phonograph, those in the audience claimed it sounded just like live.
This far and away has always been high-end audio's biggest problem and it seems nobody has taken any steps to improve that. Why is that?
In fact, with the invention of Google and the over-emphasis placed on a couple of measurements, I would attest that measurements (and high-priced equipment) are the new holy grail and matters are worse than ever.
I'm curious. If you think your staff possess sufficient listening skills what has Stereophile done to help educate or train their readership some who might have no listening skills whatsoever but would like to develop them? Wouldn't that be a step in the right direction and might that not actually improve Stereophile's subscription base while helping to elevate and educate its readers?
What importance does Stereophile put on listening skills both for its staff and for the industry in general?
With the amount of money, time, and resources many enthusiasts put into this hobby, don't you think the hobby might actually grow if Stereophile actually invested some time trying to nurture some of us to improve our listening skills?
Great post!
I have finally figured out why it is that musicians are well known for having horrible music systems. It's because we all have a memory of the music in our heads already. Musically talented people have a much stronger one.
The best musicians don't even need a stereo or other playback device. They can just look at a piece of sheet music and hear the music in their head as if they were in front of a live orchestra (which they have been many, many times).
If a piece of paper can do that, just think what a transistor radio can do... Both of my sons are incredible musicians. One is just like the stereotypical one and literally cannot tell the difference between crap sound and killer sound. The other one is more unusual as he can easily tell the difference, but it's usually not worth the trouble to get his Pono Player and Cardas IEMs to hear great sound quality when he can just play an MP3 on his Chinese smart phone and enjoy it almost as much.
This is something of a "mis-truth" which has somehow become part of the audio/hi-fi landscape.
In reality, it really depends on the musician and their "job". I am one, and have a nice stereo system, and I know other musicians who have very nice stereo systems.
I think that when you get into the very high echelons of musicians - people who practice AND rehearse or perform every day, stereo systems aren't all that important except to hear a performance and listen to the nuances of style and ensemble. Of course, even then, different musicians have different attitudes/thoughts about stereo systems. Some like a nice sounding system, others don't really care.
My last trumpet mentor, Pierre Thibaud, couldn't have cared less about stereo systems. He was totally involved in the real sound. On the other hand, my old beer-drinking and pizza buddy Roger Salander (Vienna Philharmonic) appreciated a good sound system.
As for me, I started out as a musician in my youth, but quickly became obsessed with SOUND and acoustics, so I'm a bit of a hybrid. I appreciate excellent musical performance and nuance, as well as great sound reproduction and sound reinforcement systems.
:)
Agree Charles ,Two of my kids play instruments and they really dont focus on HiFi sound, once i asked my son to practice his Trumpet in my listening room , HiFi is not even close and you can understand why most musicians just go Hmmm, OK.
As to HiFi the only time they ever commented was during my class-D phase , my daughter commented it didn't sound "live" anymore and my wife complained i was playing too loud ( i wasnt , it was normal levels) for the most part they are mostly Meh ...
There fascination is technology , we grew up in an era where our tech was HiFi , this imo is the disconnect .....
Regards
Edits: 11/01/17
> I have finally figured out why it is that musicians are well known for
> having horrible music systems. It's because we all have a memory of the
> music in our heads already.
All listening takes place in our heads. I discuss this in the section of my
2011 AES Richard Heyser Memorial Lecture linked below. Whether there
is an external sound or you're imagining that sound, your brain activity
is the same.
> Musically talented people have a much stronger one.
I wasn't claiming to be "talented" - though there is a song embedded in
the linked page where I play bass guitar and multiple overdubbed clarinets.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
All listening takes place in our heads along with that silly article in the link you posted to show how the mind can be decieved by its senses? Is this some kind of joke?
Where's your chapters on timbre, micro- and macro-dynamics, smearing, breakup, soundstage depth, width, and height, bass definition, sibliance, negative sibilance, harmonics, tonality, warmth, imaging, ambient info, spatiality, and a small host of other characteristics?
The problem is obviously far worse than I even thought. Is it any wonder high-end audio has been dying a slow death for over 20 years?
Yet, I'm not surprised. That is to say, not surprised by my findings but rather surprised by your apparent lack of defense and lack of listening as a priority.
p.s.
I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. All 5 of our senses (sight, hearing, touch, smell, and taste) take place in our heads.
Another reason a lot of musicians have crap systems is that they usually don't make much money. My 20 years in the studio confirmed for me that most professional musicians have poor listening skills. As stated it is usually because they are so used to listening to live music and there own instrument. They also hear there instrument from the opposite side that the listener hears it. They are also much closer to it
Alan
+1 for John Atkinson.
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the
most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Roger Waters
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